Morality Without Religion?

[fix]

john doran:

you misunderstand his post: it’s precisely because hitler apotheosized himself that his regime involved moral absolutes - namely, anything that was contrary to what he wanted was wrong, for everyone everywhere.

hitler accepted that there was only one truth: his truth.

I guess we need to define our terms, again. A moral absolutist is one who accepts that God is the author of all things and is truth.

If one binds himself to Satan, one may call themself an absolutist, but that would be incorrect in the sense we all mean when speaking of moral absolutism.

Hitler, as one example, was not an absolutist. He defined truth by his personal views, not from an outside authority. That is relativism by definition.

 

[kim_wilson]

Thanks Gil! He’s already become pro-life through the intercession of St. Therese of Lisieux.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

KIM

I see an RCIA candidate coming down the aisle!

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

TO ALL:

True religion will always have to contend with its greatest sinners, but at least there is more often than not a moral leash though the Church to hold them in check.

False religion can produce false morality, just as atheism can produce Stalins, Hitlers and Maos. If you ask me to choose between Islamic Iraq and atheistic Russia under Stalin … what a choice!

But if you ask me to choose from Islamic Iraq, Buddhist Japan, atheistic Hitler’s Germany, Mao’s atheistic China, Stalin’s atheistic Russia, and Christian America … for all its faults … you know where I’ll land.

If this thread is coming to a close, I have to conclude from our discussion that no one has proven how to manufacture and sustain a moral glue that will hold a society together in the absence of a personal God. As America slides down the rope of relativism toward a god-defiant culture, its moral glue will surely disintegrate and we will all … Christian, Jew, Muslim, atheist … find out that melted glue is hard to navigate. Nor would atheists ever be able to take satisfaction that everyone is atheist when they are knee-deep in moral chaos.

Thank you all for your spirited contributions.

God Bless,
Gilbert

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

So I guess you’d rather raise your children in Japan than in the U.S.A.

Anytime.

Seems you’ve conveniently forgotten about Pearl Harbor.

No, and I haven’t forgot Commodore Perry bombing his way into Yokohama harbour 1854.

Seems you’ve conveniently forgotten about the ruthless atrocities against Christians committed by the atheist governments of Russia, Germany and China.

There has never been an atheistic government in Germany. The atrocities in Germany you refer to were aimed at everybody, not esp. Christians. The number of Christians in China tend towards zero, so I doubt Mao et al. aimed especially at them. With Russia you’re right.
But I have also not forgotten the atrocities Christian governments against other Christians. Magdeburg eg, where Catholic forces slaughtered 20000 citizens. Since then German had a new word, *magdeburgisieren *== “to destroy a city completey and kill all citizens”.

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

Nazis ackowledged an outer rule, they had their own natural law. There is no such thing as “atheist ideology”. I’d say the exact opposite. A great deal of absolutism is required to build up a totalitarian state. The very nature of a totalitarian state is to impose absolute standards for each and everybody.

It is still necessary to insist on some key words we are using on this long and interesting thread.

Moral relativism means: there is no an objective source of morality (for example, natural law, humane nature). Atheist and totalitarian ideologies (atheism is a totalitarian ideology) always endorse moral relativism. This means: if there is no such objective source, morality depends on a subjective choice. This is valid for states or for individuals. Hitler (Stalin, etc, etc, etc) was a moral relativist because he did not recognize any supra moral criteria. That means to say: What is right and good is my own decision. Once you accepted this criterion, the gates of totalitarianism are open. This is valid for states and for individuals. So, if Hitler decided to exterminate large portions of mankind, that totalitarian measure was based on moral relativism. Why? Because he decided by himself that that was good. If a woman decides to kill her unborn child, that totalitarian measure is based on moral relativism. Why? Because she considers on her own criterion that that is a good action. That hideous criterion is, of course, supported by an atheistic legal system.

I suppose we agree that kill innocent people is a totalitarian policy, don’t we?

 

[barsapp]

john doran:

i would rather live in japan (an atheist state)

do you know that “in December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China’s capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war.”
do you know that one of the main distinguishing qualities of the Japanese is perversion? do you know that they were the main producers and consumers of child pornography (banned only in 1999)? (may be because of this the number or rapes is so low…)

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

But I have also not forgotten the atrocities Christian governments against other Christians. Magdeburg eg, where Catholic forces slaughtered 20000 citizens. Since then German had a new word, magdeburgisieren == “to destroy a city completey and kill all citizens”.

And have you forgotten that the atheist Hitler personally ordered the massacre of 6,000,000 Jews and countless ofther Catholics and Protestants.

Play the statistics game all you like … the facts of history are as incontrovertible on our side as they are on yours as a sign of what the world will be like without religion of any kind.

Show me a single Catholic, Jew, or Protestant in the 20th century century whose monstrosities do not pale next to those of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.

End Game.

 

[barsapp]

john doran:

i would rather live in japan (an atheist state) than in iran (a theocratic state). but i would rather live in the US than in japan, and in Canada rather than the US.

i would rather live in a theocratic catholic state with no abortion, no gays, no more “wrong is right and right is wrong”, no capitalistic spoliation, no destruction of nature, etc, etc
the true meaning of “God is dead” is “Man is dead”.

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

AnAtheist

And have you forgotten that the atheist Hitler personally ordered the massacre of 6,000,000 Jews and countless ofther Catholics and Protestants.

Oh, I forgot to mention that. And I forgot to mention the slaughter of millions of North and South American natives committed by good Catholics (South) and good white Americans (North) from the 17th to the 19th century. Or the complete extinction of the Tasmanians done by the Australians. Have we now listed all major human genocides in the last 400 years?

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

do you know that “in December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China’s capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war.”

Yes, I know. Did you know that 60000 Korean civilian prisoners did in the nuclear attack on Nagasaki? Have we now listed all major genocides

do you know that one of the main distinguishing qualities of the Japanese is perversion? do you know that they were the main producers and consumers of child pornography (banned only in 1999)? (may be because of this the number or rapes is so low…)

That I did not know. I was in Japan in 96 and in 98 for several weeks and haven’t seen any child pornography, but as I didn’t look for it I perhaps just missed it. You have a source (I can’t find one quickly)?
The biggest producer of “ordinary” pornography is the US, isn’t it?

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

Moral relativism means: there is no an objective source of morality (for example, natural law, humane nature).

And what about a natural morality devolopped in evolutionary processes? That would be “objective”, wouldn’t it.

Atheist and totalitarian ideologies (atheism is a totalitarian ideology) always endorse moral relativism.

Yes of course, and atheism is in fact a Satanic conspiration. Atheists meet in secret covets, worship Satan, and offer him babies.

I suppose we agree that kill innocent people is a totalitarian policy, don’t we?

No, totalitarian policy is that the justice system is not independend from the state power, thus the way to figure out who is guilty is somewhat arbitrary and therefore a lot innocent people get sentenced. If a death sentence is an indication of a totalitarian system, let’s see, what countries still have death penalties?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

Oh, I forgot to mention that. And I forgot to mention the slaughter of millions of North and South American natives committed by good Catholics (South) and good white Americans (North) from the 17th to the 19th century. Or the complete extinction of the Tasmanians done by the Australians. Have we now listed all major human genocides in the last 400 years?
*__________________
*

No. Beside Hitler, we forgot to mention Stalin and Mao. Collectively they managed to slaughter scores of millions of their own people in the short term of twenty years.

Now lets get back to the prison situation … which you haven’t commented on yet. The vast majority of prisoners in most prisons do not and have not attended church or chapel in many years.

And lets look at pornography rings, and drug merchants, and organized crime. Do you think these people in their hearts are with God or without God?

But these statistics really become tiresome after a while.

The point is that common sense tells us this: without God men will the more easily persuade themselves of any mischief they like because they believe their is no one watching and there are no consequences. The natural law, which exists in our hearts, is not sufficient by itself to overcome the lies we (Christians included) tell ourselves. Adam and Eve found that out from the start, and we have all been proving it over and over ever since. We need help. God offers himself daily to help us from the Cross.

We can delude ourselves some more and think the world will get along just fine without Christ. It is the everlasting con game of Satan cleverly played out in the 20th century. But the Nazis are more or less gone. The Communists are more or less gone. Evil always defeats itself in the end.

The Catholic Church has been crippled by the onslaught of Satan in our times.

But the staying power of the Man who died on a cross is everlasting.

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

That I did not know. I was in Japan in 96 and in 98 for several weeks and haven’t seen any child pornography, but as I didn’t look for it I perhaps just missed it. You have a source (I can’t find one quickly)?
The biggest producer of “ordinary” pornography is the US, isn’t it?

http://www.atimes.com/japan-econ/BF16Dh01.html

“TOKYO - June, 16, 2000- Activists working to protect children from sexual crimes want the Japanese government to take swifter measures to curb rampant child pornography on the Internet in Japan, most of it produced domestically.
‘‘Japan is the largest market for child pornography. Most of the arrests have been for posting the stuff on the net, a situation that is very bad,’’ says Mayumi Moriyama, a member of the Diet and a leading advocate in the drive against the distribution of lewd materials on the World Wide Web. Activists say 80 percent of the world’s child pornography disseminated over the Internet is produced in Japan.
It was only in November 1999 that the Japanese government finally caved in to years of grassroots pressure and passed a law that prohibits sex with minors, or those 17 years of age or younger. The law also bans the sale, production and distribution of child pornography, a major step in the fight to clamp down on the crime.
It comes as no surprise that crime against women and children is on the rise, police say. In 1999, there were 1,857 women who were victims of rape, up 14.7 percent from the previous year. In the case of children, figures indicate that indecent assault cases on children rose to 1,302 in 1999, representing a climb of 26.5 percent in five years. Forty-seven percent reported that their perpetrators were men they were acquainted with such as neighbors and relatives.”

http://tokyoclassified.com/lifeinjapanarchive249/242/lifeinjapaninc.htm

**“What do you dislike most about Japan?
Very often, everything looks really nice and smooth, but the other side is that many issues are not talked about or dealt with. There’s AIDS, poverty, sex exploitation. Japan seems to put them aside like they don’t exist. I don’t like the status of women in this country or that 70 percent of child pornography produced in the world is done in Tokyo. I don’t like that prostitution is accepted.
Japan is not a Christian society; therefore, they don’t share some of the same beliefs that Christians value. How do you deal with this issue?
**There are some wonderful, really strong values that I greatly appreciate in this culture. But I don’t accept the fact that a married man can have a mistress. I see a lot of men in Roppongi drinking and partying late at night, and you know they have families at home. I don’t see that as a Christian value, but as a human value. You don’t need to be a Christian to believe in fidelity, the importance of family, trust, and faithfulness.”

And many more articles (just search “child pornography in Japan”).

These are your lovely Buddhists…. How an appalling reality: man without Christ!

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

Yes of course, and atheism is in fact a Satanic conspiration.

Well, Satan is a liar and the father of lies (John 8, 44), so I suppose you are right. Being an ideology deeply rooted in falseness (“There is no God”, “I’m the Law”) we could consider atheism as a devilish sign of modern times. The 20th century was the bloodiest century in human history. It was also the century of the triumph of atheism. For you it’s only a coincidence. For me (and for philosophy, political science and history) there is a recognizable connection between them.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

“It is no disgrace to Christianity, it is no disgrace to any great religion, that its counsels of perfection have not made every single person perfect. If after centuries a disparity is still found between its ideals and its followers, it only means that the religion still maintains the ideal, and the followers still need it.” G.K. Chesterton

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

Atheists meet in secret covets, worship Satan, and offer him babies.No, totalitarian policy is that the justice system is not independend from the state power, thus the way to figure out who is guilty is somewhat arbitrary and therefore a lot innocent people get sentenced. If a death sentence is an indication of a totalitarian system, let’s see, what countries still have death penalties?

It seems that you still do not understand the nature of totalitarianism. When I say that “kill innocent people is a totalitarian policy” I do not refer specifically to any particular power of the statal organization (executive, legislative or judicial branches).

But it sounds interesting your quotation: ”the way to figure out who is guilty is somewhat arbitrary and therefore a lot innocent people get sentenced”. It is precisely when state and individual do not follow an objective rule of behavior that decision becomes arbitrary and unjust. If state and individual decide to act based on their own preferences and do not fit any superior criterion, that would be a totalitarian policy.

“If a death sentence is an indication of a totalitarian system, let’s see, what countries still have death penalties?” Abortion and euthanasia are clear examples of legal death sentence. The social acceptance of abortion and euthanasia imply the total wreckage of moral sense, the victory of the atheistic and totalitarian ideology, and the dissolution of society.

… and you are right, you are painfully right, you “worship Satan, and offer him babies.”

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

In 1999, there were 1,857 women who were victims of rape,

That matches nicely the numbers I found. Compared to 95,800 reported rapes per year in God’s Own Country, well yes now I see the effects of this perverted godless society. How could I be so blind…

There’s AIDS, poverty, sex exploitation.

Wow, must be the only country with those problems.

But I don’t accept the fact that a married man can have a mistress.

Mormons and Muslims can have four wives, what’s the problem?

More fun from the scientists: timesonline.co.uk/article/0,2-1798944,00.html
The Times:

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

I suppose, only the atheists in your country are guilty of those perversions.

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

But it sounds interesting your quotation: ”the way to figure out who is guilty is somewhat arbitrary and therefore a lot innocent people get sentenced”. It is precisely when state and individual do not follow an objective rule of behavior that decision becomes arbitrary and unjust. If state and individual decide to act based on their own preferences and do not fit any superior criterion, that would be a totalitarian policy.
I see what you mean.

“If a death sentence is an indication of a totalitarian system, let’s see, what countries still have death penalties?” Abortion and euthanasia are clear examples of legal death sentence.
No argument from me.

The social acceptance of abortion and euthanasia imply the total wreckage of moral sense, the victory of the atheistic and totalitarian ideology, and the dissolution of society.

… and you are right, you are painfully right, you “worship Satan, and offer him babies.”

So you now imply that atheists are all pro-abortionists or what?
Read this: godlessprolifers.org/home.html

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

I suppose, only the atheists in your country are guilty of those perversions.

You are very selective in your answers, so I assume that child pornography is ok for you.

Get me clear one more time: I’m not defending here any country, policy or political regime. As I stated before: “i would rather live in a theocratic catholic state with no abortion, no gays, no more “wrong is right and right is wrong”, no capitalistic spoliation, no destruction of nature, etc, etc.” the true meaning of “God is dead” is “Man is dead”. And “We are witnessing a self destruction process.”