Morality without God?

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You are right on the money! I have been an atheist since my early twenties. I have lived a more “Moral” life than almost every “religious” person I know. And I did not need a God to do that. Religion inherently is not moral at all. Unless you believe that you should stone your bride to death on her fathers doorstep on your wedding night if you find she is not a virgin. All religion speaks of respecting other religions but yet inherently feel that if that person does not believe as they do then they are a lesser person and will go to hell. So immediately religion looks down on others…no matter what religion it is. The witch hunts and crusades are all examples of such inmoral traits. Lets face it the Bible was our 1st real try at explaining our universe and history. It was a good try…but way off base. No the Earth is not flat. No the sun does not revolve around the earth, and yes there are microscopic organisims that are responsible for plagues…Not from someone in the sky who is mad at us. The writers did not know such things but made an attempt. And if you say God wrote the Bible then why are there soooooo many contradictions. A perfect God should be able to handle the task of writing a book.
Where does the bible say the world was flat?

The contradictions - wwe can get into that on another thread.

You have morals because of the morality that existed before you. You did not live in a vacuum. And whether you want to believe it or not it is because of God.

Now prove your claim religion is not moral at all.
 
Leela:

I’ve been struggling with trying to figure out the charisma of a currently existing culture with a set of beliefs that fits your wished-for model. The culture I am speaking of started some 60 years ago. It was founded by a man: a “scientist/materialist”. For this founder, there was nothing but matter, energy, space, and time (MEST). His “science” was started on this premise as well as, shortly thereafter, his “culture” of believers.

As he studied MEST, for several years, he recognized a set of dynamics for existing things that he enumerated. The primary and most basic dynamic was the “Dynamic of Survival”; an extraordinarily provable "dynamic” to say the least. Just look at nature.

Then, one day, in the early 1950’s I believe, he had been invited to give a speech on what he thought the universe was all about, to some group. As he pondered what he might say in his speech, he walked past a coffee shop, or sandwich shop, or something, and saw two people sitting at a table, enjoying their consumables and in “communication” with each other. As he walked, he thought that he really didn’t have much to say to the group about a universe that merely consisted of matter, energy, space, and time. What struck him, at the moment he observed the coffee-shop pair, was that these two had somehow, before his eyes, possessed an amazing “one-ness”. There was a “supra-physical one-ness” between them: a "unity-reality” that was outside of the actuality-reality that we are immersed in and work with every day, in other words, the MEST reality.

It dawned on him that MEST, however immense, was unstable even if it was going to be around for a fairly long time to come. He also realized that the instability of MEST did not account for this categorical, ordered, supra-natural, “static” phenomenon before his eyes (as well as a number of other phenomena MEST could not explain - such as, how MEST came to be). He recognized that there existed a "static force”, a “static” something, separate from MEST, that it exists and must as well be, “cause” . He called this static the “Thetan”, from the Greek. He defined “Thetans” to be “us”. He thought that “Thetan” had less baggage and was, therefore, a more understandable word than “soul”, but, that both were largely synonymous. He further said that the phrase, “this person’s Thetan,” is an incorrect manner of understanding it, because we actually are the “Thetans”.

This science of nature posed, for its founder, the inevitable problems one might think it would: for the Thetan to be understood, in all of its ramifications and aspects, or, at all, it had to have “god-like” attributes. The Thetan, he “discovered”, is “self-caused”. We, each and every one of us, “postulated” ourselves into being. As Thetans we are “ethereal” things. As Thetans we “float” about in search of something physical to control. When we find a female that looks like she could be a “breeder” soon, we hang around and wait for the chance to inhabit her newly formed embryo. When the moment happens, we enter the physical embryo, take control of it, and, soon become a “human”. When we die, we are released from that old, worn out embryo—>body and go in search of new embryo—>body. Reincarnation is a must when you posit a soul but have no belief in God.

Interestingly, this “religion” originally rejected “abortion” just as do Catholics . The original rationale was that abortion was a violation of the primary dynamic of life, the Dynamic of Survival. If a Thetan violated this dynamic it would cause unbelievable psychological, psychosomatic, and possibly physical harm to the Thetan and her body. Therefore, the Dynamic was considered to be pretty much inviolable. Furthermore, the destruction of an embryo impeded the imperative of other Thetans from getting on with their attainment of the “me-directive”, or “goal”.

Ultimately, the rest of this religious-philosophy began to unravel soon after it began to be applied. It was thought that since the Thetan did not “die”, there wasn’t any moral imperative any more to continue to promote anti-abortion. If having a baby was relatively inconvenient, destroy the unborn piece of matter. The Thetan will be released, float around, and ultimately find a new body - so that its journey could begin again and it might ultimately become a higher level “Thetan". And many hundreds of abortions were energetically encouraged, and, in some cases, outrightly forced, in several key parts of the organization, over many years, precisely because of the “inconvenience” newborns posed to the culture.

This religious-philosophy culture does speak to an “ethics” and has its own “code” of morality. In fact, if a member violates some ethic, some act that affects his/her forward progress (thereby deterring the Thetan from getting on to the higher state of Being), that Thetan would be sent to severely rigorous counseling session(s) to get him/her corrected. It appears that, lacking a “quality” that is "of” God, the goals of their ethics counseling are humanistic and self-motivated. “Morality”, within such a system is really the whim of the founder, or the higher-ups, or, a vote of the herd. If it is not written about, do what you wish. A violation of ethics is nothing more than a violation against the culture - period. This is not a demonstration of “right morality”. Can anyone who believes that God is not necessary for “right morality” point to a god-void (or godless) culture of decency that has persisted – without murdering hundreds of thousands, or millions, of its own people to enforce its “code”?

continued . . .
 
But, I guess this is nothing more than an extremist atheistic-materialism and not the natural outcome of the belief system’s God-less nature.

What I believe I have provided is a modicum of proof against the claim that “God is not needed for morality” from the standpoint of the evolution of an actual culture, consisting of perhaps a few million people. Everything I have said can be validated by research and/or by enquiry from current and past followers of this pseudo-religious culture. And their results are not unique. There are a number of other god-void cultures that have ended in the same, or similar, place.

From what I currently understand, this religion is now struggling. They are struggling with courts. They were (and, to some extent, still are) struggling with the IRS. They are struggling against many, many possibly defrauded ex-members. They are struggling against the communities where they are located.

However, some of its members have a pied-piper ability to bring in followers with money so that they are continuing to receive a fairly nice cash-flow. Like the communists, who could get children to turn their parents in, they have a frightening way of squelching communication, distancing other members (whether blood or not) and/or banishing them forever from inter-communication, justified lies, justified withholdings of important data, and terrifying those who wish to leave the group.

This real-life example of where your God-void morality apologetics has taken a set of decent human beings, is proof that there can be no right morality as an outcome of it. For morality to be a serious, as well as a “right”, part of a culture, the humans in it must be participants in “divine goodness”. This cult is the actual expression of a “value” system that rests on “human flourishing” – on that which is anything else but divine.

JD
Sorry for the length.:o
 
What is the driving force to make moral choice to survive? Why should I care what goes on after I die?
I don’t know. What I do know is you can’t just say “God did it” (i.e. employ God of the gaps), and say that it’s answered.

All life is hardwired to survive, even non-human animals. This is a question that can be asked by anyone (believer or not), and we don’t have a definite answer.
It can be argued that child killing in the past was done to make survival easier for the parents. Laziness is a huge factor.
I’ve not heard of parents killing off their only offspring.

Not all morals are universal, but they can all be linked to survival.
 
The point I was trying to make in the parting shot you have such a problem with was simply this: we are talking in circles and it is fruitless and a waste of time at this point. Things are getting repetitive. Sure, we could get into a discussion on the Bible and the various claims on both sides - we could each quote experts, etc, etc… But to what end? Will either of us change their mind? No. And as it looks like we’re perilously close to name calling already, I don’t hold much hope for courtesy let alone respecful discourse.

If I implied superiority, it was unintentional. I was simply stating my point of view - it was not meant as a personal attack on you. I do not agree with you for very personal reasons. I was a Christian for 98% of my life. I am now an agnostic - I believe in the supernatural but not in any of the “revelaed” relgions of monotheist Gods, such as the Judeo Christian (J/C God - Cats & Dogs). I do not claim to know - indeed, quite the opposite. I have no idea and I readily admit it. I’m not trying to convert anyone, just saying what I think and why.

My basic philosophy is this: if religion helps you be a better person, get through life, etc., good for you. I have no problem with it. But I don’t believe it. I will at times engage in debate and discussion on the issue, but not past a point where civility is lost. Which is why I’m bowing out now.
swan,
i hope you find your way home.

i was nowhere near name calling, i was presenting what i thought were reasoned positions

but this is a place where we reason with one another, i don’t know your personal situation, but to support your claims you must provide a reason, people don’t know your personal story

my largest problem was the manner in which you left the conversation.

i thought we were debating the theme of this thread, if you don’t wish to have to defend your assertions, then you should blog.

no disrespect intended, but here you will be challenged to provide evidence for what you assert as we all are.

further let me suggest that some people (muslims, Jews, and Christians), may find your signatory iconography to be less than acceptable

remember, among many faiths iconography is a statement of theology. particularly for Catholics and most especially for the Orthodox.
 
Not all morals are universal, but they can all be linked to survival.
Not necessarily survival of the individual beyond reproduction. Maybe more accurately stated as survival of genes. Altruism in a naturalistic sense means passing on genes.
 
Morals are linked to survival. Since all human beings die, then morals point to survival in the afterlife.
In a religious sense, yes. But, in a naturalistic sense moral (altruistic) behavior means survival of genes and nothing more. Selfish genes.
 
In a religious sense, yes. But, in a naturalistic sense moral (altruistic) behavior means survival of genes and nothing more. Selfish genes.
Hi, me again. I would greatly recommend Selfish Genes and Christian Ethics, by Neil Messer of the U.K.
 
Hi, me again. I would greatly recommend Selfish Genes and Christian Ethics, by Neil Messer of the U.K.
Well, I am sorry but this book is a ridiculous attack on evolution theory. From a scientific point of view it is committed to ideas that are readily dispensed with by simply citing scientific facts. It is unfortunate that anyone would pin their religious position on such a poor foundation.

Science is real and so is religion. This book goes outside the bounds of both and should not be taken seriously.
 
As far as I am aware she didn’t reproduce and therefore didn’t pass on any genes. In the naturalistic view she didn’t contribute to human evolution.
Yes. In the naturalistic view she wasn’t altruistic. That was sort of my point—that it’s a silly view. 😃

Regarding Dr. Messer, whom I know personally: He has a PhD in theology AND a PhD in molecular biology. Have you—um—actually read the book, or are you basing your objections on the title?
 
Yes. In the naturalistic view she wasn’t altruistic. That was sort of my point—that it’s a silly view. 😃

Regarding Dr. Messer, whom I know personally: He has a PhD in theology AND a PhD in molecular biology. Have you—um—actually read the book, or are you basing your objections on the title?
Yes I have read the book. The science is very bad. Evolution theory is so sound that all of our biologic sciences are founded in it. To attack such a well documented body of science is very much on the fringe. The book is not a good basis for an opinion about evolution. He should stick to religion.
 
Yes I have read the book. The science is very bad. Evolution theory is so sound that all of our biologic sciences are founded in it. To attack such a well documented body of science is very much on the fringe. The book is not a good basis for an opinion about evolution. He should stick to religion.
I do not remember Dr. Messer ever once in the book attacking evolutionary theory (which he accepts, by the way). He was addressing the “selfish gene” idea, which is not necessarily the mainstream of evolutionary theory. I guess it’s the mainstream of Dawkins’ enthusiasts, perhaps.

On the merits of the book, I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Farewell for tonight.
 
I do not remember Dr. Messer ever once in the book attacking evolutionary theory (which he accepts, by the way). He was addressing the “selfish gene” idea, which is not necessarily the mainstream of evolutionary theory. I guess it’s the mainstream of Dawkins’ enthusiasts, perhaps.

On the merits of the book, I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Farewell for tonight.
Then I question whether, if you have read the book, you understand his attack on biological evolution.
 
As far as I am aware she didn’t reproduce and therefore didn’t pass on any genes. In the naturalistic view she didn’t contribute to human evolution.
i know what you technically mean

yet

i can think of few others who have contributed more to or evolution:)
 
Can anyone who believes that God is not necessary for “right morality” point to a god-void (or godless) culture of decency that has persisted – without murdering hundreds of thousands, or millions, of its own people to enforce its “code”?
Hi Daniel,

According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005), the most atheistic societies like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom are actually the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality.

Conversely, the fifty nations now ranked lowest by the UN in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious.

Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality. Belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction, societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God, each factor may enable the other, or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society’s health.

Best,
Leela
 
Hi Daniel,

According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005), the most atheistic societies like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom are actually the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality.

Conversely, the fifty nations now ranked lowest by the UN in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious.

Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality. Belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction, societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God, each factor may enable the other, or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society’s health.

Best,
Leela
what they prove is that the United Nations’ Human Development Report is biased,

statistically, the healthiest countries being atheist and the bottom fifty being religious is almost impossible.

those kind of results scream for an in depth examination of their methodology.

that kind of evidence is so biased that one might think it was specifically calculated to support a certain view point as opposed to a non-partisan report.

indeed thats so bad its almost insulting. :rolleyes:
 
Evening Leela:
According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005), the most atheistic societies like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark, and the United Kingdom are actually the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per-capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate, and infant mortality.

Conversely, the fifty nations now ranked lowest by the UN in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious.
Nice attempt to slip in the fallacy of Cum hoc ergo propter hoc. 🙂
Your source, BTW, mentions nothing about morality, or religion. To try to bring morality and/or religion into the conclusions of that report is the mother of all stretchs.
Of course, correlational data of this sort do not resolve questions of causality.
Kind of thought so.😉
Belief in God may lead to societal dysfunction, societal dysfunction may foster a belief in God, each factor may enable the other, or both may spring from some deeper source of mischief. Leaving aside the issue of cause and effect, these facts prove that atheism is perfectly compatible with the basic aspirations of a civil society; they also prove, conclusively, that religious faith does nothing to ensure a society’s health.
I don’t even want to answer these absurd and assertions. They’re just random, irrelevant statements hung out there to try to bait someone. Again, nice try!

JD
 
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