Morality Without Religion?

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

So you now imply that atheists are all pro-abortionists or what? Read this: godlessprolifers.org/home.html

Interesting: “All too often, I fear that I’m the only nonreligious person who opposes the genocide of abortion used as a birth control substitute.”

This is what I posted on another thread: “Abortion is an anthropological issue, not a religious one. …the basis to oppose abortion are merely anthropological (what, when, from when human life must be protected). Identify opposition to abortion with Catholicism is a work of the devil. …it has to be absolute clear that opposition to abortion is not a religious belief. We defend life from the very beginning to the very end.”

Be honest: do you really think that most of abortionists are devout Catholics? Do you really think that most of pro choice are not atheists?

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

You are very selective in your answers, so I assume that child pornography is ok for you.

You assume a lot of things. Perhaps I should assume, witch burning is ok for you.

You should let go your prejudices. “Right is wrong and wrong is right” has nothing to do with atheism, nor has the total(itarian) rejection of all morals.

Just because someone sets up a morality without referring to your god, does not automatically mean
a) it does not work
b) is wrong.

You have a very simple dualistic worldview, no doubts, no scepticism, no shades of gray. All is perfectly divided into black/white, good/bad, Christian/all others (aka perverts). With that you are a perfect victim for a totalitarian leader once he has convinced you of standing on your side.

As I stated before: “i would rather live in a theocratic catholic state with no abortion, no gays, no more “wrong is right and right is wrong”, no capitalistic spoliation, no destruction of nature, etc, etc.

Then Nazi Germany must have been paradise for you. There was a death penalty for gays, abortion was forbidden, everyone knew what was right and wrong, the capital was under socialist control, nature was revered, those who had killed the Lord (capitalistic exploiters btw) were punished, …

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

Be honest: do you really think that most of abortionists are devout Catholics?

No. Certainly not most, and those who are, are not devout I suppose.

Do you really think that most of pro choice are not atheists?

I know that pro abortionists come from every background. Many Christians among them. But I grant you that, in my country those are mostly protestants.

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

Perhaps I should assume, witch burning is ok for you.
You should let go your prejudices.
Then Nazi Germany must have been paradise for you.

Witch burning was mostly a protestant practice carried out….four, three centuries ago? Child pornography and pervert Buddhists japs are matters of these dismal days.

Prejudices? Do you think I’m posting personal opinions? The following belongs to a non catholic website allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm

“There are two basic forms of atheism: “strong” atheism and “weak” atheism. Strong atheism is the doctrine that there is no God or gods. Weak atheism is the disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods. Weak atheism is often confused with agnosticism, the lack of belief or disbelief in God or gods, and skepticism, the doctrine that the absolute knowledge of God’s existence is unobtainable by mere man. Many agnostics and skeptics are “practical atheists” in that they actively pursue an atheistic lifestyle. The exclusion of God necessitates moral relativism. Atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) declared, and philosophers generally agree, without God there is no absolute truth and thus no universal moral standard of conduct. Humanist John Dewey (1859-1952), co-author and signer of the Humanist Manifesto I (1933), declared, “There is no God and there is no soul. Hence, there are no needs for the props of traditional religion. With dogma and creed excluded, then immutable truth is also dead and buried. There is no room for fixed, natural law or moral absolutes.””

If you do not see the link between atheism, moral relativism, totalitarianism and genocide… man… start reading Democritus, Protagoras, Hobbes, Spinoza, Marx, Nietzche, Freud, etc. etc….

Nazi Germany was solemnly condemned by Pious XI’s “Mit Brennender Sorge”. If you think that Nazi Germany must have been a paradise for me, I’m sure you did not read it.

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

I know that pro abortionists come from every background. Many Christians among them. But I grant you that, in my country those are mostly protestants.

Protestantism is only a stop on the way to atheism.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

That matches nicely the numbers I found. Compared to 95,800 reported rapes per year in God’s Own Country, well yes now I see the effects of this perverted godless society. How could I be so blind…

Are you implying that most of these rapes were committed by godly people?

Again, go into the prisons. Find out if most of the rapists go to chapel. You have evaded this question long enough. Everyone in prison ministry is working very hard to get the ungodly people to chapel in the hope that when and if they ever get out of prison, they will carry with them a reformed attitude rather than a resolve to get back behind bars with more ungodly behavior…

So what moral glue do you offer to repair these broken men?

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

Prejudices? Do you think I’m posting personal opinions? The following belongs to a non catholic website allaboutphilosophy.org/atheism.htm

From the “About Us” on that site:

Our Faith Statement

Although our ministry style often caters to wary skeptics, our group’s foundation is based on solid, fundamental Christian doctrine.

Therefore, We Believe

The Bible is the only inspired Word of God – a supernaturally integrated set of 66 books, written by 40 authors, over nearly 2,000 years.
…]
Contact Information:
All About GOD Ministries, Inc.

I am sure that site knows everything about non-Christian philosophies.

The exclusion of God necessitates moral relativism. Atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) declared, and philosophers generally agree, without God there is no absolute truth and thus no universal moral standard of conduct.

And does that necessarily lead to immorality. A different morality is not necessarily worse than that of your god. Do you do something good because it is good or because God said it is good? Eutryphro’s dilemma, a theist can’t escape it.
The atheist at least thinks about what might be right and wrong, and aknowledges the fact that some moral principles are due to the environment. Want an example: When the Bounty reached the Pitcairn islands, the seamen were encouraged to copulate with a variety of local women. I suppose that seems VERY immoral to you, but a small population on a remote island would simply die out, if they’d not freshen their gene pool from time to time. There it was immoral not to “fornicate” (how you would call it), because that meant to doom the society.

If you think that Nazi Germany must have been a paradise for me, I’m sure you did not read it.

No I didn’t. But I read your posts, and much of what you want for your theocratic state paradise was realised in Nazi Germany.
Let’s take your words “no gays”. How do you ensure that? Kill all gays, lock them away, mark them for the public to see what perverts they are (I recommend pink triangles for those marks, Nazi concentration camp rules could be reused then)?
Is any of those options morally ok?

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

AnAtheist
Are you implying that most of these rapes were committed by godly people?

I have no idea. What I am implying is, that a mostly godfearing society believing in an absolute truth/morality obviously not automatically ensures that this morality is followed by the society. And therefore, a different morality in a society filled with non-believers or moral relativists does not lead automatically to utter chaos.

Again, go into the prisons. Find out if most of the rapists go to chapel. You have evaded this question long enough.

Frankly I don’t care if a criminal goes to chapel, goes to his knees 5 times a day, dances around a tree or does nothing of that sort. I don’t deny that religions are very effictive to control people with the fear of death and judgement, *but *that only works on believers. If I’d threaten you with the wrath of Thor, you are not impressed. In a society full of unbelievers you have to find a different basis of morality than “god X said so”, otherwise it would not work.

Everyone in prison ministry is working very hard to get the ungodly people to chapel …

Tell me, are they ungodly because they don’t go to chapel, don’t believe in some kind of god, or because they are criminals?
If you limit godly people to good people, then of course you are right by definition.

 

[barsapp]

(I recommend pink triangles for those marks, Nazi concentration camp rules could be reused then)?

very funny!

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

A different morality is not necessarily worse than that of your god.The atheist at least thinks about what might be right and wrong. I read your posts, and much of what you want for your theocratic state paradise was realised in Nazi Germany.
Let’s take your words “no gays”. How do you ensure that? Kill all gays, lock them away, mark them for the public to see what perverts they are (I recommend pink triangles for those marks, Nazi concentration camp rules could be reused then)? Is any of those options morally ok?

Pious XI’s “Mit Brennender Sorge” (1937) was a powerful, brave and prophetic censure of national socialism. At this point of the debate, you should know that the atheist and materialistic basis of national socialism has nothing to do with catholic doctrine.

With regard to my words “no gays”, let’s consider two situations: one: cure them; two: applaud the gay pride parade, gay marriage and gay child adoption. Which of them do you think fits more accurately “natural law” or “common sense” (if you want a softer formula)? What about if the Bounty seamen would have been gays?

And you are still avoiding the main point here: the historical fact of the link between atheism, moral relativism, totalitarianism and genocide.

“And does that necessarily lead to immorality. A different morality is not necessarily worse than that of your god.” Tell me if you are still fond of your lovely Buddhist japs.

Do you live in Mars? Have you seen what happens all around us? Do you know that legalized abortion has meant so far ONE AND A HALF BILLION of unborn human beings mass murdered? Morality without God is not only an illusion; it is also the way to catastrophe.

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

At this point of the debate, you should know that the atheist and materialistic basis of national socialism has nothing to do with catholic doctrine.
We are not debating that point, we are contradicting each other. National Socialism is neither atheistic nor materialistic, it is full of mysticism.

With regard to my words “no gays”, let’s consider two situations: one: cure them; two: applaud the gay pride parade, gay marriage and gay child adoption.

I consider a third: It cannot be cured, so I leave them alone, and I expect them to leave me alone.

And you are still avoiding the main point here: the historical fact of the link between atheism, moral relativism, totalitarianism and genocide.

I am not avoiding it, I outright declare that is utter nonsense.

“And does that necessarily lead to immorality. A different morality is not necessarily worse than that of your god.” Tell me if you are still fond of your lovely Buddhist japs.

The chance of being abused, killed or robbed is much smaller in Japan than in the USA. Do I really have to mention child molesting priests? Forgot that? Read Matthew 7:5 btw.
The Buddhist japs I personally know are all decent, loving and caring people, and I rather spend my time with them than with any religious fanatic.

Do you know that legalized abortion has meant so far ONE AND A HALF BILLION of unborn human beings mass murdered? Morality without God is not only an illusion; it is also the way to catastrophe.

Yes, I know that, but that happens with and without your god’s morality. And believe it or not, I am against that mass murder too, but I doubt that agreement would fit into your norrow-minded world view. I stopped my activism in this organisation cdl-online.de because of people like you, who were intellectually not able to grasp the secular reasons against abortions. I had to justify my position more to them than to the pro choicers, and that was VERY troublesome.

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

National Socialism is neither atheistic nor materialistic, it is full of mysticism.I am not avoiding it, I outright declare that is utter nonsense. The chance of being abused, killed or robbed is much smaller in Japan than in the USA. Do I really have to mention child molesting priests? Forgot that? I stopped my activism in this organisation cdl-online.de because of people like you, who were intellectually not able to grasp the secular reasons against abortions.

You are not reading the posts here properly.

I said: “Abortion is an anthropological issue, not a religious one. …the basis to oppose abortion are merely anthropological (what, when, from when human life must be protected). Identify opposition to abortion with Catholicism is a work of the devil. …it has to be absolute clear that opposition to abortion is not a religious belief.”

And you answered me: “people like you, who were intellectually not able to grasp the secular reasons against abortions.”

I really do not understand…. I’m saying that we have to oppose abortion based on anthropological (secular, in your words) basis. You do not have to be a religious people to condemn and fight against abortion. That is clear. It is also clear that the pro choice (pro death) movements hold mainly atheistic and materialistic (thus they endorse moral relativism, evolutionism, etc, etc) views. You can say: “I meet a catholic guy who supports abortion”. This has nothing to do with catholic doctrine. In fact that kind of “catholics” are automatically excommunicated, so they are no more catholics. If they want to still call themselves catholics, it is not the Church problem.

If the historical fact of the link between atheism, moral relativism, totalitarianism and genocide (deeply and abundant studied by the philosophy, political science, sociology, etc, etc) is for you “utter nonsense”, I can better now understand how many people could be deceived and misguided. It is easy to mislead an ignorant people. Who is the narrow minded here? Denying history means open minded?

“The chance of being abused, killed or robbed is much smaller in Japan than in the USA. Do I really have to mention child molesting priests? Forgot that?” I do not see the point here: Am I defending any particular country? What about child molesting priests? For me they can go to hell right now! This is one of the most loathsome and aberrant sin (and crime) I could imagine. Yes, Matthew 18:6, right now.

“National Socialism is neither atheistic nor materialistic, it is full of mysticism.” So what? I still do not find that “much of what you want for your theocratic state paradise was realised in Nazi Germany”. Nazi policy against abortion only applies to Arian women. It was merely one more measure in line with nazi eugenics and scientific racism (little mysticism here). Remember Darwin? Another atheistic, materialistic “wise man”? Come on, man! Do you want me to believe that Nazi policy against abortion has something to do with Catholic doctrine? Same morals? Are you pulling my leg? Stop kidding.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AnAtheist

We are not debating that point, we are contradicting each other. National Socialism is neither atheistic nor materialistic, it is full of mysticism.

See posts # 187 and 188 for graphic evidence that Hitler followed the mysticism(?) of Nietzsche, who was an an avowed atheist of the “God is dead” variety…

Please rebut this evidence by pointing to a specific religion or god that Hitler worshipped when he was Dictator. Please show him defending or embracing the Jewish mystics, the Catholic mystics, and the Protestant mystics. He didn’t. You can’t.

And men, women, and children of every religion were slaughtered by the millions at his order and the orders of his party.

That’s mysticism?

Whew!

 

[barsapp]

AnAtheist:

National Socialism is neither atheistic nor materialistic, it is full of mysticism.

if you want to call “mysticism” some kind of cheap neo paganism…
anyway, can you tell us where your morality without God paradise is located?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

anyway, can you tell us where your morality without God paradise is located?

Perhaps it would have been in Soviet Russia if anywhere … but no more!

AnAthiest

Yes we’re still waiting to here how you develop moral teachings for the young without religion … teachings strong enough to be a social glue … when atheism by its very nature is individualistic, egoistic, and essentially rebels against any kind of binding authority … especially God’s. How do you persuade all children and citizens to obey the law when at the same time you are teaching them that they are a law unto themselves rather than unto God?

Still a resounding silence.

Please don’t say again that all children and all adults have to understand and submit to Immanual Kant. How is that any less authoritarian than submitting to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and God?

 

[barsapp]

I can understand the Buddhist approach. It’s ok with Buddha. He realized the vanity of life. That’s ok. He lived a life of sacrifice and renunciation. He was an Atheist and he did not intend to establish any religion. What happened after his death is another story. But it is not possible to say that his morality spread out, neither was it adopted massively.

We are not discussing personal situations. We are describing the present state of the world. And how we arrived to this dark age of massacre. Morality without truth? Impossible. Present days: No God, no truth, no goodness. It is a gloomy and grim world without God. Luke 22, 53: “this is your hour, the time for the power of darkness”.

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

Please rebut this evidence by pointing to a specific religion or god that Hitler worshipped when he was Dictator. Please show him defending or embracing the Jewish mystics, the Catholic mystics, and the Protestant mystics. He didn’t. You can’t.

Then show, when and where Hitler said, there is no God, no Creator. Show, when and where he defended atheism. You can’t.

Your problem is, that you don’t differentiate. You lump together anything, that does comply with your view of things.
I am tired of this fruitless “what did Hitler believe?” debate.

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

Yes we’re still waiting to here how you develop moral teachings for the young without religion … teachings strong enough to be a social glue …

Ok, let’s assume for a minute, that only God can produce morality and only religion is a “strong enough glue” to ensure this morality.

Now, if the majority does not believe in God or a particular religion in the first place, what is your practical approach? Force everybody to believe in God, force everybody to attend mass, kill every unbeliever? That has been practiced for centuries, and didn’t work that well. In my view it isn’t very moral either.

A working morality can have a very simple basis: Don’t harm others. Period. (Well, that is the Categorical Imperitive, in a sense.) It needs no god whatsoever and it has a very egoistic reason behind it, as I (and everybody else) don’t want to be harmed.
There are people who cannot grasp a simple concept like that, and other means must be take to protect the society from those unsocial individuals, that can be religion, a just law system, a philosophy.

You say, there hasn’t been an atheist paradise state yet. Where have the Christian paradise states been then? The secular Europe of today is a far better place and time to live in than in the past, when Christianity was in charge.

And when I look at mordern theocratic nations with adamant morals, whoa, they are good in producing suicide bombers.

 

[AnAtheist]

barsapp:

I really do not understand…. I’m saying that we have to oppose abortion based on anthropological (secular, in your words) basis.

No, but to face the possibility that other people reach the same conclusion by other means. Not beleiving in an absolute truth does not auotmatically lead to abortion or anarchy or communism.

You do not have to be a religious people to condemn and fight against abortion. That is clear.

Good. So you accept, that this moral fight can be picked up without absolute truth and morality?

Remember Darwin? Another atheistic, materialistic “wise man”?

Don’t confuse Darwin’s evolution theory with social Darwinism. The latter was never intended by Darwin. Social Darwinism is like applying the 10 commandments to figure out how Roulette is played.

Come on, man! Do you want me to believe that Nazi policy against abortion has something to do with Catholic doctrine? Same morals? Are you pulling my leg? Stop kidding.

See my first sentence in this post.

 

[AnAtheist]

Gilbert Keith:

That’s mysticism?

Whew!

Astrology, pendulum practicies, Thule society, hollow earth theories, rune mysticism, … were all parts of the weird mindset of a Nazi. Call that mysticism, sectarian behaviour, superstition, I don’t care, but that weirdo stuff has nothing to do with materialism nor atheism.