Moral Dilemma re. a wedding

[aicirt]

My cousin has just had a baby with his fiance, they are soon to be married. Little Baby B will be about 6 months old. My cousin is just about to finish his PhD at University and is unemployed, Baby B’s Mummy works at the University on a minimum wage. They do not have a lot of money, but they get by.

My Aunt (Cousin’s Mum), My Mum (Cousin’s God-Mother) and my other Aunts and Uncles will all be rallying around and paying for little bits and pieces as Wedding Gifts for the soon-to-be-happily married couple.

They are having a HUGE wedding day, white dress, veil, cake, nice car, reception, the lot and y’know what, I hope they really, really enjoy themselves. As it has been mentioned previously, this is the ONE day that they are going to get married, if they want to spend £100 or £100,000 it is no one’s business but theirs and whomsoever happens to be helping to pay for the wedding for them. (In the OP’s case, they are paying for the wedding entirely themselves so what is the problem?!)

If they feel they are capable of paying for their perfect wedding day and still supporting their newborn who’s place is it to judge their apparent ‘attitude problems’ simply because the Bride happened to mention what she wanted for her ONE wedding day?!

It seems to me that the OP doesn’t want to, at least in part, go to the wedding because of the Baby, well, again as I’m sure has been previously mentioned, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. All sins are the same in God’s eyes whether that is sex before marriage or picking a sweet out of the pick-n-mix and eating it without paying for it. You have still broken one of God’s commandments.

Just because poor Jane’s sin appears to be more ‘visible’ than others does not mean that she should be harshly judged and denied the wedding she has always dreamed of. I’m sure plenty of ‘good Catholic couples’ have had sex before marriage and because their fornication did not end in a baby, they have been allowed to marry in the way that they wished with no one judging their choices.

If financial situations were always taken into account when it came to weddings, heck, I’m getting married in a car park, with no guests, wearing my work uniform, because there’s no way I’ll be able to pay for the wedding I want without help!

Your family is paying for the wedding.

This girl who doesn’t have a job and is on welfare and estranged from her family, is going into debt for something that isn’t necessary. She doesn’t want simplicity. She wants a “do”. This would indicate to me expense.

There has to be some help coming considering the expense. It must be the groom’s parents that are helping because I don’t know how they’d even get the deposits for the things required.

There is nothing anyone can do about her decision. She can do what ever she wants even put them in debt, a debt which is totally avoidable.

I would put that in the category of greed. She is supported by welfare. She can’t even afford her own food. Greed is a sin.

Unfortunately, it is a sign of our culture. Don’t have the money, charge it. Can’t pay? Parents will bail you out or the government. Never take responsibility for your decisions. Don’t be prudent. If you want it, you are entitled. Don’t have any money but so what.

And it isn’t about the bride “mentioning” what she wanted for her wedding day. What she said was a very willful statement. She will have what she wants and she doesn’t care who suffers.

 

[GodIsGracious]

Your family is paying for the wedding.

This girl who doesn’t have a job and is on welfare and estranged from her family, is going into debt for something that isn’t necessary. She doesn’t want simplicity. She wants a “do”. This would indicate to me expense.

There has to be some help coming considering the expense. It must be the groom’s parents that are helping because I don’t know how they’d even get the deposits for the things required.

There is nothing anyone can do about her decision. She can do what ever she wants even put them in debt, a debt which is totally avoidable.

I would put that in the category of greed. She is supported by welfare. She can’t even afford her own food. Greed is a sin.

Unfortunately, it is a sign of our culture. Don’t have the money, charge it. Can’t pay? Parents will bail you out or the government. Never take responsibility for your decisions. Don’t be prudent. If you want it, you are entitled. Don’t have any money but so what.

And it isn’t about the bride “mentioning” what she wanted for her wedding day. What she said was a very willful statement. She will have what she wants and she doesn’t care who suffers.

Wow. Well, ok. Then my suggestion would still stand: don’t attend the wedding. Take the higher moral ground and make a stand that everything she is doing is WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Further, the OP can “help” with the costs of the wedding by not going - that’s one less dinner plate for the OP, and however many dinner plate’s for the OP’s family - that the bride doesn’t have to pay for.

No one is saying be irresponsible. Money is money. And while going into debt isn’t necessarily a good thing (depending on what type of debt it is) to judge someone so harshly seems… self righteous.

And while the rest of us recognize that there is no need for a big soiree,if that’s what the bride wants, let her have it. It is her wedding day. She’s paying for it, not anyone else. I don’t care how much money anyone has. A huge expensive wedding is UNNECESSARY for anyone. (I am, infact, opposed to huge lavish weddings, but! That’s just me. If someone else wants to, so be it.)

While this thread has turned into the financial aspect of it, it wasn’t until at least page 2 of this thread (If memory serves) that the OP came back on here to mention about the finances, as if it’s a second thought. To me, it seems that the OP was more concerned about this bride’s “visible” sin than anything else. Oh! The SCANDAL!

The OP could use this as an opportunity to show what people do when they have made mistakes: they repent and do what they can to make it right.

I’ve recently been to several weddings. And some of the things I’ve heard about the bride and groom … well, I wonder if those people would have been invited had the bride and groom knew what was REALLY thought of them.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Great googly moogly!

What has this post turned into?

We’re Catholics, people! We have confession! Absolution! And I don’t know about you, but the nuns always taught me to spend more time worrying about my own soul and less time worrying about my neighbor’s business!

I’m not going to begrudge someone else their day of joy. But if we follow this thread to the logical conclusion some of these posters are implying, well…

1. We need to have a hymen test for brides. Because some of them may be parading down the aisle in white dresses pretending to be virgins and they’re not. No big wedding for you, you slut! (Big wedding is a relative term… and some brides are savvy shoppers and it might look expensive but it isn’t as bad as you think… just sayin’…)
2. What do we do about bad boy grooms? No such test for them. If a good girl marries a bad boy does she get a big wedding? Or does he lose that privelege for her? Do we take it on his word that he waited for marriage? Do only bad girls forego the big wedding party?
3. Remember the good ol’ days when grandma or Aunt Bess had a 9 lb boy “two months early?” Remember how fun it was to count back nine months to the wedding day? Hahaha. Apparently those people passed low standards on to their children. Now everyone does it. Tsk. No one should be allowed to comment on a wedding unless they were virgins at their own wedding. Or if some did wait and yet used artificial contraception at all during your marriage, are you really any better? Why are you judging anyone else if you did?
4. Do we all get to ask all our friends and family if they are fornicating before we make the decision to road trip it to the wedding? Used to be that kind of thing was none of anyone’s business.
5. While fornicating is a serious sin, and a grave offense against God, has anyone else here ever read that it is not the MOST serious of sins? Motive has a lot to do with the degree of sinfulness, people. Two people acting out of genuine but misplaced love and falling into sin is a couple degrees different from someone murdering out of cold-blooded malice or stealing from widows and orphans.
6. Since drunkeness is a serious sin, do we ban Uncle Al from the wedding, since only non-sinners get to partake in festivities? Do we ban liquor altogether from the reception? (Jesus wouldn’t pass muster on this board then, because He apparently approved of alcohol at weddings…)
7. Do we alter wedding dress colors for brides who did everything but? Like, do we have a sliding scale from snow white to ecru to pearl gray to navy blue? Or maybe white with gray trim? This could revolutionize the wedding dress industry!
8. Do we ask the engaged couple if they plan to use artificial contraception? That should be reason enough to boycott weddings. It is sinful, you know. What about tax cheats or people who steal pencils from work? Do they get to have a big wedding if it’s being paid for by money they shouldn’t rightfully have?

I’m still not clear on why the level of condemnation here. I love the fatted calf/prodigal son theme one of the other wise posters brought in. The returning sinner deserves a party and a celebration.

And if it makes you all feel good, when you get finished with your purity tests and examination of sheets (should we demand that tradition return?) you might want to know that some couples only have true repentence on their wedding night when it dawns on them AFTER they are married and have paid the caterer what more they could have had on that night had they waited.

Judgementalism isn’t the only sin. But I wonder how many people here would quietly have to walk away if Christ came on this post and started writing in the sand. And nowhere in the bible did I read Him say to the woman caught in adultery “Go and sin no more. But don’t you dare try to have a big wedding feast when you get your act together!”

The process of conversion is a long one for some people. Ask yourselves if a pharisaical attitude brings others to a love of the Catholic Church and the grace of the sacraments, or if you might drive some people away who would now see the Church as full of hypocrites who as a group vote overwhelmingly for pro-abortion politicians but individually would sneer at a woman who had the baby before the wedding.

Not everyone reading this post is a devout Catholic. Some of you are making the mercy of Christ look like something left to YOUR discretion.

Any of you parents out there? Will you have a doctor’s exam before you pay for a wedding for your own children? Does the same standard hold true for sons? If you had a child who slipped, but they came back to the church and wanted a church wedding with their friends and family present rather than a JP, wouldn’t you want to throw a party? Or should we have a two-tier wedding system…the church for virgins and the rectory office and two witnesses for non-virgins?

Gaah!

No one is saying sin isn’t bad. But I’m just saying people need to worry more about their own souls and less about a stranger’s choices. And keep asking yourself, if that was your daughter/son, how would you want the world to treat them?

None of us knows what people do in their dating lives. But this couple had the baby. They may be far more virtuous now than a contracepting couple/couple who aborted a baby… but appearances do deceive.

How someone lived their life in the past cannot be changed. We need to encourage them to make different choices in the future. A loving attitude goes further in that respect than condemnation and scorn.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

And by the way, define “big wedding.” Seems some people here would deny such a couple any wedding at all.

We live in a day and age where all moral standards have been watered down. This behavior doesn’t happen in a societal vacuum. The generations that came before have much to answer for, and the peers of this couple should show more sympathy and understanding.

And those with young children… you are not guaranteed which way your own children will go despite your best efforts to control their choices, free will and moral codes. The less you say now, the fewer words you may have to eat some day. I repeat my original advice. It’s a teachable moment for children… about marriage, waiting, regrets, grace, sacraments, life choices… you can warn them how you will respond to such a situation in your life. But life throws you curves. I’d hope you’d respond to your own children with nothing but genuine love.

 

[sanctareparata]

*Karoline–I love love love your sig line.

I also echo your post. *

Me too. St Camillus is my beloved patron and I never knew he said that! (Totally off topic, I know.)

 

[aicirt]

Big wedding:
Invitations and postage, gown, rings, tux rental, flowers for bride and attendants,flowers for mothers, flowers for church, boutonniere for groom and groomsmen., aisle runner, organist and soloist, limos, professional photographer, donation to church/priest, programs,cocktail hour, orchestra/dj, dinner ($100 per head at least not including wine at dinner),champagne toast, bar, flowers for tables, gifts for attendants, cake, dessert.

Rehersal dinner night before wedding…responsibility of groom’s parents.

Brunch…(optional) for out of town guests at either parent’s house

 

[Jesus_123]

My oldest daughter’s confirmation sponsor, call her “Jane”, will be marrying “John” in September, and has invited our family to the wedding. Jane and John consider themselves to be serious Catholics, and Jane talked at length with my daughter about the importance of purity, etc. etc.

Turns out that Jane will be having a baby at the end of this month.

John is a minimally-employed graduate student. Jane is unemployed and living on food stamps. In spite of their financial situation and the baby on the way, they’ve managed to come up with the money for a big white wedding. Jane is estranged from her family, so she and John are paying for the wedding themselves.

Since they had intended to marry before they found out that Jane was pregnant, I believe that they should have married before the baby was born. Absent that, I think that it would be far more prudent to have a small, inexpensive wedding with a cake-and-punch reception, so that they’d conserve their resources for their child.

Shortly after she told me she was pregnant, I talked all this over with Jane in a gentle but forthright way. She’s not a terribly mature person, and her response was basically “I want what I want and I’m gonna have what I want”.

I’m certainly glad that she’s chosen to give her child life, and that she’s marrying John rather than denying her daughter a father. However, regarding my own four kids, who range in age from 7 through 15, I’m not comfortable with the message that this sends. “Do the wrong thing (fornication), but have a big fancy wedding anyway.” Is she not giving scandal?

So my options are to

1. not attend at all, which will probably end the friendship
2. attend with just my oldest daughter, with whom I’ve already discussed the situation at length
3. attend the wedding, but decline the reception
4. plan a family vacation that weekend and skirt the issue entirely. (OK, so that’s not really an option, but it sure sounds tempting!)

I’d just like to hear some opinions.

**+ Peace . . .

In the Shadow of the Cross . . . **

I just want to apologize to you as a Catholic convert jbettin . . . for all the virulent bitterness, argumentiveness and sarcasm that your perfectly decent, honest and sensible post question has received here at CAF . . . you have really been harshly victimized by personal attacks . . . and that is NOT acceptable behaviour . . . in a supposed-to-be-benevolent Catholic Christian community of souls . . . Because of the tone of many of the posted answers to your thread . . . your sensible and honest question has met with a predominantly toxic and hostile reception . . . rather than a benevolent one . . .* I am so sorry . . . *though we may have varied opinions . . . the way many have expressed theirs today . . . *whew! . . . this has been one rough ride . . . *

I’m the facilitator of the Benedictine Spirituality Forum here on CAF . . . at the Moderator’s request . . . and since you and your family are very much connected to “Jane” . . . I can . . . without a shadow of a doubt . . . say that your concern is absolutely legitimate . . . on all levels . . . and that it is absolutely “your business” since you have been invited to this wedding . . . and The Holy Rule of St. Benedict . . . which we have been studying . . . day by day . . . in our Forum . . . absolutely supports your legitimate concern about the problems which you posted . . . as does . . . **The Catechism of the Catholic Church **. . . which breaks down sin into the degrees of venial and mortal sin . . . Our Forum group is kind hearted and generous of spirit . . . and healthy . . . should you need a calm loving atmosphere to recover in from this strange foray into never-never land . . . and may the Blessed and Holy St. Benedict help you find wisdom and God’s Holy Pathway in this difficult situation . . .

May God bless you and your family with kind, generous, disciplined hearts as you seek His wisdom concerning your individual problem . . . and may any injuries that may have occured because of all the in-fighting . . . which yourself . . . *or anyone else who posted on the thread *. . . may have encountered on this thread . . . be healed of spirit and in soul . . . and may God’s Holy Peace come upon one and all . . . if you will receive it . . .

The Hail Mary

Hail Mary . . . full of grace . . . the Lord is with thee . . . blessed art thou among women . . . and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb . . . Jesus . . . Holy Mary . . . Mother of God . . . pray for us sinners . . . now and at the hour of our death . . . Amen . . .

. . . all for Jesus​

+
. . . thank You Dear Jesus+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy Mother+
. . . thank you Blessed Holy St. Benedict+
​

 

[jmcrae]

How someone lived their life in the past cannot be changed. We need to encourage them to make different choices in the future. A loving attitude goes further in that respect than condemnation and scorn.

I have seen the “don’t judge” thing in real life, and 10 years later, all those little girls who were watching at the sidelines now have babies of their own - in some cases more than one - out of wedlock, of course, because “well, you aren’t allowed to judge that sort of thing.” It’s just a whole lot easier to give in to sexual pressure when there aren’t going to be any serious consequences for it - if you know that your mother isn’t going to yell at you for getting pregnant, and there is your boyfriend yelling at you to “put out” and convincing you that “everyone else is doing it.”

When I was a teenager, what I found was that where the fear of God failed, the fear of Mom sufficed, with regard to my self-control in all areas of my life; not just sexual. But if there is neither fear of Mom, nor fear of God, then there is no reason not to sin, unless you are actually a born Saint, and avoid sin merely because “it’s just wrong, and that’s that,” without any consideration of either eternal or temporal consequences.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Now, Jesus 123, you were the one who suggested she interrogate this woman as to the state of her soul and her spiritual intentions of marriage and if her answers were found wanting, to let her know she wasn’t good enough for the children to go to her wedding, which if entered into in a state of sin, God surely will not bless.

Ummm… objectively you are correct. But there is no polite way of having such a conversation and then condemning someone and announcing you are boycotting the wedding as a result. Your own post was one that made me go

I’m not trying to start a fight. What to some people are part of a standard wedding package deal (often the carpet runner comes with the altar flowers from the florist, and the flowers are left as a gift to the church), others consider part of a big scandalous ceremony.

When we start splitting hairs and determining who is owed what in a sacramental ceremony, where do we stop?

Funerals! Hey! There’s a great topic for discussion! Let’s expand this!

If someone doesn’t live a sinless life, just how big a funeral does he/she get? Do they deserve a brass coffin if they ever had an affair, or would a pine box be more dignified and in keeping with their sinful status?

Should the number of mourners be limited for a public sinner? Should they be buried at the center of a cemetery or cremated and shoved in a little alcove somewhere?

Do they get music at their funeral if they were bad people? Should they be allowed a Mass, or will just a graveside service do? How big a gravestone do big sinners get? How do we determine if they died in the state of grace so as to judge all of this?

I mean… let’s do a reductio ad absurdum to this whole discussion.

If the OP knew and liked this person enough to judge her competent to be a confirmation sponsor, then there should be enough relationship there for her to forgive, attend the wedding and rejoice that this woman is setting an example to her daughter that once a woman is fallen, doesn’t mean she has to stay on the ground and wait for the stones to fall on her head.

No letter A, no sin baby, no Rev. Dimmsdale. Just a couple who is beginning what is hopefully a road to mutual sanctification that got off to a rocky start. God writes straight with crooked lines. And we aren’t God.

Some of those things on the list for a “big” wedding… are standard even for small weddings. You think the bride should have no music at her ceremony? No offering for the priest? (Hey, the church fee is often NOT negotiable!) No pictures? If you sin the mother of the bride doesn’t get a corsage?

What will that produce? The non-virgin special? “Gee, Mabel, no music, no flowers, no photography… she must be a real sinner!”

:sad_yes:

 

[Liberanosamalo]

There is a difference between being afraid your mother will yell at you and feeling that your mother will disown you if something happens.

I think those women who had babies 10 years later were symptomatic of something far more serious. We don’t hear nearly enough about sin and sexual morality in the pews at church. I’m a lone voice in my children’s lives telling them what is right and wrong it seems. All they get in many instances is “God loves you” but nothing about what we owe God in return.

This isn’t a problem created by mothers who don’t refuse to have a wedding reception for daughters. The problem starts when their children are being raised as young people in a society and church that seems afraid to set standards.

How many priests do you hear give sermons on the state of grace/sin/routine confession?
How many times have you heard a priest say that premarital sex in all its forms is a grave sin? How many sermons against drunkeness or adultery or financial dishonesty do you hear?

Sadly, how many sermons speaking against artificial contraception have you heard in your parish church in the last year? Can you count them on more than one hand? How many times have you heard your priest say abortion is wrong and assisting in one, paying for one, or voting for those who aid and abet it is wrong?

THAT is the society our young people live in. It’s not that they have no standards. Often, sadly, they don’t even know there ARE standards.

Then those priests who never told them fornication is a sin really aren’t in a position to deny a big church wedding to people who sinned and had a baby.

This problem is bigger than a few little girls who watched the “bad girls” get the weddings of their dreams and did the same thing 10 years later.

And again, where’s the condemnation of the “bad boys” here?

 

[aicirt]

Now, Jesus 123, you were the one who suggested she interrogate this woman as to the state of her soul and her spiritual intentions of marriage and if her answers were found wanting, to let her know she wasn’t good enough for the children to go to her wedding, which if entered into in a state of sin, God surely will not bless.

Ummm… objectively you are correct. But there is no polite way of having such a conversation and then condemning someone and announcing you are boycotting the wedding as a result. Your own post was one that made me go

I’m not trying to start a fight. What to some people are part of a standard wedding package deal (often the carpet runner comes with the altar flowers from the florist, and the flowers are left as a gift to the church), others consider part of a big scandalous ceremony.

When we start splitting hairs and determining who is owed what in a sacramental ceremony, where do we stop?

Funerals! Hey! There’s a great topic for discussion! Let’s expand this!

If someone doesn’t live a sinless life, just how big a funeral does he/she get? Do they deserve a brass coffin if they ever had an affair, or would a pine box be more dignified and in keeping with their sinful status?

Should the number of mourners be limited for a public sinner? Should they be buried at the center of a cemetery or cremated and shoved in a little alcove somewhere?

Do they get music at their funeral if they were bad people? Should they be allowed a Mass, or will just a graveside service do? How big a gravestone do big sinners get? How do we determine if they died in the state of grace so as to judge all of this?

I mean… let’s do a reductio ad absurdum to this whole discussion.

If the OP knew and liked this person enough to judge her competent to be a confirmation sponsor, then there should be enough relationship there for her to forgive, attend the wedding and rejoice that this woman is setting an example to her daughter that once a woman is fallen, doesn’t mean she has to stay on the ground and wait for the stones to fall on her head.

No letter A, no sin baby, no Rev. Dimmsdale. Just a couple who is beginning what is hopefully a road to mutual sanctification that got off to a rocky start. God writes straight with crooked lines. And we aren’t God.

Some of those things on the list for a “big” wedding… are standard even for small weddings. You think the bride should have no music at her ceremony? No offering for the priest? (Hey, the church fee is often NOT negotiable!) No pictures? If you sin the mother of the bride doesn’t get a corsage?

What will that produce? The non-virgin special? “Gee, Mabel, no music, no flowers, no photography… she must be a real sinner!”

:sad_yes:

I don’t know why you are upset. You asked for a definition of a big wedding and I gave one. If this is Jane’s idea of a big wedding, she will have a debt equal to the scale of the day.

If you wonder where the laity should stand about splitting hairs on the ceremony, what was your opinion of their priest’s suggestion they marry ASAP?

What about the other poster who stated his priest would not perform the ceremony on the main altar for those who had lived together. They had to marry at a side altar.

What about the priest who wouldn’t marry them if they continued to live together?

Think they’re trying to send a message?

 

[aicirt]

There is a difference between being afraid your mother will yell at you and feeling that your mother will disown you if something happens.

I think those women who had babies 10 years later were symptomatic of something far more serious. We don’t hear nearly enough about sin and sexual morality in the pews at church. I’m a lone voice in my children’s lives telling them what is right and wrong it seems. All they get in many instances is “God loves you” but nothing about what we owe God in return.

This isn’t a problem created by mothers who don’t refuse to have a wedding reception for daughters. The problem starts when their children are being raised as young people in a society and church that seems afraid to set standards.

How many priests do you hear give sermons on the state of grace/sin/routine confession?
How many times have you heard a priest say that premarital sex in all its forms is a grave sin? How many sermons against drunkeness or adultery or financial dishonesty do you hear?

Sadly, how many sermons speaking against artificial contraception have you heard in your parish church in the last year? Can you count them on more than one hand? How many times have you heard your priest say abortion is wrong and assisting in one, paying for one, or voting for those who aid and abet it is wrong?

THAT is the society our young people live in. It’s not that they have no standards. Often, sadly, they don’t even know there ARE standards.

Then those priests who never told them fornication is a sin really aren’t in a position to deny a big church wedding to people who sinned and had a baby.

This problem is bigger than a few little girls who watched the “bad girls” get the weddings of their dreams and did the same thing 10 years later.

And again, where’s the condemnation of the “bad boys” here?

Totally agree with the sermon issue.

As the mother of sons, I and my friends who are also the mothers of sons were stunned at the actions of some girls beginning in junior high. Notes which were explicit on how, what, when, and where. A real education.

 

[Jesus_123]

**+ In the raising of children . . . **as a parent . . . I absolutely retain the right and and accept the God-given responsibility of training my children to discern right from wrong regarding their actions day by day . . . as does our Holy Catholic Church . . . and . . . by God’s Grace . . . our Holy Church and our Gracious Lord have made the Holy Sacrament of Penance and forgiveness and absolution of sin available . . . and confessionals galore available . . . ***and the examinination of conscience available in each daily Holy Prayer of the Mass ***. . . and has ordained that confession must be made to a priest at least once a year . . . so that this discernment of our actions . . . whether they are right or wrong . . . can bear holy Catholic fruit . . . and as a Christian parent and teacher of children and some small and some rather large classes of adult women . . . *sometimes numbering in the hundreds in a single class *. . . keeping silent on this subject would be reprehensible . . .

Liberanosamalo . . . neither the original poster (OP) nor myself have ever made even the slightest suggestion that the individuals’ souls involved in the planned wedding . . . **be condemned **. . . God only is their judge . . . or that “Jane” be “told that she isn’t good enough” . . . again . . . God only is her judge . . . but this couple’s . . . past actions and activities . . . for responsible parents of children . . . who are close to the couple . . . promote the necessity of careful examination and discernment of their present actions and activities . . . in the Light of God’s Holy :bible1: Word and . . . the Catechical Teachings of the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . to be sure that their children are not receiving a message of . . . *“sin whenever and however you like” . . . “all is well” . . . “you don’t have to confess anything if you don’t want to” . . . “God will bless you no matter what” . . . *which message is a . . . dreadful lie . . . and there has been no mention of announcing to the bride that they are “boycotting” their wedding . . . ****what a prejudicial choice of words! ****. . . *you are “spinning” the words in our posts to suit your own agenda . . . *

There is nothing trivial in the Eyes of God . . . each of our actions as God’s children should be examined in good conscience as to whether they are healthy or unhealthy . . . right or wrong . . . according to God’s laws and precepts . . . and if a child of God is not taught this . . . then their soul has been very poorly catechized . . . and we should be more concerned about bringing God and his Ways of Light and Love into their lives for their spiritual health and welfare . . . whether friends . . . or family members . . . than passively and permissively accepting all and everything as* . . . OK . . . it’s their business . . . *and going along in tandem with them . . . without discerning whether certain activities are right or wrong re their value system juxtaposed to our God’s Holy Catholic Christian Church’s value system . . . in relation to their ethics, morality and value systems . . .

The nature of God . . . who is truly Love Incarnate in Jesus Christ . . . is revealed in the Sacred Scripture below as a Disciplined Love Incarnate . . . and it is our responsibility as God’s children to understand that. . . God is not just “warm and fuzzy” Love as we might want . . . but is our Saviour from sin . . . and supposed to be LORD of our lives . . . and is to be obeyed as such . . . and is also the final Holy Judge of our souls true inclinations . . . Whom we will not be able to deceive no matter how much one might want to . . .

:bible1: “But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand. So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.” - Ezekial 33:6-7

:bible1: “Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.” - Psalm 127:1

:bible1: "Be not deceived; God is NOT mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. - Galatians 6:7​

True repentance must contain a firm commitment to sin no more and a renunciation of sin . . . if it does not . . . it is not true repentance . . . and there are many Catholic priests who will not marry a couple who have not repented and gotten their lives straightened out . . . one of the weddings our Lord did not allow me to go to . . . the couple had to bring in a priest from another state to marry them . . . because they continued to cohabitate through the night before their wedding . . . and he accepted this . . . NOT marvelous . . . and they weren’t married in a church . . . but in a hired recreational facility . . .

. . . all for Jesus+
. . . Lord have mercy+
​

 

[mommamia]

Big wedding:
Invitations and postage, gown, rings, tux rental, flowers for bride and attendants,flowers for mothers, flowers for church, boutonniere for groom and groomsmen., aisle runner, organist and soloist, limos, professional photographer, donation to church/priest, programs,cocktail hour, orchestra/dj, dinner ($100 per head at least not including wine at dinner),champagne toast, bar, flowers for tables, gifts for attendants, cake, dessert.

Rehersal dinner night before wedding…responsibility of groom’s parents.

Brunch…(optional) for out of town guests at either parent’s house

Hmm, we had most of that, but it didn’t cost near what you are thinking. Dh’s parents did pay for the rehearsal dinner, they were the ones who said it was “tradition” and they wanted to. Actually they were kind of upset because we decided on a local pizza parlor instead of a big catered event. Of course they had only son’s and planned on never having to pay for a wedding (which they didn’t).

And we don’t know which way the bride is leaning. How much is she really spending? I don’t know. I’ve been to $50,000 weddings, and $5000 weddings, all “big do’s”. So since we don’t know, we shouldn’t assume anything but the best. That’s the only Christian option.

Again, you can be upset at the cost, but really how is that anyone’s business? And if the parents (or whoever, you’d be surprised at how many truly giving folks there are out there) want to give this to them, who are we to judge? I’ve been helped more than I can ever pay back, sometimes by complete strangers. All people who decided to follow God’s word, and be truly loving. And I have learned to try to give that back.

Protest all you want, but it seems that the big problem here is the idea of a “big do”, and the financial burden. Really it saddens me to see folks judge someone as worthy or not based on their income. For all we know, she had to wait until after the baby so she could save for the event.

If she had gotten pregnant out of wedlock, but her fiancé had a good paying job, then she would deserve a big wedding?? But since he is still in school, maybe with the possibility of a high paying job in the future (we don’t know) she needs to just do it quick and get it over with so you don’t have to talk to your kids about it. Well, that is the problem, we need to be talking to our kids about this. You seriously think “Jane” is the only one they see?? It bombards them day in and day out. If we don’t talk to them, who will? And while talking to them about how wrong it is, we also need to talk to them about God’s Forgiveness. They need to know, that no matter what, we as parents and God as the all powerful creator are always here for them. No matter what you have done, God always loves you and wants you to come back to him.

Now, Jesus 123, you were the one who suggested she interrogate this woman as to the state of her soul and her spiritual intentions of marriage and if her answers were found wanting, to let her know she wasn’t good enough for the children to go to her wedding, which if entered into in a state of sin, God surely will not bless.
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What will that produce? The non-virgin special? “Gee, Mabel, no music, no flowers, no photography… she must be a real sinner!”

:sad_yes:

Liberanosamalo, you make me want to pray the rosary that I can be more loving. That means a lot to me at a time like this, when I find myself questioning the Church way too often. I need to find more folks like you, and stay away from those who make me ashamed.

I think I need to clarify here. I do not want them to “grieve because of their HUGE mistake” nor am I trying to make Jane a “target for my indignation”. Nor do I think the marriage isn’t worth celebrating.

As I said originally, "I’m certainly glad that she’s chosen to give her child life, and that she’s marrying John rather than denying her daughter a father." I’m glad they’re marrying in the church. I’m assuming that they’ve made the situation right with God. I will pray for many blessings on their marriage and on their child.

To further clarify: had they chosen to marry before their baby was born, it wouldn’t have been a shotgun wedding, because they were already engaged. As I understand it, our parish priest encouraged them to move the wedding date up. They chose to ignore him.

My issue isn’t the “what”, but the “how”.

If they were having a small, simple wedding and reception – even after the birth of the baby – there would be no dilemma; we’d definitely go. But to have an elaborate “do” when they’re flat broke and have a new baby seems to me to be both inappropriate and imprudent. My interest isn’t in punishment, but in maintaining standards.

Maintaining standards? Are you serious?A sacrament isn’t about maintaining standards. I guess since we didn’t get our girls baptized as babies, they should of had a quiet baptism? The probably didn’t deserve the party we threw them afterwards, after all, that isn’t maintaining standards. Because if you are a “Good Catholic” you have your babies baptized as infants. Or maybe just their father and I should have been banished? Since we were the ones who made the mistake in the first place, we probably shouldn’t have celebrated with the rest of the “good” people. :tsktsk: Maybe we should take to wearing sack-clothe and ashes and only eat bread and water so people don’t get the idea that we are happy because we know we are forgiven and our God loves us. :heaven:

 

[sanctamaria17]

Well, I guess I am a horrible person. After all, I’m going to school…ON GOVERNMENT MONEY!! AND, I’m paying my rent and food by myself…the extra I have is going to a summer program in a Spanish-speaking country…Geesh, maybe I’m stupid for traveling, even though it’s necessary for the field I’m in and what I’m studying…maybe it makes me “sinful” and “greedy”, maybe I’m just wasting government resources…Maybe my parents shouldn’t bother coming to my graduation five hours away. Maybe I shouldn’t be allowed to walk the stage in my cap and gown, because I dared to sacrifice and paid with money I don’t have (because I am on government loans) for an education in something I really loved and opportunities I would not have had if I stayed home…because I also dared to sacrifice to travel, another thing I love deeply, and to develop the gifts God has given me…Maybe the rest of my family shouldn’t come either. I could just get my degree in the dean’s office and have cookies…After all, this is about finances, right?

To all non-Catholics who may be viewing this thread, I’m sincerely sorry… I want you to know, that these views are NOT representative of Church teaching or Scripture…

Whatever happened to “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”? Seriously…

 

[Liberanosamalo]

the Catechical Teachings of the Apostolic Holy Roman Catholic Church . . . to be sure that their children are not receiving a message of . . . “sin whenever and however you like” . . . “all is well” . . . “you don’t have to confess anything if you don’t want to” . .

What the parents tell their children is the parent’s choice and responsibility. I NEVER said sin whenever and however you like and no one has to confess anything.

One can teach one’s children the truth about sin, the need for confession and the everlasting results of sin on a child’s soul That is a parent’s duty.

But this post has garnered a lot of opinions on how to treat a couple that no one here knows what their spiritual status is, nor is it anyone’s business. And to determine it would require questions so spiritually intrusive that I would never ask them…

I have no opinion on the priest’s motives for allowing/not allowing or suggesting a wedding be moved up. That is based on information only he may know about the couple and his discretion. I know priests who mandate couples move out before marriage. GOOD! I know priests who have refused to marry couples who are not ready or are heading for apparent disaster. Good! I know priests who are very strict about weddings.

It’s the priest’s prerogative. And usually in those parishes, the rules are listed in the parish bulletin or website or the priest is honest with them at the first meeting. No surprises. And often those priests are the ones who are clear in their sermons about right and wrong.

I also know the first question many of them ask an engaged couple is “Is the bride pregnant.”

But if the priest has decided to do the wedding on the main altar, it is not my job to second guess him. Is it anyone’s job here?

I’m responsible for what I teach my own children. In a world that is doing everything it can to undermine the truth. I know many young couples (50 percent) statistically have grown up in a family that was rendered asunder by divorce. Many have confused attitudes about marriage/fidelity and premarital sex. Many are confused and scandalized and led by their own parent/s to believe that what they are doing is not wrong. Either by word or example.

How culpable is someone who grew up watching his/her parent date many people and behave in a scandalous way? When they follow that example, if they eventually repent, maybe it’s the beginning of a path to God. And only God knows their souls.

No one is saying those in the position to teach must keep silent. It is the duty to teach the truth. Especially to your children. The older I get the more I realize you can teach your children till you’re blue in the face and many times they are determined to go find out the hard way that you knew what you were talking about. And when they come to the truth on their own, how do YOU want the world to treat them? Like second-class citizens? If you have multiple children, do you have different tiers of weddings as your children marry? The good ones get the whole works, the bad ones have the “Shameful Couple Ceremony?”

I just think we all need to remember that at wedding time, we may be dealing with families of the bride/groom who may not be Catholic or may be fallen away. And our presence, love and behavior and encouragement of the couple may lead others to a reappraisal of their opinions of the Catholic Church.

Preach Christ always. Sometimes use words.

 

[Karoline]

Well, I guess I am a horrible person. After all, I’m going to school…ON GOVERNMENT MONEY!! AND, I’m paying my rent and food by myself…the extra I have is going to a summer program in a Spanish-speaking country…Geesh, maybe I’m stupid for traveling, even though it’s necessary for the field I’m in and what I’m studying…maybe it makes me “sinful” and “greedy”, maybe I’m just wasting government resources…Maybe my parents shouldn’t bother coming to my graduation five hours away. Maybe I shouldn’t be allowed to walk the stage in my cap and gown, because I dared to sacrifice and paid with money I don’t have (because I am on government loans) for an education in something I really loved and opportunities I would not have had if I stayed home…because I also dared to sacrifice to travel, another thing I love deeply, and to develop the gifts God has given me…Maybe the rest of my family shouldn’t come either. I could just get my degree in the dean’s office and have cookies…After all, this is about finances, right?

To all non-Catholics who may be viewing this thread, I’m sincerely sorry… I want you to know, that these views are NOT representative of Church teaching or Scripture…

Whatever happened to “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”? Seriously…

[emphasis mine]

I second this, heaven forbid I go to Univesity and train to be a Nurse, I certainly cannot pay for it myself and the Government is not only paying my course fees, they are providing me with a bursary to live on as I have no way to pay for food and rent. Forget the fact that in the long run I am doing the right thing and forget the benefit that it is going to have not only for me, but for my patients, I should just stay at home, living with my mother and working in a call centre for the rest of my life.

In response to the bolded, all I can say, is that reading this, as a non-Catholic, currently discerning whether or not the Catholic Church is the way that God is calling me, it has seriously put massive doubts in my mind, if people can be this judgemental, I’d hate to think what they’d make of me on my wedding day. (Not that I have children, heaven forbid, as they are apparently evil.)

 

[aicirt]

No, I will stick to my original belief that if you are engaged and find yourself pregnant you should marry ASAP. For the last time, I never said they shouldn’t have a wedding.

John and Jane got pregnant, apparently confessed, priest said ASAP but they will have baby in July with wedding in Sept. I think we can assume that they are living apart which would probably be eight months from the time they told the priest through the pregnancy to the wedding night. I don’t understand wanting to go through a pregnancy without the man who wants to be your husband at your side night and day. He is not suppose to live with you and you are not to have sex until the wedding. And maybe it would be nice to find out what John wanted too.

 

[GodIsGracious]

And maybe it would be nice to find out what John wanted too.

How do you know they didn’t? Just because of one statement the bride made? And wow, you’re making a whole judgement about her based on that one statement.

I have made just such a statement. Does that make me willful? No. It just meant that I do NOT want tomatoes! eesh. (That was the context under which I had made just such a statement, in regards to tomatoes.)

Get over yourself. Seriously.

 

[GodIsGracious]

[emphasis mine]

I second this, heaven forbid I go to Univesity and train to be a Nurse, I certainly cannot pay for it myself and the Government is not only paying my course fees, they are providing me with a bursary to live on as I have no way to pay for food and rent. Forget the fact that in the long run I am doing the right thing and forget the benefit that it is going to have not only for me, but for my patients, I should just stay at home, living with my mother and working in a call centre for the rest of my life.

In response to the bolded, all I can say, is that reading this, as a non-Catholic, currently discerning whether or not the Catholic Church is the way that God is calling me, it has seriously put massive doubts in my mind, if people can be this judgemental, I’d hate to think what they’d make of me on my wedding day. (Not that I have children, heaven forbid, as they are apparently evil.)

Don’t let this deter you. Seriously. I’m so grateful to be Catholic. I absolutely love it. Not everyone feels this way. Not everyone thinks people should slink away in anabashed shame due to having had a child out of wedlock. It’s interesting to note all the “children are a blessing!” comments from the childed, yet… should said blessing happen to arrive under scandolous circumstances, oh no! We must hide it away! This “blessing” MUST NOT BE SEEN! Weddings must be perfect!

BTW, do you have an extra clothe sack with ashes? I need one myself. Perhaps you, me, and mommamia can start a fashion trend! We’ll be seen at dinner with foccacia bread (hope that’s not too fancy!) and Perier Bottled water. How’s that? (I too borrowed money from the government in order to pay for my education. I’m paying it back too! So all those who felt I was “living above my means” just to get an education - well, there’s your tax money back, WITH INTEREST!)