Moral sin is based on one's opinion

[Dancelittleewok]

I wouldn’t really say I have OCD. Maybe mild OCD. Anyway, I know the church is built on love, as was Jesus’ message. But I do think that it concentrates on sexual sins more than necessary and causes many people to feel guilty. I went to an all boys Catholic high school…I know about this well. My friend one time told me that the first time he masturbated he prayed and promised he would never do it again to God. Two weeks later he did the same thing. He continued to masturbate and he kept on feeling guilty. Almost 10 years later he is an atheist and I think that this guilt is part of the reason he was so open to the belief. I think that pushing guilt on people is wrong and it is making people leave the church. I just think that the church should go at it a different way. You know, don’t tell people that masturbation is OK, just don’t tell them to dwell on it and feel guilty about it. Tell them that you need to learn from your mistakes and not dwell on them.

After a while of feeling guilty, you start to resent what is making you feel guilty. And you could resent masturbation, or you could resent the church. And a lot of people are choosing the second.

First off, the Church doesn’t push guilt on anyone—that’s the conscience i.e. the intellect working with the will to say “hey, something is wrong and go to Confession”. Judging from your story, the emphasis here is in the dwelling upon it. After I commit a mortal sin, yes, I’d feel remorse but I’d also know that Christ is waiting for me in the Confessional. It’s highly likely that I’d fall again but still Christ is there in the Confessional.

It’s not like God said these are the conditions of sins and these are grave sins, and then left no means for grace–that would be truly cruel. However, God gave us the Sacrament of Confession in which we can tell Christ himself our sins, receive counsel, and spiritual healing and forgiveness.

I fail to see the connection between guilt and resentment and causality of “pushing guilt” by Church.

 

[Renko]

Wrong, both are mortal sins, masturbation and missing mass.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

In deference to Mr. Bleh, the grace of attending Mass is integral in sexual purity which is an imperative running through the Bible seen in the prophets using adultery as symbolic of the turning from God by the people of Israel toward idol worship. This is a major symbolic theme not to be taken lightly. The Persons of the Holy Trinity know this and abundant graces are available for one’s sanctification. Jesus fell in carrying His Cross and we will too but we can, according to Veritatis Splendor 103, be perfected by these graces.

It is in the saving Cross of Jesus, in the gift of the Holy Spirit, in the Sacraments which flow forth from the pierced side of the Redeemer (cf. Jn 19:34), that believers find the grace and the strength always to keep God’s holy law, even amid the gravest of hardships. As Saint Andrew of Crete observes, the law itself “was enlivened by grace and made to serve it in a harmonious and fruitful combination. Each element preserved its characteristics without change or confusion. In a divine manner, he turned what could be burdensome and tyrannical into what is easy to bear and a source of freedom”.

This gives one freedom from sin and not just eternal happiness but happiness and peace here amidst the trials of this present world. Happiness and peace not as the world gives but true peace that cannot be taken away by the world, as attested to by martyrs across the centuries.

Missing Mass is not just a rule, it is time worshiping God. Not giving an hour for Him is worthy of the Church’s precept of inherent mortality. It is also worthy from the standpoint of worshiping Him better and the peace that comes as a result of the transforming power of His Grace. In contradistinction to the Army’s aphorism, here we can truly “be all we can be”! This is true freedom and is available when we are sick of living as a slave to sin, inordinate sexual practices and indifference to God included, and are major ones at that.

 

[onmyknees]

Prettylarge,
I have to tell you that the Church was never wrong in it’s teachings. The dogmas of the Church have never changed for 2000 plus years. Jesus told the apostles that the Holy Spirit would come to them and they would be guided by Him in their teachings. John 20- 23. He also told Peter(after he had given him the keys to the Church) that what you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Matt 16. The small teachings are the ones that can be changed and some have. For example, not eating meat on Fridays, head coverings not required anymore, the mass changing from Latin to English, etc. The teachings on faith and morals have never changed. You are mistaken when you say that homosexual acts were not sins until recently. They have always been gravely evil. Read the old and the new Testament for evidence. I also would suggest that you read the early Church Fathers writings who were successors to the apostles. Some had actually been taught by them. They wrote about the mass in the very early Church. The mass then had all the same parts in it as the mass we celebrate today. Now about going to mass. Did you know that it is a commandment? Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath. Catholics celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday (Resurrection Day). The reason we go to mass is not only because it is a commandment of God but because is it is the re-entering into the suffering, death, and resurrection of Jesus’ sacrifice on Calvary. We are truly there with Him at mass. And all the angels and saints unite with us in prayer at mass. The mass is the most powerful prayer you can pray. At the offertory we are offering up the lamb of God (Jesus) to the Father and we offer up our own sufferings in union with Jesus’ sufferings on the Cross. We give thanks to God for everything He has given to us. It gives me chills when I go to mass Because it is so beautiful. Then the priest who is Persona Christi changes the blood and wine into the body and blood of Jesus. He is really truly present and when we receive His gift to us. We have the most intimate time to talk to Him and He makes us more like Him. What a grace! No one could keep me away from the mass. It literally is heaven come down to earth!

Now about birth control, masturbation and fornication. These sins do hurt the one who does these things and others. I was away from the Church for many years and I did all these things. I know now how bad it hurt me and my marriage. Why is birth control wrong? Well God created men and women for each other. The sexual union of a committed married couple is a beautiful giving to one another fully and totally. It is not selfish it holds nothing back. They become one flesh and are renewing their sacramental marital vows. It is both unitive and procreative. Unitive meaning they are brought even closer in love by giving to each other. Procreative meaning open to life. Now when one uses chemicals and or condoms they are closing off the openness to life. They are taking God out of the sexual act by saying no to the possibility of God creating a human soul. Now with Natural family planning (which is 98% effective when used correctly) the married couple remains open to life. There is a natural conscience in the heart of every person to know right from wrong. Now some have had their conscience desensitized by untruths being taught in universities and the world. I know my conscience was not formed well. That is why Jesus gave us His Church and the teachings so we can form our consciences to the Truth. Usually people have lustful thoughts about others when they indulge in masturbation. I know I did. This hurts others because it causes one to think about others in a way that takes away their human dignity. It can lead to viewing pornography at the same time. Also it has led some of the married to cheat on their spouse. It is a selfish act of indulging in yourself. Many become addicted to this sin. It can cloud us from the good truths because sin hurts the sinner the most. Psychologists say that masturbation is good for you but I know now that I have stopped that it took away from my marriage and almost ended it. Fornication is mentioned by Jesus in the new testament as a sin which leads to hell. We are created to be in a committed relationship for life and become one flesh. Having sex before being in a committed marital union can lead to broken hearts and feeling used among other things. The sacrament of confession is way better than a psychologist. I have been to both. When you pour out your heart to the priest (who is the representative of Christ) in the confessional you receive God’s infinite mercy and the weight of your sins is lifted. Then you hear the beautiful prayer of absolution and you are forgiven and healed. Far from causing any guilt. Yes, we may sin again but should never ever give up because when we fight Jesus is fighting with us. And when we fall He will always be waiting with open arms to forgive us. Jesus said to the apostles (the first priests) “Whose sins you forgive they are forgiven”. John 20

 

[prettylarge]

Thou shalt keep holy the Sabbath. Catholics celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday (Resurrection Day).

I just want to throw out there that near the end of Romans Pauls says that keeping the sabbath is for weak believers.

 

[Seatuck]

I just want to throw out there that near the end of Romans Pauls says that keeping the sabbath is for weak believers.

Yes, he is talking to Jewish Converts who kept both the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day. And to those who thought they had to keep all the Jewish laws in order to become
Christian . We do not keep the Sabbath. We keep Sunday- The Lord’s Day.

 

[prettylarge]

Yes, he is talking to Jewish Converts who kept both the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day. And to those who thought they had to keep all the Jewish laws in order to become
Christian . We do not keep the Sabbath. We keep Sunday- The Lord’s Day.

Well according to Paul you would be weak.

 

[chessmane4e5]

I just want to throw out there that near the end of Romans Pauls says that keeping the sabbath is for weak believers.

Paul also said something else at the end of Romans:

“I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded.” Romans 16:17-18

 

[lost18]

I actually have question.
I don’t know lately I find the bible very confusing. I do not doubt there is a God and I do not doubt Jesus as my savior. I was born, baptized and have done my first communion Catholic. I do not doubt that this is the right religion for me. Though what I am finding difficult is the bible. Not just the Catholic bible but every major Christian bible.

There are things that I don’t believe are matching up that just aren’t making sense. For example, the concept of masturbation that you guys are discussing. It is a sin because it is not natural for humans and it is against God correct?

What I don’t understand is why when our bodies develop and we go from being kids to preteens we discover masturbation. Boys from the earliest age of 7 and 8 discover it and girls a few years later. They arrive to it themselves with no outside forces telling them what to do, how to do it, if it is wrong or if it is right. Kids get the urge and automatically, if not within the first couple of times know what to do. They may not know what it is, why they like it, or what is happening…the fact is they just discovered something naturally.

So are all children who discover this, which I am sure 95% of all of us have gone through this if not a high percentage, going to hell? is this a mortal sin? AND further more if it is human instinct that leads us to masturbation, if God intended it to be a sin why would he create us with the instinct? I mean I don’t think anyone could argue the fact that masturbation is a natural behavior of humans, since like I said most humans discover it when they are children not knowing what it is to begin with. The devil is very evil but he doesn’t have the power to pull something off like that, to make humans do something instinctively. Also the devils temptation I believe can only be driven by outside forces, if the devil has the power to use our bodies against us, to tempt us with our own bodies then why wouldn’t God step in and stop him. The devil is essentially messing with something God created, hands on which then kind of effects free will. Free will seems to be the big key point, but children at a young age don’t choose to masturbate. They discover their bodies as their bodies are changing not knowing whether it is wrong or right, not being tempted by outside forces, but by what their bodies are doing.

I don’t know, does this make sense? I am not justifying masturbation by no means I’m just curious why this happens to humans at such an early age.

 

[chessmane4e5]

It is a sin because it is not natural for humans and it is against God correct?

What I don’t understand is why when our bodies develop and we go from being kids to preteens we discover masturbation. Boys from the earliest age of 7 and 8 discover it and girls a few years later. They arrive to it themselves with no outside forces telling them what to do, how to do it, if it is wrong or if it is right. Kids get the urge and automatically, if not within the first couple of times know what to do. They may not know what it is, why they like it, or what is happening…the fact is they just discovered something naturally.

So are all children who discover this, which I am sure 95% of all of us have gone through this if not a high percentage, going to hell? is this a mortal sin? AND further more if it is human instinct that leads us to masturbation, if God intended it to be a sin why would he create us with the instinct?

You are right that masturbation is against God, the sex act was created to be between a man and a woman, not oneself.

I can only speak for myself, but I started masturbating after I learned about it in sex ed in school. I am not sure if your 95% number is correct, I think it is lower.

To go to hell, it has to be a mortal sin. To be a mortal sin you need:

1. Grave Matter (it is)
2. Complete Consent (no one is forcing you)
3. Full Knowledge (if you discovered it, and do not know it is bad, then you do not have this.)

So, if someone has not been told or taught that it is bad, they are not committing a mortal sin, but they would still be committing a venial sin.

God did not create us to sin. He gave us free will, and when Adam and Eve went against Gods command we were spiritually separated from Him. Just because we say it naturally occurs, does not mean it right. For example, when I was younger I would get really mad at people for various reasons. Mad to the point where I felt like I could kill them. I could say this feeling occurred in me naturally.

I would also contend that the first few times a person masturbates their is a feeling of unsureness or guilt. There was for me, but I continued to do it because it also felt good, and was told in my sex ed class that it was natural and okay.

Thank God I know better now, although honestly even after I became Catholic I continued to masturbate at times, and it was not until I read the book in my signature that I fully committed myself to masturbating no more.

I hope this helps

 

[onmyknees]

Yes, he is talking to Jewish Converts who kept both the Sabbath and the Lord’s Day. And to those who thought they had to keep all the Jewish laws in order to become
Christian . We do not keep the Sabbath. We keep Sunday- The Lord’s Day.

prettylarge, Seatuck is correct. We keep holy Sunday the day Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus came and made a new covenant. He changed some of the old laws. He still taught to keep the commandments. When we go to mass we are also glorifying God and worshiping Him. We are showing our love for Him when we want to be there with Him.