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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Interesting if true. Are you a Biblical historian?
Moral issue of going to a VERY wiccan house and a VERY wiccan "family" friend
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AHapka
Guest
Yes, he is. Each Cardinal Elector writes down on a piece of paper whom they think should be elected Pope. Then they count the ballots and determine who won by who has the most votes. It’s been done this way for a very, very long time.
Another example from Acts 2:26 “Then they gave lots to them, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was counted with the eleven apostles.”
Just curious, and I’m not trying to say this in a condescending way, but how did you think the Pope was chosen???
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
That’s voting, not ‘casting lots.’
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AHapka
Guest
What is voting if not casting lots? That seems to be what they called it then based on the passage from Acts 1:26 I quoted.
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Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
If you don’t want to admit that the apostles used a form of divination (like that discussed in Proverbs 16 mentioned earlier–“The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is the Lord’s alone”) then one could make an argument for the Greek practice of sortition (which worked like a lottery). But to argue that they voted is a bit of an uphill battle–the text doesn’t support the assertion.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
It’s doubtful that the apostles voted or considered the choice of Judas’ replacement something up for a group vote. They weren’t apostles because a committee voted them apostles. And the previous verses of the chapter make clear what’s going on–the group selected two, they prayed over them and asked God to select which of the two would be the new apostle. They drew or cast lots to determine whom God chose. They didn’t put it to a vote.
If you don’t want to admit that the apostles used a form of divination (like that discussed in Proverbs 16 mentioned earlier–“The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is the Lord’s alone”) then one could make an argument for the Greek practice of sortition (which worked like a lottery). But to argue that they voted is a bit of an uphill battle–the text doesn’t support the assertion.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
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AHapka
Guest
I’m thinking part of the problem is that I presumed casting lots and voting was the same thing…that casting lots was just an “ancient” way of saying voting…oops.
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Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
That is called voting…many democracies choose presidents and legislatures this way. Casting lots is not mediums, sorcery, witchcraft. It is picking straws and whoever gets the smallest or longest straw wins. And they prayed to God to choose. God doesn’t need to use witchcraft or sorcery.
J
Jesus_N_Cherie
Guest
Okay, let me get this straight. You are saying that the Roman Catholic Church says that astrology (which is fortune telling) is alright? You are saying that the people who came to adore Jesus as a baby…who were NOT Hebrews and had no recourse to the Law…are what you are using as an example of what is alright for us to follow, and that the Church stands behind this?
I am not accusing, just asking for clarification.
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AHapka
Guest
Again, my mistake. I wasn’t clear on what that was. I thought casting lots and voting were two different words for the same thing.
I never suggested that God needed to use witchcraft or sorcery.
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Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
1–Astrology is more than fortune telling and is principally a development of a particular worldview (only recently dismissed as irrelevant) which sees all natural phenomena as A) interconnected; and B) connected to or reflective of spiritual realities.
2–The potential great offence of astrology to the virtue of religion is twofold: A) insofar as it is used for fortune telling, it is an abdication of free will and therefore a denial of hope; B) insofar as it can lead to a confusion between Creator and creation, it can lead to idolatry.
3–If the pitfalls of point 2 can be avoided (and they are not unavoidable), there is nothing particularly worth moral condemnation of the basic ideas in point 1.
4–But because the pitfalls of point 2 are particularly grave, the church urges her children to avoid astrology.
5–Consequently, astrology gets a bum rap.
Finally, I do not suggest that we all become Zoroastrian priests. My suggestion, though, is that when throwing out a particularly dirty tub of bathwater (fortune-telling/idolatry) that one makes sure to first remove any baby one may find therein (such as a traditional sacred science a la point 1).
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
Hi. I’m saying something a little more subtle than all that:
1–Astrology is more than fortune telling and is principally a development of a particular worldview (only recently dismissed as irrelevant) which sees all natural phenomena as A) interconnected; and B) connected to or reflective of spiritual realities.
2–The potential great offence of astrology to the virtue of religion is twofold: A) insofar as it is used for fortune telling, it is an abdication of free will and therefore a denial of hope; B) insofar as it can lead to a confusion between Creator and creation, it can lead to idolatry.
3–If the pitfalls of point 2 can be avoided (and they are not unavoidable), there is nothing particularly worth moral condemnation of the basic ideas in point 1.
4–But because the pitfalls of point 2 are particularly grave, the church urges her children to avoid astrology.
5–Consequently, astrology gets a bum rap.
Finally, I do not suggest that we all become Zoroastrian priests. My suggestion, though, is that when throwing out a particularly dirty tub of bathwater (fortune-telling/idolatry) that one makes sure to first remove any baby one may find therein (such as a traditional sacred science a la point 1).
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
A
Ahimsa
Guest
Well, there’s “fortune-telling” and then there’s “fortune-telling”. One might use astrology as a way of simply providing excuses for why certain things happen in one’s life, as a way of abdicating one’s use of free-will. Such a use is rightly deplored by the catechism.Grace & Peace!
Hi. I’m saying something a little more subtle than all that:
1–Astrology is more than fortune telling and is principally a development of a particular worldview (only recently dismissed as irrelevant) which sees all natural phenomena as A) interconnected; and B) connected to or reflective of spiritual realities.
2–The potential great offence of astrology to the virtue of religion is twofold: A) insofar as it is used for fortune telling, it is an abdication of free will and therefore a denial of hope; B) insofar as it can lead to a confusion between Creator and creation, it can lead to idolatry.
3–If the pitfalls of point 2 can be avoided (and they are not unavoidable), there is nothing particularly worth moral condemnation of the basic ideas in point 1.
4–But because the pitfalls of point 2 are particularly grave, the church urges her children to avoid astrology.
5–Consequently, astrology gets a bum rap.
Finally, I do not suggest that we all become Zoroastrian priests. My suggestion, though, is that when throwing out a particularly dirty tub of bathwater (fortune-telling/idolatry) that one makes sure to first remove any baby one may find therein (such as a traditional sacred science a la point 1).
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
On the other hand, one might use astrology in the same way one uses a map – as an indication of what one might expect to encounter in the coming years, and then using that knowledge to alter one’s behavior so that one takes proper advantage of those encounters.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
I think astrology is still frowned on, along with palm-reading, Tarot and the like.
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medallionsnijme
Guest
Hello again all! you know, i dunno if its my profile or what, but i only get a message to my inbox about a new message once in a blue moon so i just figured the conversation died out. now that i know better, ill check in way more often!
anyways!
yes, she can choose to do as she pleases because God gave her free will just like the rest of us. whether or not that is right and truly good, that is the other matter. you can tell a tree by its fruit…cant say i see any good coming out of it.
as for the respect thing you mentioned, i quite like something mother angelica said about how shes not here on this earth to make friends…shes here to live the life the Lord desires her to live and if anyones got something to say about it, they can go fly cos shes not gonna be quiet and stop doing what shes doing just because she ruffles some feathers. (ok, so i kinda ad-libbed a bit there, but you get the idea of what i mean). as a Catholic, im here to live my faith to the fullest, and Jesus already mentioned that living His life is not going to be easy, that the world will despise us because it despised Him first. It’s part of the job description. I think that if youre not finding that bit of healthy, soulful contradiction in your life as a Christian, maybe youre not doing it right. (?) some people aren’t prepared to take that leap. frankly, i don’t care what the world thinks. if i ruffle some feathers and bend some people out of shape because i stand up for what i believe in and because i am not afraid to speak out against things that are morally wrong or harmful in any way, be it physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc., you better be darn tootin’ im not gonna be quiet any time soon cos i dont want to be responsible for the consequences of having NOT spoken up when judgement day comes. admonishing the sinner is an act of mercy, and omission is still a sin.
compared with doing my part in the work of salvation, ruffled feathers are the least of my worries, especially if some good comes of challenging those who are on a different side of the fence.
M
medallionsnijme
Guest
um, yeah…there was an angel that appeared to the shepherds…and not to mention there was a REALLY BIG STAR IN THE SKY…no offence, but kinda hard to miss something like that…and i think they were astronomers…they knew it was important. besides, there was a reason they had to go see the Christ Child, so God would have led them there anyways because it was His will. i dont think it was that they cast lots or divined anything.
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medallionsnijme
Guest
astrology, palm reading, divination, scrying, tea or coffee ground reading, ouijia boards, tarot, angel cards, goddess cards, (and other variations of divining cards), witchcraft, going to mediums/psychics, calling on spirits, believing rocks have powers (hahahahahaha thats rediculous), chakra stuff, yoga, i think pilates because of some of the things it evolved from, using sticks to find water (cant think of what thats called), using a pendulum (again, divination), runes, superstitions, lucky charms (no, not the cereal
) etc. the list goes on…they are all things you want to avoid because they are occult.
) etc. the list goes on…they are all things you want to avoid because they are occult.
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Sailor_Kenshin
Guest
Pilates??? 
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medallionsnijme
Guest
in regards to pilates, from the research ive done to get a straight answer as to if its dangerous like yoga, the gist that i’ve gotten is that because it has elements from the same origins as yoga (hinduism, etc) and other areas to be avoided (i.e. eastern influences) as Christians, its better to leave it be. (sorry!) i think, too, there was something about the philosophy behind it…i may be confusing it with yoga, but im pretty sure it was something about attaining a perfect body using the forms depicted by the “gods/goddesses” of the various cultures that Joseph Pilates got his ideas and inspiration from in order to create such “godlike” bodies…something to that effect anyway. like yoga, mimicing such things could open you up to a bit of danger. thats from what i understand so i stay away from it now, too, just to play it safe and not take any risks. i’d say do some research. (though its a frustrating search, you may find the right info, just keep looking! )
)
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Angels_Unaware
Guest
Here is a question I have. If a person is completely ignorant about something, why comment? I am ignorant about many things. If I don’t know something, I will say, “I don’t know”. I don’t try to argue about things of which I know nothing, in a spirit of complete arrogance. Modest ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, but arrogant ignorance is shameful.
Astronomy is a modern science. The science of astronomy is based on the observation of light from heavenly bodies, and the analysis of light to determine the composition, distance, and movement of heavenly bodies.
The roots of astronomy are based in the ancient art and science of astrology. Astronomy is the modern observation of the sky divested of supernatural significance or synchronicities.
The maji were not astronomers in the modern sense of the word. The were students of the sky, and that included both natural observation and the study of supernatural meaning.
In other words, they were astrologers.
The conclusion that a star is a “sign of the King of the Jews” is an astrological conclusion. The conclusion that a star is composed of helium and is 500 million light years away is an astronomical conclusion.
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Deo_Volente
Guest
Grace & Peace!
For the most part, our “civilized” age has forgotten about the world-as-symbol. We are much more comfortable wandering through deserts of data. The spreadsheet is closer to us and to our thinking than the poem or the myth. Science is the arbiter of truth and magic is something to be scorned. Consequently, our lives lack magic, are divorced from meaning, and are inundated with facts and statistics. We still respect religion, mysteriously, but expect it to be rational. We’ll pray to St. Anthony to help us find our keys, pray a novena prayer ritual, wear a saint’s medal talisman–but we’ll explain it all with some reference to Aquinas or the catechism and think we’re still the rational modern folks we wish to claim to be. We want proof, even if we have to make it up.
Needless to say I am convinced that the quantitative worldview is simply inhuman and quite unhealthy.
I’m reminded of this poem by Wordsworth:
The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers:
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
The Sea that bares her bosom to the moon;
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers;
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not.–Great God! I’d rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
This is a brilliant summation of what’s really at issue here–1) the qualitative worldview which sees the universe as symbolic, pointing to a Reality beyond itself and meaningful because of its relationship to that Reality; and 2) the quantitative worldview which sees the universe as a collection of data, essentially meaningless, but capable of acquiring meaning depending on how the data is organized and interpreted.
For the most part, our “civilized” age has forgotten about the world-as-symbol. We are much more comfortable wandering through deserts of data. The spreadsheet is closer to us and to our thinking than the poem or the myth. Science is the arbiter of truth and magic is something to be scorned. Consequently, our lives lack magic, are divorced from meaning, and are inundated with facts and statistics. We still respect religion, mysteriously, but expect it to be rational. We’ll pray to St. Anthony to help us find our keys, pray a novena prayer ritual, wear a saint’s medal talisman–but we’ll explain it all with some reference to Aquinas or the catechism and think we’re still the rational modern folks we wish to claim to be. We want proof, even if we have to make it up.
Needless to say I am convinced that the quantitative worldview is simply inhuman and quite unhealthy.
I’m reminded of this poem by Wordsworth:
The world is too much with us; late and soon,
Getting and spending, we lay waste our powers:
Little we see in Nature that is ours;
We have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!
The Sea that bares her bosom to the moon;
The winds that will be howling at all hours,
And are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers;
For this, for everything, we are out of tune;
It moves us not.–Great God! I’d rather be
A Pagan suckled in a creed outworn;
So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,
Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn;
Have sight of Proteus rising from the sea;
Or hear old Triton blow his wreathed horn.
Under the Mercy,
Mark
All is grace and mercy! Deo gratias!
A
Ahimsa
Guest
Christians are inheritors of a “deeper magic”, about which C. S. Lewis wrote in his Chronicles of Narnia. The Magi knew about this deeper magic. The average astrologer of the 21st century, regrettably, does not.
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