Morality without God?

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Here is an interesting connection:

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Very interesting. The world was a very prophetic place in its early days. One could say that those who were alive then, were all, somehow, suffering under some worldwide delusion. Or, CatsAndDogs is right, “We have never been without God.”

Historically, all of mankind got its start in Mesopotamia, the so-called cradle of civilization. All men would all have received the first man’s (and woman’s) implanted knowledge of God and the future of the world. It was left to them then to simply sit back watch it unfold. But, we Fell.

Subsequently, the monotheistic God, in my opinion, was naturally distorted by some, into polytheism and other horrendous manifestations. So, from its earliest beginnings, God knew He would later on need to give primative thinkers a little more to go on where knowledge of Him is concerned.

So, He shuffled us up, i.e., changed our common language at the tower. This caused us to scatter. Doing this further removed our universal understanding of Him so that we could work (our punishment for our participation in the Fall) to gain Him back through Faith flowing out of Free Will. The win-win was that God got what He wanted from us as well: an UNFORCED desire for communication with Him.

All that was needed to further the prophecy was the Incarnation of the Word.

A giant delusion most likely would have resulted in the utter destruction of human life on this wonderful planet, I believe, as we would then not have an end, or final purpose. Without a Final purpose, without God, we would not have had a compelling impetus to combine forces and continue together, except for the fear of pain. Fear of pain would have resulted in further scattering to the point of solitarianism. We would have become food for animals, other men, and disease. There would be no reasonable reason for an ascesis (I think it’s spelled properly) in morality, to higher and higher levels of Good.

It’s strange: I cannot “prove” that I am right, but, I can “see” that I am right. I think I can prove bits and pieces here and there and that’s the way it should be, otherwise, I would not need faith and would, for all intents and purposes, actually be FORCED into communication with Him.

JD
 
It is impossible to be comprehensive in these posts as they only permit so many words - and, rightly so. There are thousands of books and millions of words to provide further - and far better -explanation.

However, at the risk of being pretentious, but, not the desire to, I will try my best, with everyone’s help to further explain any assertions you believe that I have made in the foregoing mini-treatise.

Thank you for your indulgences.

JD
 
Very interesting. I captioned this because I want to come back to it at a later time, with your permission.

JD
If for some reason you are concerned about how you’re going to address this, feel free to send me a private message. Otherwise, go for it. Just try to keep it in context. And if you need clarification on what I mean, feel free to ask.

Blessings
 
Very interesting. I captioned this because I want to come back to it at a later time, with your permission.

JD
If for some reason you are concerned about how you’re going to address this, feel free to send me a private message. Otherwise, go for it. Just try to keep it in context. And if you need clarification on what I mean, feel free to ask.

Blessings
 
Goodness is a measure of behavior.
Do you mean it s a subjective preference on your part?
If you see the colour red, but then I say no, that s the colour blue, what basis is their for claiming that anyone of those accounts are true unless we both believe that our subjective point of view in some way shape or form represents an objective truth about the core structure of reality? There is simply no point in speaking about it as a truth once you have removed the objective basis for making the claim in the first place. Yes…it is true that you see red, and it is also true that I see blue, but they cannot be both true about objective Events. If one of them is true, then it is not only true in my mind but in objective reality also. Why? Becuase the experience originates in objective reality, not in my mind.

The fact that you feel that something is wrong is not in itself a proof of the existence of right or wrong. My experience of moral truth infers the existence of moral law, but if it is to be anything but a deception of my brain activity, then the very thing (the standard or the measure of choice) that makes any particular behavior immoral has to exist out side of my brain; or rather apart from it. In other words, perfection has to exist objectively, and has to have always existed, since the truth is always true just like 2 + 2 is always a logical truth of numbers; it never changes. More importantly, we have to know why things are true. Things are true because the ground of all being makes those things true, as in, they naturally flow or emanate from the ultimate reality of things; the ultimate being from which all things came into being—including our senses. Therefore my sense of moral law, on the premise that my senses reflect the truth of objective events, infers that the ultimate reality of being is in fact perfection, so far as I feel a moral duty to act perfectly towards other people and can sense when I act imperfectly. This is what the Christian means by God; the being which meaningfully defines and measures all beings, and is the ultimate cause of all things.

Subjective preferences, on the other hand, tell us nothing about how we ought to behave. All you have said is that you do not want to die or be hurt and that you have a plan about how human beings can go about not hurting you and other people; you are dogmatically imposing your values on people. But that does not mean that those who disagree with you are immoral or wrong. Why are they wrong? What if I think I am right about killing you? What if it benefits me to kill you. If you base morality on personal benefit, then it seems that you system has a fatal flaw, and there no reason to consider the whole of society if you are benefiting as an individual. What universal standard do you have which tells us that I am mistaken? Simply claiming that my hurting you is not to your benefit; doesn’t really say anything about my behavior at all; accept that I do not care about what you want. Your definition of morality is a meaningless straw-man. It is more meaningful to claim that the ground of all being is perfection/good, because then there is a real standard to which human beings are meant to live up to, and this in itself makes better sense of moral law. It makes sense of my giving up my life and existence for another person. Not only that, it sanctifies and frees us from the subjective fallacies of other creatures.

People often claim that there is no reasoning behind Christian dogma and morality. This is not true. The Christian is full aware of the nature of love and good like everyone else and absolutely sees the value of reason in applying those values to society; and have done so for centuries despite those imperfect Christians who ruined it for the rest of us. Catholics also believe in the progression of moral understanding and are well aware of their faults and of the need to meditate on love and goodness.

We all sense that right and wrong exists; and objectors are simply in denial or they fail to comprehend what that means. But to say that I am wrong to bomb a children’s home, outside an appeal to the objective existence of good as a foundational truth about real events, is a fallacy on your part if not a complete lie. To say that the greater good doesn’t have to objectively exist is like saying that the truth doesn’t have to be true in order to be true. It’s an unforgivable contradiction. I believe in right and wrong because I sense that there is an objective good that people fail to live up to. To sense good, is to sense its objectivity; to say that it is not objectively true of reality, that it does not reflect a transcendent perfection which eternally measures our behavior, and then claim that someone’s behavior is imperfect, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever! I would advise you take a course in logic, since you cannot know that something is moral, unless the standard is real. Out of nothing comes nothing. Wrong is a lack of good, it is to act in opposition to a law of reality, a perfection that one ought to be in union with; it is an eternal truth about the reality of freewill and behavior. It was always wrong to kill for selfish gain before humans ever existed. It is not a matter of mind, space, or time. Good is universally true regardless of subjective opinion. Such a truth necessarily transcends the mind and the universe. It is the ground of being.

To be continued…
 
So far as my proving the existence of moral law is concerned, I have one idea that I think points to the likely-hood of good reflecting actual events. It goes like this………………

Under certain circumstances I feel guilt. Now; it is clear to me, that people can have a “false sense of guilt” when false propositions are mixed up with genuine applications. But one cannot deny that most of the time our capacity for guilt has a meaningful objective extension so far as it correlates with free human behavior. There is an objective standard and my guilt appears to reflect that standard. Even more peculiar, my sense of guilt implies that the actual existence of “personal beings” in the universe, given that they have free-will, is intimately tied with a moral “responsibility”, which human beings must fulfill at all costs. The fact that our capacity for guilt exists simultaneously with are capacity to reason and act freely, is a powerful suggestion that human beings are governed by a universal moral law and that we where created for the purpose of doing good. To say that this is a coincidence is failing to see the significance of it at all.

The existence of moral law, implies and infers that we exist for a purpose, and that we exist for the purpose of being good and expressing that good. The existence of Good implies a moral lawgiver, a God. If one cannot see that, I would rather that you did not reply to my posts.

If this standard is just a subjective invention of society, then it is just a fantasy. An honest Atheist rejects God because they feel there is no empirical proof for the objective existence of such a being. But there is a catch. There is also no empirical reason to uphold the objective “truth” and existence of the moral “good” either. So if we are to remain honest atheists, we must reject any false notion of good so far as it labels objective behavior. Otherwise we must be content with being fantasists and liars (forgive this blunt statement of fact). This is because Good has no objective extension in reality. Nihilism is the only way for those who reject fantasy. The difference between belief in God and a godless morality is that belief is about what we lack evidence for; a godless morality is something we “know” to be untrue. So which one is more reasonable?

If there is no God, and if we are so concerned about the “subjective-good” and the potential existential suffering that might inflict future generations…then maybe we should all become sterile and put and end to humanities suffering, so that the potential human does not have to suffer. There’s nothing to say that they ought to exist, and you wanting them to exist is just a selfish notion born out of an evolutionary drive to replicate. Why subject them to the potential cruelty of other creatures, and the inevitable fear and variety death that nature has in store for all us? Isn’t that bad? Existentialism, Superman Philosophies, and Humanism as a means to a better society which provides us an objective truth, morality and value, cannot help us. This is why humanity, seeing nothing in life, has naturally turned their hopes and reasoning elsewhere. We turn to God, while others stubbornly turn hopeless ideals.
 
So far as my proving the existence of moral law is concerned, I have one idea that I think points to the likely-hood of good reflecting actual events. It goes like this………………

Under certain circumstances I feel guilt. Now; it is clear to me, that people can have a “false sense of guilt” when false propositions are mixed up with genuine applications. But one cannot deny that most of the time our capacity for guilt has a meaningful objective extension so far as it correlates with free human behavior. There is an objective standard and my guilt appears to reflect that standard. Even more peculiar, my sense of guilt implies that the actual existence of “personal beings” in the universe, given that they have free-will, suggests that there is an objective “responsibility” intimately tied with freewill, which human beings must fulfill at all costs. The fact that our capacity for guilt exists simultaneously with are capacity to reason and act freely, is a power suggestion that human beings are governed by a moral truth. To say that this is a coincidence is failing to see the significance of it at all.
The existence of moral law, implies and infers that we exist for a purpose, and that we exist for the purpose of being good and expressing that good. The existence of Good implies a moral lawgiver, a God. If one cannot see that, I would rather that you did not reply to my posts.

If this standard is just a subjective invention of society, then it is just a fantasy. An honest Atheist rejects God because they feel there is no empirical proof for the objective existence of such a being. But there is a catch. There is also no empirical reason to uphold the objective “truth” and existence of the moral “good” either. So if we are to remain honest atheists, we must reject any false notion of good so far as it labels objective behavior. Otherwise we must be content with being fantasists and liars (forgive this blunt statement of fact). This is because Good has no objective extension in reality. Nihilism is the only way for those who reject fantasy. The difference between belief in God and a godless morality is that belief is about what we lack evidence for; a godless morality is something we “know” to be untrue. So which one is more reasonable?
If there is no God, and if we are so concerned about the “subjective-good” and the potential existential suffering that might inflict future generations…then maybe we should all become sterile and put and end to humanities suffering, so that the potential human does not have to suffer. There’s nothing to say that they ought to exist, and you wanting them to exist is just a selfish notion born out of an evolutionary drive to replicate. Why subject them to the potential cruelty of other creatures, and the inevitable fear and variety death that nature has in store for all us? Isn’t that bad? Existentialism, Superman Philosophies, and Humanism as a means to a better society which provides us an objective truth, morality and value, cannot help us. This is why humanity, seeing nothing in life, has naturally turned their hopes and reasoning elsewhere. We turn to God, while others stubbornly turn hopeless ideals.

An objective truth as apposed to subjective fantasy, as a concept, is such a simple system of logic to grasp and yet people fail to see the error that they are promoting. We take things for granted. An un-conscious Pride and a will to Power can do this, so far as man wishes to be the “measure of all things”.
Trust me; I have been in denial many times, so I know what the roots cause of it is. “Lack of control and identity

I have not once said that an atheist cannot recognize some aspects of the greater “good” (Which is a blue elephant that posters keep squeezing into the discussion), neither has anyone denied that some behavior is more pleasing to the mind then others. This is obviously true. But morality is not just about what is pleasing; it is about what is objectively true. You are no longer talking about morality (right and wrong) if you are merely expressing you preference in certain circumstances. You are merely arguing that certain behavior promotes your survival, and then you have applied this concept to other people’s circumstances; but you have not once shown any objective truth or reason why people “ought” to promote your survival; since promoting your survival isn’t always beneficial to the individual or the whole. Your appeal is ultimately an expression of self, not love.
However, if you believe or feel that it is “true” that murdering five children is wrong, and that the Murderer ought to feel guilty about what they have done, then the recognition of such a reality as being an expression of fundamental truths about our behavior and how we ought to behave as animated objects, cannot help but infer the existence of other realties beyond the strictly material.

There are consequences that result from acknowledging the truth of “Moral statements”, whether we choose to accept it or not. You cannot have one with out the other and then pretend to be more rational then the theist just because they believe in a moral law giver, or a transcendent and perfect reality. The Theist is rational so far as they accept and trust the objective inference of their senses. And good is evident to all human beings so far as they have senses. Hence the term, “Common-sense”.
Could you, for those of us less inclined toward lengthy reading of prosaic prose, distill this missive into more easily digested volume?

Given enough time I bet this could be said in far less words which might well result in much more understanding, if you do in fact understand what you mean.
 
Continued…

I have not once said that an atheist cannot recognize some aspects of the greater “good” (Which is a blue elephant that posters keep squeezing into the discussion), neither has anyone denied that some behavior is more pleasing to the mind then others. This is obviously true. But morality is not just about what is pleasing; it is about what is objectively true. You are no longer talking about morality (right and wrong) if you are only expressing your preference under certain circumstances.

You are arguing that certain behavior promotes your survival, and then you have applied this concept to other people’s circumstances; but you have not once shown any objective truth or reason why people “ought” to promote your survival; since promoting your survival isn’t always beneficial to the individual or the whole. Your appeal is ultimately an expression of self, not love.

However, if you believe or feel that it is “true” that murdering five children is wrong, and that the Murderer ought to feel guilty about what they have done, then the recognition of such a reality as being an expression of fundamental truths about our behavior and how we ought to behave as animated objects, cannot help but infer the existence of other realties beyond the strictly material.

There are consequences that result from acknowledging the truth of “Moral statements”, whether we choose to accept it or not. You cannot have one with out the other and then pretend to be more rational then the theist just because they believe in a moral law giver, or a transcendent and perfect reality. The Theist is rational so far as they accept and trust the objective inference of their senses. And good is evident to all human beings so far as they have senses. Hence the term, “Common-sense”.
 
Could you, for those of us less inclined toward lengthy reading of prosaic prose, distill this missive into more easily digested volume?

Given enough time I bet this could be said in far less words which might well result in much more understanding, if you do in fact understand what you mean.
Sorry.
 
Morality functions to foster human flourishing through human solidarity, so from a pragmatists point of view, that is what morality is.
This definition equates morality with functionality: what is beneficial to the group is moral, what is harmful to the group is immoral. Or am I misunderstanding you?
Morality based on mandates from gods has resulted in behaviors such as human sacrifice that none of us would consider moral.
Morality based on human definitions have resulted in “behaviors none of us would consider moral” also - see Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. If you don’t accept that their examples prove anything then don’t try to disprove that God is necessary for morality by throwing out a few examples of where people got it wrong. By the way, it appears that your definition of morality would embrace human sacrifice if it was effective. That ancient societies were ignorant about the effectiveness of their actions shouldn’t cover the fact that they were acting in accordance with your view of morality that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
You would be correct that a perspective on morality as concerned with human flourishing would mean doing away with certain taboos such as for masturbation.
The specific example you give here is irrelevant but the point is important: you claim as fact that the elimination of taboo X would increase human flourishing but it is a claim you cannot a priori make. I suspect Pol Pot thought much the same about his changes. We deplore his actions based on conventional morality; your standard can deplore them based only on their ineffectiveness but if they had worked you would have no basis to reject them. That is, you can’t know whether an action is moral until you learn the outcome which sets up the situation where the same action in different circumstances can yield different results thus the same action can be both moral and immoral.

Ender
 
Hi Petey,

What do you mean by “the validity of the Bible”?

Best,
Leela
i am sure that you know that i mean it in the practical sense, im not cats, too argue endlessly on definitions, but if you like i may post websters definitions.🙂

and let me pre-empt the next most likely question, can i prove it wasn’t all written in the first century.

indeed i may accept both the Jewish history of the last 5,000 years, and vast reams of physical evidence.

and should you further doubt, there is a wall in Jerusalem, a Most Holy place, that is the physical remains of the Temple.
 
The existence of moral law, implies and infers that we exist for a purpose, and that we exist for the purpose of being good and expressing that good. The existence of Good implies a moral lawgiver, a God.
M-O-M,

I save some of the most compelling posts from CAF to a file on my desktop named “Gems”, and I noticed that I’ve been saving many of your entries. I appreciate your clear, detailed explanations, and that you avoid using esoteric philosophical terminology.

Thank you.
 
Hi Mindovermatter,
Do you mean it s a subjective preference on your part?
If you see the colour red, but then I say no, that s the colour blue, what basis is their for claiming that anyone of those accounts are true unless we both believe that our subjective point of view in some way shape or form represents an objective truth about the core structure of reality? There is simply no point in speaking about it as a truth once you have removed the objective basis for making the claim in the first place. Yes…it is true that you see red, and it is also true that I see blue, but they cannot be both true about objective Events. If one of them is true, then it is not only true in my mind but in objective reality also. Why? Becuase the Hi Mindovermatter,experience originates in objective reality, not in my mind.

The idea that what you experience originates in objective reality is a good idea that no one denies. However, note that it is itself an idea that originates in the mind like all ideas. Objectivity is confirmed only by our subjective viewpoints.
MindOverMatter;4401843:
The fact that you feel that something is wrong is not in itself a proof of the existence of right or wrong. My experience of moral truth infers the existence of moral law, but if it is to be anything but a deception of my brain activity, then the very thing (the standard or the measure of choice) that makes any particular behavior immoral has to exist out side of my brain; or rather apart from it. In other words, perfection has to exist objectively, and has to have always existed, since the truth is always true just like 2 + 2 is always a logical truth of numbers; it never changes.
I don’t see why perfection has to exist objectively as an essence for there to be knowable moral truths.

Also, in what sense has 2+2 always existed? How could numbers exist before there were human beings to invent them or human language and human minds to hold them? Trying to comprehend what sort of existence numbers could have without human minds, I’m left thinking about the sound of one hand clapping.
More importantly, we have to know why things are true. Things are true because the ground of all being makes those things true, as in, they naturally flow or emanate from the ultimate reality of things; the ultimate being from which all things came into being—including our senses.
Why must the ground of being be itself a personal being?

to be continued…

Best,
Leela
 
WOW! [Edited] Your lack of facts and REAL information is glaring. Step back and use some concrete information. I know followers of religion don’t do well with “concrete” information and would rather follow what has been washed throughly into their head since they were infants (a persons most impressionable time in life) but please step back and use some common sense. I apologize for the harshness of the response but I’m exhausted by the amount of mind-numbing senselessness spewed by people who like yourself are most likely so intelligent in other areas of life. Please watch here in the coming days as I insert information/questions that I and others heve compiled through the years that remain unanswered by the religious and that shine a gigantic spotlight on the untruthfulness of the origins of religion.
 
WOW! [Edited] Your lack of facts and REAL information is glaring. Step back and use some concrete information. I know followers of religion don’t do well with “concrete” information and would rather follow what has been washed throughly into their head since they were infants (a persons most impressionable time in life) but please step back and use some common sense. I apologize for the harshness of the response but I’m exhausted by the amount of mind-numbing senselessness spewed by people who like yourself are most likely so intelligent in other areas of life. Please watch here in the coming days as I insert information/questions that I and others heve compiled through the years that remain unanswered by the religious and that shine a gigantic spotlight on the untruthfulness of the origins of religion.
Please. Spare me. You have made nothing but abusive assertions in the first place. I doubt that you have anything accept more of the same.

Peace.
 
eddydenton

Thus we shouldn’t assume to know the will of God. Even though the bishops and scholars who wrote cannon law claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit, this is itself open to deception. How is one to know that as they are receiving spiritual inspiration it is coming from God and not another spirit, even the devil?

“Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” Straight from the mouth of Jesus. Matthew 16:18
 
MORE OF THE SAME??? When has religion added anything NEW to our world? It has’nt And that is why more people are starting to see the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain is a mere mortal.
 
I look forward to your engaging with the topic of the thread. Please read the first post to identify it.
 
MORE OF THE SAME??? When has religion added anything NEW to our world? It has’nt And that is why more people are starting to see the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain is a mere mortal.
What do you expect religion to add to the world?
 
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