Molinism, Predestination, Free Will, Grace?!

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Richca said:
The apparent dilemma you propose, namely, either God is omniscient and humans have no free will or humans have free will and God is not omniscient we cannot admit nor does it stand to reason.
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No, the full dilemma I propose is that, if God created Everything in the Universe, AND if God has perfect foreknowledge of all future events, then free will cannot exist. And the example again - if You created the Universe, and it’s comprised only of the room I’m in right now, AND if You have perfect foreknowledge of everything that will ever happen in this room (including how I behave), then it’s not logically possible for me to have free will. Not even an all-powerful God can circumvent this logical syllogism ('God can do anything, ‘cause he’s God!’), anymore than God can create the stone so heavy that he can’t lift it.

Now, if you can’t concede that either point about your God isn’t true, that isn’t really my problem. But that you can’t concede either/or does not, in any way, reverse the force of my argument and make free will more likely.
Can you demonstrate that either God is not omniscient or human beings do not have free will? If you hold that God is omniscient and humans have no free will, then God is the cause of evil or moral fault which isn’t logical. If you hold that God is not omniscient then God’s knowledge is limited or finite but God is infinite with infinite knowledge. It appears to me that it is not that complicated.
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When you beg the question this way, nothing seems that complicated.
 
You have previous knowledge of what happens in the room from what the person chooses in the room. You are not recognizing the depth and weight of what we are claiming because you are fighting with a strawman
 
AyJSimon said:
No, the full dilemma I propose is that, if God created Everything in the Universe, AND if God has perfect foreknowledge of all future events, then free will cannot exist. .
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If you are watching a pre-recorded sporting event, and you know who is going to win, does that mean that the players did not have free will when they played the game?
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
If you are watching a pre-recorded sporting event, and you know who is going to win, does that mean that the players did not have free will when they played the game?
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No, but this is not analogous to to foreknowledge. Foreknowledge entails that the recording of tomorrow’s sporting event exists today. That’s a totally different situation because it means that what the players are going to do tomorrow is true today and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
 
belorg said:
No, but this is not analogous to to foreknowledge. Foreknowledge entails that the recording of tomorrow’s sporting event exists today. That’s a totally different situation because it means that what the players are going to do tomorrow is true today and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
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I believe this post creates a straw man of God’s knowledge. God does not have a yesterday nor a tomorrow. God knows because he is present at all times and places.
 
belorg said:
No, but this is not analogous to to foreknowledge. Foreknowledge entails that the recording of tomorrow’s sporting event exists today. That’s a totally different situation because it means that what the players are going to do tomorrow is true today and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
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I think it is a good analogy. You can’t change the events on a recorded sporting event, but the events were not preordained.

That’s an identical situation.
 
CHESTERTONRULES said:
I think it is a good analogy. You can’t change the events on a recorded sporting event, but the events were not preordained.

That’s an identical situation.
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It’s an absurd analogy, because it ignores half my argument. I didn’t create the sport, or the players, or the rules, or all the conditions under which the game was played.
 
AyJSimon said:
It’s an absurd analogy, because it ignores half my argument. I didn’t create the sport, or the players, or the rules, or all the conditions under which the game was played.
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If you created the players so that it was their decisions which determined the outcome, it is an apt analogy.
 
davidv said:
If you created the players so that it was their decisions which determined the outcome, it is an apt analogy.
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But if I have perfect foreknowledge of all the decisions made by the players I created, then it’s not.
 
davidv said:
Only if you can prove that knowledge equals cause.
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Irrelevant. If I create a sentient being and have perfect foreknowledge of everything it will ever do, then its actions are completely determined.
 
AyJSimon said:
Because it’s the logically necessary conclusion. Try to find a way out of it that doesn’t beg the question, or ignore half the argument.
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If it is logical, then show the necessary premises with valid intermediary conclusions. As it stands, the leap from premise (omniscience) to conclusion (determined) is too great and cannot be logically supported.
 
davidv said:
If it is logical, then show the necessary premises with valid intermediary conclusions. As it stands, the leap from premise (omniscience) to conclusion (determined) is too great and cannot be logically supported.
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Ignoring half my argument again.
 
davidv said:
Really?
If half your argument is wrong, the whole argument fails.
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Neither half of my argument is wrong, according to Christians. Unless you want to be the first one to tell me that God didn’t create everything, or doesn’t have perfect foreknowledge.

I’ll wait.
 
davidv said:
I believe this post creates a straw man of God’s knowledge. God does not have a yesterday nor a tomorrow. God knows because he is present at all times and places.
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What is important here is whther the past, the present and the future are fixed. It seems that, if divine foreknoledge is true, that is the case. So, no straw man.
 
belorg said:
What is important here is whther the past, the present and the future are fixed. It seems that, if divine foreknoledge is true, that is the case. So, no straw man.
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Depends on what you me by “fixed”. If you mean predetermined by God, it is not fixed. If you mean fixed by our choices, these are not determined by God’s knowledge.
 
belorg said:
What is important here is whther the past, the present and the future are fixed. It seems that, if divine foreknoledge is true, that is the case. So, no straw man.
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It is a straw man. Each individual makes free choices. God knows what we will choose. God does not choose for us.

Simple enough?
 
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