Molinism, Predestination, Free Will, Grace?!

  • Thread starter Thread starter seakelp
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
seakelp said:
I’m confused.

I was talking about predestination today with a friend, who brought up the argument that it is difficult to square God’s omniscience with free will. If God knows who is going to heaven, and who is going to hell, how is it possible to have free will? I tried to explain that foreknowledge and cause are not the same thing, but I still spent a while googling away and reading about the question.

Unfortunately, that left me more confused than ever before.

One theory I read about is Molinism: which, and correct me if I’m wrong, understands the whole idea this way. God knows all possible realities, and therefore, knows that if A is placed in X circumstance, A will choose F. My understanding is that, in this way, the free choice of A is reconciled with God’s omniscience.

But that left me more confused. If God knows all possible realities, why not create one where all are presented with conditions by which they are saved? Then there is still a free choice, and everyone can enjoy Heaven.

Thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
Read Romans. St. Paul writes about God permitted Pharoah to harden his heart.
 
Richca said:
This is a good question. God certainly has an eternal will as he is eternal and by one act of his will from all eternity he wills all things. Since God is unchangable, his will does not change. At first glance of this, some might draw the conclusion that the world must be eternal too then. However, this does not necessarily follow. Although God had the eternal will to produce an eternal effect, it was not in his eternal will to do so. He willed to create when from all eternity he had willed to do so. God is a voluntary agent.

The question then, “When did God begin to will creation” in its wording cannot be applied to God because there is no beginning or end, before or after in God. He is eternal and his will is eternal.
Click to expand...
I am sorry, but none of this answers my question. If the will to create the universe is eternal and God is unchanging, then God’s creative act must be eternal too. And since God’s creative act is a necessary and sufficient condition for the universe, the universe must be eternal too.
 
belorg said:
An eternal creative act does entail an eternal result, though.
Click to expand...
An eternal creative act certainly entails an eternal result - such as an eternal transformation caused by individuals created with the power of self-determination. 🙂
 
belorg said:
Something that is caused causes itself to be caused in a certain way. That sure sounds illogical enough to me, whether in the natural or the supernatural order.
Click to expand...
It is only illogical if we interpret all events in terms of physical causes - which are an inadequate explanation of our power to think creatively, independently and responsibly. When all is said and done persons are not things!
 
tonyrey said:
It is only illogical if we interpret all events in terms of physical causes - which are an inadequate explanation of our power to think creatively, independently and responsibly. When all is said and done persons are not things!
Click to expand...
This has nothing to do with physical causes. It’s simple logic, nothing more.
 
belorg said:
This has nothing to do with physical causes. It’s simple logic, nothing more.
Click to expand...
It is only simple logic if one assumes** all** causes are in the same category. No one has ever proved that the concept of the Uncaused Cause is illogical.
 
belorg said:
I am sorry, but none of this answers my question. If the will to create the universe is eternal and God is unchanging, then God’s creative act must be eternal too. And since God’s creative act is a necessary and sufficient condition for the universe, the universe must be eternal too.
Click to expand...
As I said, this does not necessarily follow and thus it cannot be philosophically demonstrated that the world is eternal. The creation of the world depends on the will of God and it was not in God’s eternal will that the world should be eternal. God created the world when from all eternity He willed to do so. Nor does the creation of the world involve a change in God’s will because He created the world when from all eternity he willed to do so.
 
AyJSimon said:
No. Where did creation get the foreknowledge?
Click to expand...
Creation does has the foreknowledge. God does, who surrounds time, being outside of it,

Oldcelt, we are offering philosophical explanations that make perfect sense to us.
 
belorg said:
I am sorry, but none of this answers my question. If the will to create the universe is eternal and God is unchanging, then God’s creative act must be eternal too. And since God’s creative act is a necessary and sufficient condition for the universe, the universe must be eternal too.
Click to expand...
You are having problems with the idea of eternity vs time.

But in a sense the world is eternal. There was nothing before it
 
thinkandmull said:
You are having problems with the idea of eternity vs time.

But in a sense the world is eternal. There was nothing before it
Click to expand...
God was before the world from all eternity. The world is not eternal. “In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth.”
 
tonyrey said:
It is only simple logic if one assumes** all** causes are in the same category. No one has ever proved that the concept of the Uncaused Cause is illogical.
Click to expand...
My objection works for all categories of causes, including an uncaused cause.
 
thinkandmull said:
You are having problems with the idea of eternity vs time.

But in a sense the world is eternal. There was nothing before it
Click to expand...
No, I don’t have a problem with the idea of eternity versus time. I think I have a pretty good understanding of what it entails, and indeed if an eternal unchanging god creatd the world, the world is necessarily eternal.
 
"tonyrey:
Please explain or refer me to a previous post.
Click to expand...
Here is where I explained it, Tony.
belorg said:
I am sorry, but none of this answers my question. If the will to create the universe is eternal and God is unchanging, then God’s creative act must be eternal too. And since God’s creative act is a necessary and sufficient condition for the universe, the universe must be eternal too.
Click to expand...
 
belorg said:
I am sorry, but none of this answers my question. If the will to create the universe is eternal and God is unchanging, then God’s creative act must be eternal too. And since God’s creative act is a necessary and sufficient condition for the universe, the universe must be eternal too.
Click to expand...
But then, belorg, everything God creates must be eternal! The term seems to lose its significance because we still have to distinguish temporal events within the context of eternity.
 
belorg said:
And since God’s creative act is a necessary and sufficient condition for the universe, the universe must be eternal too.
Click to expand...
The universe, and time as we know it, were created by God. The universe has a beginning and an ending. God does not.
 
tonyrey said:
But then, belorg, everything God creates must be eternal! The term seems to lose its significance because we still have to distinguish temporal events within the context of eternity.
Click to expand...
Yes, everything God creates must be eternal and if something isn’t eternal, the answer is quite simple, though you probably won’t like it: God did not create it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top