Moral issue of going to a VERY wiccan house and a VERY wiccan "family" friend

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There are people of all kinds of beliefs, and while we try and love/care about them, it doesn’t mean we should listen to what they want us to believe. We, alone have been blessed with the one true Faith. Since “tolerance” has been repeatedly preached by the secularists, we sometimes are lulled into the sense that hey-maybe what they believe isn’t so bad after all. In other words, we’ve been subtly brainwashed. Wiccans may be ''nice people" but these nice people are basically adoring false gods! They need to be prayed for, and gently led to the One True God. I’m more than a little tired of the ‘oh we’re all the same’ mantra. While it’s true God loves us all, it is our duty to lead those who are in false religions to the truth; not to be ‘tolerant’ of pagan worship. Remember just after 911 the mantra coming from the Left (where else?!) was (the terrorists) are “just like us.” That is, until they came to realize the terrorists were cutting off heads, and killing in the name of Allah! Point is we must be VERY careful, and not automatically assume “well-intentioned” people are all fine, and mean no harm. Remember, if they are not adoring the true God, they are being misled by satan, whether they realize it or not. Let’s keep these people in our prayers, and pray they are gently led to the Church. This is not about small differences in beliefs; do not be fooled!
 
thespian12 is spot on, as far as I am concerned. This is obviously a very hot topic and it seems to be engendering a lot of hostility, which implies to me, a sense of fear. When one is confident in their faith, there is no need for this hostility. Even though Jesus was beaten, spit upon and ridiculed, he never once became hostile towards those who obviously hated him. Since Jesus is our perfect example of how we should behave, we seriously need to examine our own hearts before condemning others.

When we become hostile and aggressive towards others, we not only lose all chance of helping another person to find Christ, we also endanger our own souls - because as we all know, the Devil uses anger to lead us astray.

Do we really want to become Inquisitors or “witch burners”? Aren’t those times long past? Is our faith so weak and so lacking in love that we can’t see that God is always calling us to lead our brothers and sisters to the same salvation that we enjoy through Jesus?

As for the comment that they already know about the Gospel – well, as has been pointed out already, just hearing “about” the gospel and Jesus is not the same as “knowing” Him and His love. I am a convert, from an agnostic family, and I can assure you all that even though I was raised in a “Christian country” and knew many Christians, I did not “know” Jesus until this grace entered my heart. I used to debate with Christians about the authority of the Bible, saying that it was only a history text full of myths and misunderstandings. Many Wiccans are probably coming from a state of mind similar to some of my friends, who can’t understand why I would want to belong to a Church that has allowed so many atrocities to be commited in her name down through the ages. Even good Cathlolics had to suffer at the hands of the Inquisition (including St Teresa)!

Mahatma Ghandi even went so far as to say *“Oh, I don’t reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It’s just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ.” *

There have been so many good points raised in this thread, and I am sure I can’t address them all, but I do want to encourage Catholics to look always to their Lord as an example of charity towards each other. We can win more hearts over to Jesus if we emulate His example in everything we do.
 
The fact remains that being a Wiccan is sinful and contrary to the first commandment. I agree that you should still be charitable towards them but I would still keep away if they make you the least bit uncomfortable.

I personally would not feel uncomfortable around them since I have known people who are Wiccans and they are pretty much leftovers from a Dungeons & Dragons fantasy world. I am confident enough in my faith not to be bothered by them.

I also choose not to associate with them anymore, not out of fear but I have no interest in that stuff. I would rather associate with people who will help me grow closer to God.

Anyway, they would probably end up feeling more uncomfortable than me if they began to preach that stuff on me because they would hear what I think of it.
 
Mea_Culpa said:
“I’m OK, You’re OK (and a demon worshipper)” is not a Catholic attitude. This is the notion of diversity and tolerance taken to an absurd level - we’re going to tolerate idolatry and devil worship because we don’t want to be “judgmental”?

Satan is real - he uses astrology, mediums, palm reading, crystals, etc. to gain a hold over people. Don’t play with fire, you will get burned.
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Do you know anything about Wicca or are you just basing your absurd ideas upon something that the Catholic Church told you?
 
I know about Wicca and it is not overtly demonic and evil but I think it is on a subtle level. It certainly has spells and worships nature and the earth goddess, all of which are in grave conflict with the first commandment.

It does not matter how well intentioned it appears, it is a false God plain and simple. And the promotion of worshiping false Gods certainly can be attributed to the Devil in some way.

It does not matter if it is called good magic or bad magic, white magic or black magic, it is still magic and against God’s law.

It contradicts the First and most important commandment of all

“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment."
 
I do know that we are not allowed to pratice magic in any form, nor to cosult astrologers, or fortune tellers…it is considered a sin…Remember Simon Magus, who tried to buy the Holy Spirit, in the new testament?

Scripture is very firm about not delving into the occult, even just for fun
 
If one is unsure of their own faith, then it is hard to help others. The sancitification of our own soul is paramount, but in helping others we also help ourselves…

*“Remember this: the person who brings a sinner back from his way will save his soul from death and cancel a multitude of sins.” * --Jas 5:20

I still believe that the secret is to increase our own faith, until confidence in the Holy Spirit is so strong that we are able to help lead others to the light of salvation through Jesus. Shouldn’t we be so happy in the grace of God’s gift to us that we want everyone to be able to share in this great joy? Loving those who are in ignorance in the first step to their salvation. It is true that they are in error, but to point this out without love will only serve to confirm them in their beliefs. Only fear and a lack of trust in our own faith will prevent us from bringing others to Jesus. First let us ensure that we are living examples of God’s love before we start telling others that they are misguided.
 
I totally agree with Michael, and see nothing ‘absurd’ about what he is saying. It all makes sense.
Sometimes too, the most charitable thing we can do for another person who opposes our beliefs is to love them from a distance. If their hearts are not open to the truth, and they have no intention of not being committed to God and His Church, first and foremost, then we still can pray their minds and hearts eventually be opened. I am extremely leery of any person or group who puts more respect into “the created” than The Creator. (think environmental extremism) That is certainly NOT what the Lord teaches!
 
Howl said:
Do you know anything about Wicca or are you just basing your absurd ideas upon something that the Catholic Church told you?
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You see, this is how it can start. First, someone asks you to be fair and open. Then if you are not they say that your ideas are absurd and attack the Church. Some perople feel guilty because of that and feel pressure to be more open and accepting of anything around them, mostly because in our society at the present time many of us tell each other you cannot judge (or discern) something until you know it - or even until you experience it. If you really start to think that, you fall into a trap, unless you are very strong in your faith and personal convictions, of seeking knowledge of this and that and the other thing and being swayed by your experiences and feelings and possibly other people. All in an effort to remain “open” and “fair”.

A person does not need to know something or experience something personally to understand it or discern the truth about it. The Holy Spirit assists Christians in their faith and their walk and provides discernment. This is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Sure, some people are just plain judgemental about others. But, in matters of faith, if you ask the Holy Spirit for His gifts you will be provided with discernment without necessarily having personal knowledge or experience of something.
 
In the first place going to a very wiccan house isn’t a moral issue, it’s a spiritual issue…something can be considered morally ok and still not be spiritually ok
 
Just a thought, but I feel like maybe perhaps we should begin a few other threads for the sake of keeping discussions organized. What say you guys? This has obviously been a very hot topic and has definitely branched out into several subtopics and discussions. I think that most of us have answered Medallionsnijme’s original questions as best as we can.

Now it appears that the discussion seems to be going from “What should I do?” to a theological discussion, if it even is a debate. It looks like a lot of us are in agreement: don’t mess with occult objects, and stay away from anything that will put ourselves in danger. Others here seem to be agreeing that IF we can, try to find a way to bring them back to Christ, whether it be through having some kind of friendship that involves engaging them in dialogue about the Catholic faith and charitably pointing out inconsistencies of their faith or “loving them from a distance.” Others say avoid it all together, and there’s nothing wrong with any of these views. All of us have our own parts to play in doing God’s will. Not all of us are called to directly evangelize this particular group of people, and obviously, the work can be dangerous. But then again, doesn’t any kind of missionary work have its own dangers?

I think the key is to be prudent in all situations and never do it alone, for those who do engage in some kind of missonary work (whether it be to the Wiccans, people of other faiths, or people of no faith). A few months ago I gave a talk about koinonia (community) and evangelization. One of the points I made was that it’s not just about “you and God” when it comes to salvation, it’s about “you, God, and everyone else.” In other words, salvation is a community effort. Though we are many, we are one body in Christ, and therefore we are all linked and in it together. Why not take that same idea and apply it to evangelization? We are never alone in anything we do, so why should we act as if we were? In community we find strength. In community we are also held accountable. Those who are called to be missionaries must constantly look to the community for support, strength, and accountability. Otherwise, they become like sheep who stray from the rest of the flock, vulnerable to the wolves.
 
This is in response to a post which labelled the OP as “insecure”. If being “insecure” means worrying about your soul being exposed to evil, then that is a compliment in Jesus’ eyes. I commend the OP for caring for her and her husband’s soul. Married couples have to be concerned for each other’s salvation. It is my prayer that the OP will continue to assist her husband in his salvation.

Mystic Warrior mentioned having bad interactions with Isis, Pan and other “gods”, or, demons. I agree that there is something creepy about Isis. I tried to wear some of her jewelry, when I was a pagan, but I kept having very weird feelings. Pan, now looking like a demon, obviously has demonic energies from what I can feel. Neopaganism is dangerous on so many levels, no matter which type you practice. You are working with demons. The Lord and Lady of Wicca are either nothing or demonic- either way, you are going against Jesus. It’s better to be safe than sorry- the OP knows this.

OP, I, too had problems with angel cards. I bought all the books that go along with that certain deck by a “virtue-ous” woman, that’s all I will say. I never got a good feeling from them. I thought “oh, I must be insecure!”, forged ahead with them. Well, I know the Holy Spirit was telling me that this stuff was evil. It’s not insecurity, it’s the Holy Spirit!

Never let anyone tell you it’s insecure or mental illness because you experience some fear when exposed to the occulty. It’s the Holy Spirit protecting you!
 
CAROLOFTHEBELLS said:
A person does not need to know something or experience something personally to understand it or discern the truth about it. The Holy Spirit assists Christians in their faith and their walk and provides discernment. This is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Sure, some people are just plain judgemental about others. But, in matters of faith, if you ask the Holy Spirit for His gifts you will be provided with discernment without necessarily having personal knowledge or experience of something.
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I have devoted a good part of my adult life to learning about every religion/philosophy under the sun and I’m still doing okay. I have an intense understanding of Wicca, yet I have devoted the last four months, several hundred hours, and thousands of dollars to establishing a street newspaper in my city so that people who would normally panhandle can actually sell something and deliver themselves from poverty. I am a practicing Buddhist, yet I have an incredibly good relationship with several Catholic priests. My personal beliefs are not always word for word from the catechism, yet truly open minded, free thinking people understand that I come out of goodness and I work to further the light. They understand that God showed me all of these different philosophies so I could learn to deal with, and hopefully save people who were raised in different value systems than I was.

If any of you actually had a clue about Wicca, you would know that the central tenet is something called ‘the rule of 3’. In Hebrew, the number 3 (gimmel) essentially means ‘justice’. Everything that you put out into the world will be revisited upon you several times over. If this lady actually casts a spell upon the lady’s husband to get him to become Wiccan, that will be revisited upon her many times over. If she manipulates him into doing something, someone will manipulate her into doing something far, far worse.

Therefore, real Wiccans who actually understand what they are practicing generally refrain from trying to recruit new members. They know that if they do, they might end up being recruited to join something they don’t agree with. So, if you discuss Wicca with a knowledgeable Wiccan, you will discover that they will answer your questions, but keep the proselytizing to a minimum. Most real Wiccans refrain from casting spells upon another because they are aware of the limitations of their conscious mind. If their motives are not 100% pure, they are going to lose in a huge, ugly way.

Perhaps if people knew this, they would be a little more tolerant towards her. Maybe if people knew what the pentagram means, they wouldn’t associate it with ‘satan’. And maybe if people opened their minds, they would see this entire debate for what it is.

There is a mentally ill woman who shows signs of several different psychological disorders. Through the grace of God, she has managed to attract people who could possibly save her. She has attracted people who could show her that, in her current mental state, Wicca is only dangerous to her. She has attracted people who could show her an easier approach - one that will give her the support she needs to heal before re-embarking upon whatever path makes the most sense to her.

Instead, close-minded people are seizing upon the negative connotations to images that the woman who reported this has seen. Rather than interpreting the visions as a sign that God will protect you because God loves you and because God sent you into ‘the lions den’ (so to speak), many people interpret them as a sign that this woman worships Satan and is the epitome of evil.

So, there is a troubled woman out there who is crying for help. These cries for help are being ignored by Christians who are scared because she is a devil worshipper. They crucified Jesus for his beliefs. Jesus beat death yet his followers are running around scared of a little system that, at best, revolves around listening to and communicating with your own subconscious.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the witch hunt end a long time ago? And correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t God omniscient and omnipotent?

If God is on your side and if you are strong in your beliefs, all the demons in the world can try to tempt you and you will still walk away with a smile on your face.

Only those with weak faith need worry about opening their minds.
 
I believe you are sincere, however you seemed to ignore the possibility that this woman could be possessed, and that is clearly something no one should be involved with except one who exorcises. As I believe I mentioned previously, sometimes the most loving thing we can do for difficult people is to love them and pray for them from a distance. Sometimes that is for our own physical and/or spiritual protection.
 
Howl - you’re not really a Buddhist if you believe in God. Most Westeners practicing what they call “Buddhism” don’t have a clue about what it really is. Do you believe in reincarnation? What school of Buddhism are you a part of?

As for Wicca, I know plenty about it. It’s like the McDonaldized version of witchcraft. Any dealing with magic and the occult is dangerous and definitely not for lay people to try to “evangelize” those involved in it. Many priests don’t want to get involved in exorcisms because of the danger involved. They know the devil is real.

The idea that our rejection of magic and the occult is just because we don’t know enough about it is nonsense. The Church has instructed lay people not to get involved with those things. I think the Church founded by Jesus Christ 2,000 years ago knows more about this than I do and I will follow their teachings on this matter.
 
Well, I don’t know much about philoshopy. In fact, I struggled with the one class I took in college. There will always be people who love to learn and understand about all religions and philoshopies, I suppose. Personally, I don’t think that makes a person more intelligent or more understanding than anyone else. Just more learned.

For many Christians it is enough that Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.” It may take a while for the Holy Spirit to give us the faith to truly believe these words and the conviction to follow along the narrow path layed before us by God, but when the Spirit leads us or gives us promptings it should not be confused with simple judgemental feelings or attitudes.

The thing I find interesting about the idea put forth by Howl that learning about all the religions and beliefs of people makes it easier to help them is that, while it may work for some it is not a necessary prerequisite to help people. Did Mother Theresa go to such lengths, or did she just do what needed to be done and remain in prayer? On a personal level, if I want to help a homeless person I see, do I need to know their religion or share mine?

As for the sort of “what goes around comes around” belief of Wiccan’s, many people - of whatever religion or no religion - belief that. It doesn’t change human nature. People still do harm and find a way to jusify it in their mind as harmless. A lot of us don’t even realize the harm we do. Anyway, that philoshophy seems a bit selfish. I shouldn’t do harm because it will come back on me. Come on! I shouldn’t do harm because it is not right. I should worry more about my relationship with God than what will happen to me.

Thinking about the OP’s situation and taking religion or mental illness out of the equation, I would say that this woman has a little too much influence over people in her life. I would actually say just stay away because of that and try influence your husband to do so as well (in small ways). Because I think she could come between you two. I just have that feeling. She kind of sounds like a pushy person. Sorry, just what I got out of the description. Oh, and I won’t go helping someone just because you think they are “crying out for help.” I’ve been in an abusive relationship and I know that thinking someone needs your help and patience while they are doing things against your welfare is not a healthy step.
 
First, I haven’t read all of this thread. Let me preface this post with that statement, so I apologize if I restate some things that have already been stated.

To the OP, I would stay away. We are instructed as Catholics not to mess with anything dealing with the occult, even if only subtly. Threre are two wonderful books out that deal with this by faithful Catholic priests, “Catholics and the New Age” by Fr. Mitch Pacwa, S.J., and “An Exorcist Tells His Story.” I can’t recall the name of the author of the latter book. However, he is an experienced exorcist and has some wonderful advice for normal, everyday Catholics. He does not go into great detail as to what happens in an exorcism as this detail could overwhelm and terrify someone who is not properly trained to understand and process it, like myself for instance.

I think that all to often, we try to tolerate everything as a society. The only thing we don’t tolerate is intolerance! This, however, is absurd. Wiccans believe things that directly contradict Christian faith. You can’t have it both ways. Personally, I don’t want to be tolerant of things that objectively will not lead us closer to God, because we never stay the same in the spiritual life. We are either growing closer to God or further away from him. Wicca does not lead us closer to Him, so the only other option is that it leads us further away. That is never a good thing.

I had to deal with this in my ninth grade CCD class yesterday. It was the last day of class and I wanted to let my students ask anything they wanted. So, I handed around note cards and let the kids write down questions to eliminate the fear of raising their hands and having to talk in front of their friends. One student asked if ouija boards were OK. Everything in my gut told me to say yes. That’s what our “open minded” society has instructed us to say. However, after explaining a little about what ouija boards are, I finally said, “My job is not to stand up here and give you a nice feel-good politically correct answer. The truth is that ouija boards deal with the occult and Satanism. They are very dangerous for your faith and no Catholic should use them.” Perhaps I offended someone, but frankly, that’s too dang bad. Hopefully, I inspired someone to go home and thrown theirs out and then go to Confession.

The point of this personal story is that your first responsibility as a wife is to help get your husband to heaven. By not wanting to offend him or hurt his feelings, you may be leading him away from Heaven. Obviously, be charitable, but the bottom line is the salvation of your souls. Do whatever you must to get away from anything dealing with the occult.
 
Thanks for telling those kids the truth about ouija boards. Yes- so true- society has become so ‘openminded’ the brains have fallen out. As the saying goes if you don’t fall for God, you’ll fall for anything, which is why we’re in the mess we are in today.
 
catheflower said:
This is in response to a post which labelled the OP as “insecure”. If being “insecure” means worrying about your soul being exposed to evil, then that is a compliment in Jesus’ eyes. I commend the OP for caring for her and her husband’s soul. Married couples have to be concerned for each other’s salvation. It is my prayer that the OP will continue to assist her husband in his salvation.

Mystic Warrior mentioned having bad interactions with Isis, Pan and other “gods”, or, demons. I agree that there is something creepy about Isis. I tried to wear some of her jewelry, when I was a pagan, but I kept having very weird feelings. Pan, now looking like a demon, obviously has demonic energies from what I can feel. Neopaganism is dangerous on so many levels, no matter which type you practice. You are working with demons. The Lord and Lady of Wicca are either nothing or demonic- either way, you are going against Jesus. It’s better to be safe than sorry- the OP knows this.

OP, I, too had problems with angel cards. I bought all the books that go along with that certain deck by a “virtue-ous” woman, that’s all I will say. I never got a good feeling from them. I thought “oh, I must be insecure!”, forged ahead with them. Well, I know the Holy Spirit was telling me that this stuff was evil. It’s not insecurity, it’s the Holy Spirit!

Never let anyone tell you it’s insecure or mental illness because you experience some fear when exposed to the occulty. It’s the Holy Spirit protecting you!
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Absolutely. Way back in the day, someone I knew only casually wanted to take out her ‘Tarot deck’ and cast my fortune. The whole thing really creeped me out, and I refused, and she kept after me, giving off creepier and creepier ‘vibes’, for lack of a better word. Eventually I had to stop returning her calls.
 
it does not matter how well intentioned some wiccans might be, it still blatantly goes against the first commandment

I would not call most of them possessed or demons, but I do think they are very misguided.
 
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