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oldcelt
Guest
We must be using different sources.
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thinkandmull
Guest
So oldcelt, you don’t believe it is metaphysically possible for God to see the future? Why?
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oldcelt
Guest
I don’t believe that we were discussing that. However, I’ll attempt an answer.
I do not envision God as you. My God is an un-observable, and un-kowable force. I believe (faith on my part) in that force as the first cause of creation and one that continues to create (observable, though not factually attributable).
So far as the infinite view…I have no idea or belief one way or the other. I do, however, believe that this force does not, and never has, interacted with humanity.
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thinkandmull
Guest
But you’ve been arguing for months on here against our idea of God and the only argument I see that you use is that He can’t have foreknowldge, that He can’t be encirclign time. Why?
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oldcelt
Guest
My argument is and has been, that a creator with infallible foreknowledge who still creates someone destined for hell is responsible for that person’s fate.
I do NOT believe that humans are an intentional creation of God…merely a result of initial creation. No foreknowledge, no direct creation. Whether my God possesses a foreknowledge of the overall plan for the universe…I can only speculate.
Why, how? Personal observation of life on earth and a study of that preceding my life.
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thinkandmull
Guest
The foreknowledge comes from the creation, not ontologicaly prior to it. Does that explain it?
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Richca
Guest
If you mean here that God’s foreknowledge is caused by the actual creation of the universe in the beginning of time, is simultaneous with it, flows from it, or comes after it, this is not correct. This would mean that God’s knowledge changed when he actually created the universe but God is immovable and He does not change nor does His knowledge change. God has had infinite knowledge from all eternity and from all eternity before He created the universe of creatures.
Now, I think I see what you are trying to get at or say and it is something I too have thought about and wondered. I have also thought about whether what I’m thinking here is consistent with what St Thomas Aquinas says about God’s eternity and His knowledge of vision and whether if it is actually what he is saying. And to be honest, I’m not sure.
Anyhow, when you say that God’s foreknowledge comes from creation, I think that this could only possibly work in that before God actually fashioned things in their own beings by the very act of creation, He knows them in His infinite knowledge beforehand. For example, God knew from all eternity that he would create you and I which means that before we actually came into existence in our own beings, we existed in the mind of God, in His knowledge, or as ideas as the theologians say. And knowing that He would create us at some point in time from all eternity, he also could see what we would do with our lives and our free will even before we actually existed. So, in one sense, in this model, God’s foreknowledge comes from the things (or ideas) he would actually create in time as He could see the whole course of time in His eternity and knowledge before he actually created them.
A difficulty with this model is that St Thomas says that God’s knowledge united with His will is the cause of things, i.e., things are not the cause of His knowledge. But, St Thomas here may be referring to creatures that have already been created by God. In this sense, creatures having actual existence in their own beings are not the cause of God’s knowledge for He knew them from all eternity. But, if we understand creation and the whole course of time as being in God’s knowledge from all eternity, then it appears to me that their may be no contradiction here to what St Thomas says that God’s knowledge united with His will is the cause of things. For these things before God actually creates them in time, are in his knowledge from all eternity and God’s knowledge is his essence and substance.
As I said, whether this example or model is correct or in accord with what St Thomas says, I’m not sure presently without further study and reflection.
Here is another example I think may possibly help. Take someone who wants to build a computer. This person draws up blueprints for it. He knows exactly where each part is going to go, what is its purpose, and how it works. The builder knows exactly how the whole computer functions and the purpose of each part. The builder then forms this “idea” in matter and we have a computer. This is somewhat similar to God creating the world. God first forms the ideas of all things, what is its purpose, how it is suppose to work, where it is to be placed, and so on down to the minutest details. One difference between the builder of the computer and God is that the computer builder uses pre-existing materials with pre-existing natures. God, on the other hand, in creating the world, used no pre-existing material nor pre-existing materials with pre-existing natures. He is rather the author and creator of both from nothing. Another difference is that the computer is a machine that can only operate in a deterministic fashion according to the laws of nature and how it is programmed by the computer builder. Human beings, on the other hand, have a free will that is not determined by nature to only one effect, but it is contingent. However, God by his knowledge of vision and transcendent intellect has foreknowledge of all that they will do in time.
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thinkandmull
Guest
What we have to avoid, however, is the idea that God knew a guy called Jim would go to hell, and yet created him anyway. To avoid this, we understand that God chooses to create and than after knows from all eternity what will happen from His eternal vision of time, which He encircles. The non-Catholics on this forum are having trouble understanding this though
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oldcelt
Guest
Question: How do you suppose to know that? The rest of your explanation sounds very Deist. In what microsecond was that all determined by a God beyond time? Just food for thought.
John
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AyJSimon
Guest
No. Where did creation get the foreknowledge?
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tonyrey
Guest
From a strictly philosophical point of view of course, but the truth of Christ’s teaching shines by its own light and it corresponds perfectly to the way He lived and died. There is no greater love:
Matthew 5:44-46
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Outside of time there are no microseconds.
Time started when the universe was created. Time is part of the fabric of our universe.
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oldcelt
Guest
I agree entirely. I will add, that the notion that all creation, including humanity, occurred at the same instant, as some here have suggested, does not stand up to observable evidence. Even if a deity can exist out of time, that deity must still be aware of and working within time to create in this universe.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
God can be aware of the working of time yet still observe the universe from a position which allows all events in the history of the universe to be observed.
Sequential events outside of the universe might follow a completely different pattern.
For example, perhaps events move in a cycle, where an occurrence is both before and after another occurrence. Only God knows…
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Richca
Guest
We must distinguish or at least as our catholic belief does, between God’s eternal knowledge and actual creation. We believe from divine revelation that the world or the universe of creatures are not eternal as God is. Although there is no before and after in God, he knows and understands as we can that he is “prior” to the world. God existed from all eternity before the creation of the world. The creation of the world and everything that happens in it God has known from eternity by one act of his intellect from eternity. By one act of his intellect from all eternity, God knows all things. But, this doesn’t mean that creation is eternal. Creation happened when God from all eternity willed it to happen.
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belorg
Guest
When did God begin to will creation? I think the answer is that God’s will is eternal, so how can you say that creation is not eternal although it was eternally willed by God, by an eternal act of his intellect
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tonyrey
Guest
It is impossible for us to understand the nature of God fully but St Paul gives us a clue to His relationship with what He has created:
(Acts 17:28)
God doesn’t change but He causes change. Neither do we lose our identity when we create something. We remain fundamentally the same persons regardless of what we do or what happens to us. In that sense we transcend time and space like God. Once a person always a person!
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Richca
Guest
This is a good question. God certainly has an eternal will as he is eternal and by one act of his will from all eternity he wills all things. Since God is unchangable, his will does not change. At first glance of this, some might draw the conclusion that the world must be eternal too then. However, this does not necessarily follow. Although God had the eternal will to produce an eternal effect, it was not in his eternal will to do so. He willed to create when from all eternity he had willed to do so. God is a voluntary agent.
The question then, “When did God begin to will creation” in its wording cannot be applied to God because there is no beginning or end, before or after in God. He is eternal and his will is eternal.
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tonyrey
Guest
An eternal act of will doesn’t entail an eternal result!
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tonyrey
Guest
And always the same person regardless of everything else…
This is one case where an eternal act of will does entail an eternal result because it is intended - although it may not be precisely the same for everyone!
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