Molinism, Predestination, Free Will, Grace?!

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God doesn’t cause you to act. He creates you, you act. That was known beforehand in the supernatural realm. Try to expand your mind.
 
thinkandmull said:
God doesn’t cause you to act. He creates you, you act. That was known beforehand in the supernatural realm. Try to expand your mind.
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I was answering your claim that “God wills to create, then has foreknowledge, then we are come into existence, giving the source for the foreknowledge”.

To translate this, we get,

The source of the foreknowledge causes the foreknowledge needed for God to cause the cause of his foreknowledge. Or: something that is caused causes itself to be caused in a certain way.
 
God doesn’t need the foreknowledge to will to create.

You are still not getting this…
 
God wills to create and has foreknowledge at exactly the same time.

Not only can God do that–God can also predestine while simultaneously giving man free will.

God can also predestine the elect to Heaven while also NOT predestining anyone to Hell–doing both without contradiction.

In fact–God can do all these things without contradiction.

His wisdom and logic are beyond human wisdom and logic and human PHILOSOPHY!

A truly wise man is not bothered by the fact that he can not understand or explain everything!
 
thinkandmull said:
God doesn’t need the foreknowledge to will to create.

You are still not getting this…
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“God wills to create, then has foreknowledge, then we are come into existence, giving the source for the foreknowledge”

He needs the foreknwoledge to know what he is going to create.
 
Jerry-Jet said:
God wills to create and has foreknowledge at exactly the same time.

Not only can God do that–God can also predestine while simultaneously giving man free will.

God can also predestine the elect to Heaven while also NOT predestining anyone to Hell–doing both without contradiction.

In fact–God can do all these things without contradiction.

His wisdom and logic are beyond human wisdom and logic and human PHILOSOPHY!

A truly wise man is not bothered by the fact that he can not understand or explain everything!
Click to expand...
As I said, if that’s the case, there is no need for philosophy and I suggest the moderators over here close the philosophy forum altogether.
 
belorg said:
“God wills to create, then has foreknowledge, then we are come into existence, giving the source for the foreknowledge”

He needs the foreknwoledge to know what he is going to create.
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The relationship between eternity and time is different than that. You think you have a point against Catholic doctrine here but you are really just not having deep enough thoughts. He doesn’t need foreknowledge to know what He is going to create. He creates and thus has foreknowledge, but there is the eternity dimension and the temporal dimension
 
thinkandmull said:
The relationship between eternity and time is different than that. You think you have a point against Catholic doctrine here but you are really just not having deep enough thoughts. He doesn’t need foreknowledge to know what He is going to create. He creates and thus has foreknowledge, but there is the eternity dimension and the temporal dimension
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So God creates without knowledge? Why do we need a personal creator then?
I think you are the one who are no having deep enough thoughts.
 
God’s knowledge of what happens in time comes ontologically after He decides to create time’s dimension. Its like the Father being prior to the Son
 
oldcelt said:
Precisely, and there is no logical way around it. If God creates knowing the outcome…that God is responsible.

John
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We are responsible for our choices whether or not God knows what we will choose, unless you believe that God coerces our choices.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
We are responsible for our choices whether or not God knows what we will choose, unless you believe that God coerces our choices.
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God creates our choices. That’s what makes him ultimately responsible. If I had foreknowledge of your choices, that wouldn’t make me responsible for them, because I didn’t create the environment in which you choose what you choose.
 
AyJSimon said:
God creates our choices. That’s what makes him ultimately responsible. If I had foreknowledge of your choices, that wouldn’t make me responsible for them, because I didn’t create the environment in which you choose what you choose.
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Environment doesn’t dictate choices. Often our choices create our environment.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
Environment doesn’t dictate choices. Often our choices create our environment.
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Environment most certainly does dictate choices. Literally every decision you make is, at least, influenced by the environment you’re choosing it in.
 
God creates and then has the foreknowledge of what happened. He created the environment where people can choose great good, but to do that that they have to have the possibility of choosing wrong. That is what Christians are saying. Its not illogical
 
thinkandmull said:
God creates and then has the foreknowledge of what happened. He created the environment where people can choose great good, but to do that that they have to have the possibility of choosing wrong. That is what Christians are saying. Its not illogical
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It’s not - but it misses the point - a God who creates everything and has foreknowledge is responsible for all of it - the good and the bad.
 
AyJSimon said:
It’s not - but it misses the point - a God who creates everything and has foreknowledge is responsible for all of it - the good and the bad.
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Where is the evidence that this is true? It is not a logical necessity. Not by that arguments presented here.
 
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