Morality of jobs and what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my days on this earth?

[otjm]

Join the Trappists. You won’t have to worry about the ethics of money.

The heck you won’t! They not only have to maximize profits, the have to maximize time, as they only work 4 hours a day. Working only 4 hours a day, they have to wring every bit of profit out they can just to stay afloat. If they don’t maximize profits, their buildings will fall down; their clothes will become threadbare, and the brothers and priests who need medical help will…

Sorry, I think the OP would be offended by the fact that the Trappists need to make a profit just as much as anyone else who desires to pay their bills.

 

[otjm]

jmcrae, I get the feeling that you, puzzleannie and mercygate have a somewhat limited understanding on the dynamics of modern business within a capitalist environment.

rotfl

 

[otjm]

Maybe I’m crazy for thinking that Christ should be our first and our last, even in business, and all related activities.

No, you ar not crazy. However, whoever taught you about business, and whoever taught you about the Catholic faith, should both be keel-hauled for failing abysmally to introduce you to anything but the theoretical miasma you seem to be swimming in.

The more I read, the more I think you don’t want a real job, one that actually demands that you do something.

You seem to have no idea whatsoever how tenuous a hold any business has on existence.

Your encapsulation of economic theory would not even do justice to a Cracker Jack box. A basic rule of capitalism is that a product is only worth what a willing seller will sell for and a willing buyer will buy for. Your comments about cookies was absolutely hilarious! If anyone purchases them at twice the price they were sold for before, all that show is that they are worth twice what people previously paid for them; and whether the price is jacked up and then reduced, they will still only sell if the consumer is convinced they are worth the price. You have an extremely overblown concept of the effect of a “markdown” in price.

Starbucks offers scones and cookies and cakes; I do not purchase them because I do not feel they are worth the cost. I do, however, purchase coffee there occasionally because I am willing to pay the price they charge. I also have a latte machine at home; I felt the price they charged me ofr it was fair; in fact, given the amount of coffee that has gone through it, at a cost per cup, it is about a penny (U.S.) or less. And they made a profit! Was I ripped off? What a joke! O course not! Do they maximize profit? They better had, because if they don’t, they will only be a footnote in an undergraduate course in economics.

Maximization of profit to what you seem to think is an immoral level, in the real economic world only occurs when there is verly limited supply and large demand. And where there is large demand, someone else is going to find a way to do the same thing; and the net result is called “competition”; I suppose you think that is immoral too somehow. But that competition is what drives down prices. Check out any consumer electronics product for any lenght of time, if you think I am kidding.

I don’t know who taught you economics, but I would suspect they are trying to pass off Socialism in the guise of Catholicism. And of course we have the strange phenomenon of those who know few facts making major pronouncements about that which they know little and understand less.

 

[otjm]

Either sales is immoral or not. If it is not, then there should be nothing that a Christian could bring to the job. If you are saying that a person should bring their faith to the dealing, you are implying that something was wrong with it beforehand.

OK, now we know you do not have a degree in Philosophy. There are three possibilities; a job may be moral, or immoral, or neither. A moral job would be providing food to the hungry on a soup line; it is moral to feed the poor.
An immoral job would be that of a pimp; selling women’s sexual intercourse for a price.
A job that is neither moral nor immoral would be selling used cars; if one lied about the status of a car, that would be immoral; if one told the truth about what one knew about the car, that would not be immoral; but the job of selling used cars is neither moral nor immoral in and of itself.

Saying that one should bring their faith to a job implies that the job was immoral flies in the face of logic. It neither shows that the job was immoral or not immoral. It is your presumption that if one brings their faith to the job, that means that the job is immoral. But that does not flow from the statement.

I did not, and am not making this argument. Sales, within a business that seeks to profit maximise is usually immoral.

Why - because you say so? Sorry, pup, you had better do more than that. You are stating a conclusion with no evidence.

You have a mantra - maximizing profits is immoral; but you have yet to show any evidence to back up your statement. Maximizing profits only means that you have sold it for as much as a willing buyer would pay; but you have failed to show any evidence whatsoever to back up your judgement. In short, you have what appears to be something approaching zero experience other than hanging around the dorm bs’ing with your buddies over a pint of two. Quit making conclusions without any evidence.

That comment was tongue-in-cheek, and I am trying to face up to a reality, namely that capitalism dominates almost all aspects of Western activity. I am not trying to prove my way into doing nothing. The question I am asking is, how do we as Catholics survive, when most jobs ask us to comply with immorality?

You have set up the premise that most jobs ask us to comply with immorality; but all you have offered is your presumption that they do so. Posters have repeatedly said they do not; you simply ignore the statements.

Let me put it another way; if this was an exam, you would be getting somewhere between a D and an F. You offer no evidnece that maximization of profits is immoral. You show no understanding of basic economics of pruchase and sale. You seem to be insisiting that Catholicism somehow is backing your claim to ithe immorality of captialism, but other than that statement, you provide no evidence.

Like I said above, I am not looking for a fight on this.

In Jesus Christ,

No one else is looking for a fight either. What we do suggest is that you have no experience to put forth to show the supposed immorality you claim is everywhere; you put forth no evidence that the Church makes any such claim, and you show no basic understanding of simple economic theory. You say you want a job; but all jobs are immoral; you want to be a Catholic working there but when other Catholics say there is no problem, you simply roll out the same prejudices without evidence; and you give every appearance of someone who has spent more time in bull sessions i the dorm than hours in the textbooks. I agree with others; I don’t think you want to work. I think you just want an excuse that work is immoral.

Prove us wrong: show some evidence.

 

[anthony022071]

The heck you won’t! They not only have to maximize profits, the have to maximize time, as they only work 4 hours a day. Working only 4 hours a day, they have to wring every bit of profit out they can just to stay afloat. If they don’t maximize profits, their buildings will fall down; their clothes will become threadbare, and the brothers and priests who need medical help will…

Sorry, I think the OP would be offended by the fact that the Trappists need to make a profit just as much as anyone else who desires to pay their bills.

What the heck are you talking about? Maximize profits on what?
What companies are Trappist monks competing with?

 

[otjm]

All employees are (at least) supposed to work in line with business objectives. If the business mission is to increase value for shareholders, then that means a maximisation of profit. If this is NOT stressed over and above honest salesmanship then you are working in a good firm. This is not my experience of 99% of other firms.

Now, you have evidence of these businesses? You have worked for them? You have interviewed, in depth, those who have worked for them? 99% of what firms?

All I hear is beer talk.

Indeed, and apologies for the myopic definition, but the point still remains, that within most businesses, sales are more important than ‘ethical’ commitments.

You, who have not graduated from college yet, have more experience than those of us who have been in the workforce for 20, 30, 40 or more years. “Within most businesses” is nothing more than your presumption, not backed up with anything.

Yes, but I was referring to the normal practice found within most businesses. My point is summarised in the practice of commission on sales.

Now we shift to commission sales. Ah, yes. Hugh immorality. and how many of these jobs have you held? Oh, and yes, the manipulative salesmen; theya re legion, I guess, all making hugh immorla salaries.

People in commission sales only get paid if they actually accomplish something; so now, if they accomplish something it is immoral? Why, because the accomplished it? So all buyers are fools who part with their cash? Please!

I do understand this. Very well. It is what prompted this thread. I have already been in the position of running a unit within which I had pressure to go against the principles of the Catholic Faith. The definition, however, between ethical and unethical is highly, highly subjective, and if you are basing your position on working only within an ethical business, I can see how it is much easier to find these businesses and work within them, because ethicality is not so difficult to find.

You now are speaking of one experience of one business. You have yet to say what it is that was so highly offensive to the Cathoic faith.

Was it in fact something that was offensive to faith, or just something you could not accomplish?

 

[otjm]

What the heck are you talking about? Maximize profits on what?
What companies are Trappist monks competing with?

Well, Our Lady of Guadalupe was competing for a time with other companies which sold benches to churches. They got out of that business; into furniture making; out of that business; into book binding (they have competition there, but not as much); they make fruitcakes (some competition; though some would ask if anyone actually buys those things); they are a licensed and bonded warehouse for the local wineries (not a lot of competition; but some); they give retreats (could be competition there with other retreat groups), and they farm (and would certianly maximize their profits from that with wize plantings).

 

[Magicsilence]

Your comments about cookies was absolutely hilarious! If anyone purchases them at twice the price they were sold for before, all that show is that they are worth twice what people previously paid for them; and whether the price is jacked up and then reduced, they will still only sell if the consumer is convinced they are worth the price. You have an extremely overblown concept of the effect of a “markdown” in price.

otjm,

Thankyou for all your posts.

I started my thread in the middle of my exams and my brain was heavily stretched in different directions. So, while I don’t retract much of what I said, it was often put simplistically and tended to be judgmental in the way it came across. Sorry

I have read all of your posts, but I don’t feel the need to answer all your questions as I have learnt from them already. Thankyou

However, with regard to the cookies, people become convinced because of different reasons, but the objective value of the cookies remains the same. It is artificial in nature, and used to temporarily boost sales using psychology.

The concept that a product is only worth as much as the customer is willing to pay is true, but as the Efficient market hypothesis demonstrates, a transparent market is not always present.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[jmcrae]

What the heck are you talking about? Maximize profits on what?
What companies are Trappist monks competing with?

It depends on what they’re selling, doesn’t it? But they have to sell something, even if it’s just the idea of supporting a good cause through donations; otherwise, they will go broke and lose everything.

 

[rlg94086]

What the heck are you talking about? Maximize profits on what?
What companies are Trappist monks competing with?

Well, in the case of Chimay , other brewers and cheesemakers. Yum.

 

[ElizabethPH]

Well, in the case of Chimay , other brewers and cheesemakers. Yum.

Looks wonderful,

 

[anthony022071]

A basic rule of capitalism is that a product is only worth what a willing seller will sell for and a willing buyer will buy for.

And that is a dubious idea of “worth”. Basically what it amount to is a “take it or leave it” philosophy which can lead to gross unfairness in pricing. Anyone who makes a purchase,no matter how absurdly overpriced the product may be,can be considered a “willing buyer”,simply on account of the fact that he made the purchase.
So by that standard,a company that sells bread or medicine in a poor region where there is not much government regulation or competition from other businesses can charge as much as the people of that region can cough up. They have to take what they can get. Willing seller,willing buyer. Fair deal.

Starbucks offers scones and cookies and cakes; I do not purchase them because I do not feel they are worth the cost. I do, however, purchase coffee there occasionally because I am willing to pay the price they charge. I also have a latte machine at home; I felt the price they charged me ofr it was fair; in fact, given the amount of coffee that has gone through it, at a cost per cup, it is about a penny (U.S.) or less. And they made a profit! Was I ripped off? What a joke! O course not! Do they maximize profit? They better had, because if they don’t, they will only be a footnote in an undergraduate course in economics.

I doubt that’s the kind of maximization of profit he had in mind.

Maximization of profit to what you seem to think is an immoral level, in the real economic world only occurs when there is verly limited supply and large demand. And where there is large demand, someone else is going to find a way to do the same thing; and the net result is called “competition”; I suppose you think that is immoral too somehow. But that competition is what drives down prices.

It isn’t just where there is a limited supply or a monopoly on a product that there is immoral profit-making. When businesses are competing with each other,then they often engage in duplicity,shabbiness,rudeness,arrogance. And the people who work in those businesses often get nasty
with each other because there is competition within the company.
eir original sin with them into their careers,and their character flaws are manifested in their business dealings.
If the owner of a business is a habitual liar,or greedy,or manipulative,or ruthless,then those flaws will characterize the business.
The bigger the business,the greater the scope and opportunity for immorality.

 

[rlg94086]

Looks wonderful,

It is, but don’t drink their ale like a regular beer. It is 8-9% alcohol…in between beer and wine. No guzzling allowed!

BTW…I confess to drinking a Canadian equivalent because its cheaper…not made by Trappist monks…and French Canadian nonetheless!

 

[anthony022071]

Well, Our Lady of Guadalupe was competing for a time with other companies which sold benches to churches. They got out of that business; into furniture making; out of that business; into book binding (they have competition there, but not as much); they make fruitcakes (some competition; though some would ask if anyone actually buys those things); they are a licensed and bonded warehouse for the local wineries (not a lot of competition; but some); they give retreats (could be competition there with other retreat groups), and they farm (and would certianly maximize their profits from that with wize plantings).

Trappist monks are basically like medieval tradesmen,except that they don’t have to directly,aggressively compete with other local tradesmen or guilds.
They are not practicing the kind of mainstream competitive capitalism that large retail stores or super-markets do.
And they are not likely to engage in the bad behavior
that many competitive companies do,since they are dedicated to religion.

 

[rlg94086]

Trappist monks are basically like medieval tradesmen,except that they don’t have to directly,aggressively compete with other local tradesmen or guilds.
They are not practicing the kind of mainstream competitive capitalism that retail stores do.
And they are not likely to engage in the bad behavior
that many competitive companies do,since they are dedicated to religion.

I agree that their business practices are guided by their dedication to religion. So are mine, and I am a salesman in a secular company. We both have to compete though.

I can buy Chimay ale on tap at a pub in San Francisco or in a bottle at my local Cost Plus World Market. Somehow, I think the Trappist monks who make it may participate in some of the same business practices that their secular competitors on the tap or shelf next to them are engaged in.

 

[Magicsilence]

Somehow, I think the Trappist monks who make it may participate in some of the same business practices that their secular competitors on the tap or shelf next to them are engaged in.

Some perhaps, like making good products, or pleasing customers, but isn’t the reason behind these practices to be honest before God, rather than to bring home any extra bacon?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Some perhaps, like making good products, or pleasing customers, but isn’t the reason behind these practices to be honest before God, rather than to bring home any extra bacon?

You can be honest before God without producing any products or having any customers.

 

[rlg94086]

Some perhaps, like making good products, or pleasing customers, but isn’t the reason behind these practices to be honest before God, rather than to bring home any extra bacon?

I don’t know what the profit model is for Chimay, but the prices are not low. I’m sure they have salesmen who sell their products, though they may not be monks…maybe lay oblates though. They may maximize their profit in order to turn around and give a lot to charities.

You might be overthinking all of this.

 

[Magicsilence]

I don’t know what the profit model is for Chimay, but the prices are not low. I’m sure they have salesmen who sell their products, though they may not be monks…maybe lay oblates though. They may maximize their profit in order to turn around and give a lot to charities.

You might be overthinking all of this.

I think you are spot on, and the same applies to the rest of the thread.

Thank you for encapsulating what I have been grasping at! I will be working through these questions with my spiritual director with a view to finding a job. Thanks again for your posts.

In Jesus Christ,

 

[rlg94086]

I think you are spot on, and the same applies to the rest of the thread.

Thank you for encapsulating what I have been grasping at! I will be working through these questions with my spiritual director with a view to finding a job. Thanks again for your posts.

In Jesus Christ,

Great. I’m sure that whatever you choose to do, you will keep the presence of God with you.

Here is one of my morning prayers:

Lord, God Almighty, you have brought us safely to the beginning of this day. Defend us today by your mighty power, that we may not fall into sin, but that all our words may so proceed and all our thoughts and actions be so directed, as to always be just in your sight. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

Best of luck to you in your chosen field. If I have any advice from my life experience, it is to live humbly, and always within your means. Give charitably and build up your savings, so you can make it through any rough spots.