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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Wrong. In fact, we often choose our envirnoment. We choose whether to attend Church or play golf on Sunday morning, for example.
Our choices create the environment we live in.
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Our choices create the environment we live in.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
True, just as a parent is responsible for all their children doIt’s not - but it misses the point - a God who creates everything and has foreknowledge is responsible for all of it - the good and the bad.
God weighed the good and the bad and decided to good justified the bad.
That doesn’t change the freedom of each individual to choose what is right.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!
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AyJSimon
Guest
If it rains on Sunday, you’re not playing golf… If the church burns down on Saturday, you’re not going to church on Sunday.Wrong. In fact, we often choose our envirnoment. We choose whether to attend Church or play golf on Sunday morning, for example.
Our choices create the environment we live in.
Your actions do affect the environment, but the choices you make have everything to do with the environment as it existed immediately before you made the choice to act.
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AyJSimon
Guest
If you had foreknowledge of my every future thought and action, and you created both me, and the room I’m in right now, down to the last atom, in what sense do I have free will?True, just as a parent is responsible for all their children do
God weighed the good and the bad and decided to good justified the bad.
That doesn’t change the freedom of each individual to choose what is right.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!
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AyJSimon
Guest
There is no compelling evidence that God even exists, much less that he created everything and has omniscience. I’m simply arguing from the basis or rudimentary Christian theology, as though it were true.Where is the evidence that this is true? It is not a logical necessity. Not by that arguments presented here.
Frankly, if you grant that God knows everything you’ll ever do, and that God created everything in the Universe, including you, then logically, I don’t see any way to assert that we have free will.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Environment does not dictate, it influences. Our choices rule supreme. We have free will.If it rains on Sunday, you’re not playing golf… If the church burns down on Saturday, you’re not going to church on Sunday.
Your actions do affect the environment, but the choices you make have everything to do with the environment as it existed immediately before you made the choice to act.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
God wants us to love. Love is impossible without free will.There is no compelling evidence that God even exists, much less that he created everything and has omniscience. I’m simply arguing from the basis or rudimentary Christian theology, as though it were true.
Frankly, if you grant that God knows everything you’ll ever do, and that God created everything in the Universe, including you, then logically, I don’t see any way to assert that we have free will.
If a good God exists, we have free will.
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davidv
Guest
So why are who arguing that this non-existent being is the cause of anything?There is no compelling evidence that God even exists, much less that he created everything and has omniscience. I’m simply arguing from the basis or rudimentary Christian theology, as though it were true.
It has never been demonstrated logically the knowledge equals cause.Frankly, if you grant that God knows everything you’ll ever do, and that God created everything in the Universe, including you, then logically, I don’t see any way to assert that we have free will.
Why is what you see, or not see, the measure of what is true?
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oldcelt
Guest
Infallible Knowledge + creation = Cause Pretty logical to me.So why are who arguing that this non-existent being is the cause of anything?
It has never been demonstrated logically the knowledge equals cause.
Why is what you see, or not see, the measure of what is true?
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oldcelt
Guest
I absolutely agree…but for very different reasons.Environment does not dictate, it influences. Our choices rule supreme. We have free will.
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AyJSimon
Guest
Because that’s what you believe. It shows the strength of my argument that I’m willing to play your rules and still win the game.So why are who arguing that this non-existent being is the cause of anything?
I could very easily argue that free will is an illusion outside of any reference to God. But I’d rather grant God’s existence and essence (as it’s assumed by Christians) and show how, even if such a being existed, we still wouldn’t have free will
It’s not. But I’m making the stronger logical argument. If I created you and the room you’re in right now, down to the last atom, and I have foreknowledge of everything you’ll ever do in that room, then logically, you can’t have free will to act in that room.It has never been demonstrated logically the knowledge equals cause.
Why is what you see, or not see, the measure of what is true?
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davidv
Guest
Prove it. What you have presented is an illogical non-sequitur. There is a huge undocumented leap from premise to conclusion.Because that’s what you believe. It shows the strength of my argument that I’m willing to play your rules and still win the game.
I could very easily argue that free will is an illusion outside of any reference to God. But I’d rather grant God’s existence and essence (as it’s assumed by Christians) and show how, even if such a being existed, we still wouldn’t have free will
It’s not. But I’m making the stronger logical argument. If I created you and the room you’re in right now, down to the last atom, and I have foreknowledge of everything you’ll ever do in that room, then logically, you can’t have free will to act in that room.
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AyJSimon
Guest
The burden of proof isn’t on me. It’s on you to show how you can have free will in a Universe where everything within is created by a being with perfect foreknowledge of everything that will ever happen.Prove it. What you have presented is an illogical non-sequitur. There is a huge undocumented leap from premise to conclusion.
I’ll even make it easier. All you have to do is admit that either God didn’t create everything, or that he’s not omniscient. And then you’re off the hook. Well, mostly - free will would be an illusion - but at least your syllogism wouldn’t be so bad.
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davidv
Guest
Why should anyone accept this illogic? You present yet another logical fallacy, a false dichotomy.The burden of proof isn’t on me. It’s on you to show how you can have free will in a Universe where everything within is created by a being with perfect foreknowledge of everything that will ever happen.
I’ll even make it easier. All you have to do is admit that either God didn’t create everything, or that he’s not omniscient. And then you’re off the hook. Well, mostly - free will would be an illusion - but at least your syllogism wouldn’t be so bad.
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AyJSimon
Guest
If you don’t want to engage on a substantive level, I’d prefer you not reply at all, rather than waste bandwidth.Why should anyone accept this illogic? You present yet another logical fallacy, a false dichotomy.
Burden of proof aside, if you had a better argument than mine, you’d present it. You don’t and you can’t and you know it.
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davidv
Guest
If pointing out failures in logic is not substantive, then there is nothing to engage in.If you don’t want to engage on a substantive level, I’d prefer you not reply at all, rather than waste bandwidth.
Burden of proof aside, if you had a better argument than mine, you’d present it. You don’t and you can’t and you know it.
Since this a public forum, I will choose when I reply, whether you consider it a waste, or not…
Note also that this is a direct quote for your initial post on this thread.
This positive claim has not been justified.It isn’t just about God’s foreknowledge of human events. It’s about the fact that God created everyone of which he has foreknowledge. That’s why God’s essence is not compatible with our having free will.
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AyJSimon
Guest
I did support it - by way of example. Read it again. You didn’t point out any failure in logic. You simply asserted it as self-evident, absent any supporting ideas. Ideas that you hold the burden of providing in the first place. If you could beat my argument, you’d have done it already. Instead, what you’re doing amounts to sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘La La La.’If pointing out failures in logic is not substantive, then there is nothing to engage in.
Since this a public forum, I will choose when I reply, whether you consider it a waste, or not…
Note also that this is a direct quote for your initial post on this thread.
This positive claim has not been justified.
By the way, you’re compelled to keep replying with nonsense because you haven’t the free will to choose otherwise.
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davidv
Guest
Please demonstrate that it is nonsense. I am choosing not to report the clearly uncharitable personal remarks made above.I did support it - by way of example. Read it again. You didn’t point out any failure in logic. You simply asserted it as self-evident, absent any supporting ideas. Ideas that you hold the burden of providing in the first place. If you could beat my argument, you’d have done it already. Instead, what you’re doing amounts to sticking your fingers in your ears and going ‘La La La.’
By the way, you’re compelled to keep replying with nonsense because you haven’t the free will to choose otherwise.
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oldcelt
Guest
You have been answered twice, David. You just don’t like the answers.Please demonstrate that it is nonsense. I am choosing not to report the clearly uncharitable personal remarks made above.
John
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Richca
Guest
Philosophically or logically, we cannot admit either that God did not create the world as if there is no first cause of it, that God is not omniscient, i.e., without infinite knowledge, or that human beings have no free will, i.e., that there is no such thing as moral fault or evil or sin, justice, reward or punishment, or personal responsibility. I suggest you read St Thomas Aquinas if your interested philosophically about these matters.The burden of proof isn’t on me. It’s on you to show how you can have free will in a Universe where everything within is created by a being with perfect foreknowledge of everything that will ever happen.
I’ll even make it easier. All you have to do is admit that either God didn’t create everything, or that he’s not omniscient. And then you’re off the hook. Well, mostly - free will would be an illusion - but at least your syllogism wouldn’t be so bad.
The apparent dilemma you propose, namely, either God is omniscient and humans have no free will or humans have free will and God is not omniscient we cannot admit nor does it stand to reason. Can you demonstrate that either God is not omniscient or human beings do not have free will? If you hold that God is omniscient and humans have no free will, then God is the cause of evil or moral fault which isn’t logical. If you hold that God is not omniscient then God’s knowledge is limited or finite but God is infinite with infinite knowledge. It appears to me that it is not that complicated.
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