More about Once Saved Always Saved..

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Hi, again all
Read about the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. You probably have already noticed that both believed, but did you also notice that only one worked? What was the final end of those who did no works? See verses 45-46. Since the goats believed, why then were they not saved also?

Peace, One Now1
you are doing one of these numbers :banghead: :ouch:
if you think that scrpture is going to make certain peple here change their views… I have tried that one and many others (although i do believe that is one of the best ones against OSAS and sola sciprutral…).

Hey - if the Word of God doesn’t work…

What will???
 
you are doing one of these numbers :banghead: :ouch:
if you think that scrpture is going to make certain peple here change their views… I have tried that one and many others (although i do believe that is one of the best ones against OSAS and sola sciprutral…).

Hey - if the Word of God doesn’t work…

What will???
Quote= OneNow1, An open mind, to search diligently for the truth. At the catholic showroom, not some other gospel where truth has been skewed for 500yrs.

Peace OneNow1 :banghead: :ouch:
 
Quote= OneNow1, An open mind, to search diligently for the truth. At the catholic showroom, not some other gospel where truth has been skewed for 500yrs.

Peace OneNow1 :banghead: :ouch:
Huh? What???:confused:
 
this is virtually the only part of your post i appreciated…

didn’t even read most of it because i have read enough of your posts…

you don’t answer certain questions… you just keep bringing up barely related issues and non-related issues… and intellectualizing ad nauseum…

i feel i am talking to a wall…

Therefore, i see no point in continuing on… Waste o’time…
I answer every question – just not with the answers you want to hear!
 
the thought occurs to me that it is even worse to sin AFTER one has accepted Christ than it is before… The consequences are more serious… Therefore, there is all the more need for purging (here and/or later in Purgatory) than ever… meaning: NO OSAS…

Comments?? What is your experience with this??
**1) What do you mean by “accepted Christ” ?? Are we not the ones who are made “accepted in the beloved” - (Ephesians 1:6) ??
  1. Was not Christ’s sacrifice “accepted” by God, on the behalf of his people - in order to put away our sins? So what sins are you talking about? Do beleivers still have un-atoned for sins? Does God still have un-propitiated wrath toward his people? I thought the apostle John said “The blood of Jesus cleanseth us from ALL sin” - (1 John 1:7) ?? And I also thought that the author of Hebrews said “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for ALL time” - (Hebrews 10:10) ?? :hmmm: **
 
again I do not deny human free will nor do I advocate fatalism. You’re painting a false dichotomy… Let’s redact the words of Paul at Romans 10:14; however, when Paul was speaking of the gentiles he was referring to believers?
I’m not “painting a false dichotomy.” Rather, you’re contradicting yourself. You deny that human free will has a part to play in our predestination to glory by rejecting the notion that free human cooperation is necessary for our salvation. That’s understandable from your perspective, since you believe that the privileged elect, because of their total depravity, which has been masked by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to their account, have been given ‘irresisitible’ effacacious grace to ensure their election. Meanwhile the unfortunate souls who have been deprived of this essential grace cannot justly be held morally accountable for their damnation. There is no free will where moral accountability is absent.

Above in this thread you objected that you don’t espouse the doctrine of Double Predestination, yet at the same time you speak of this irresistible efficacious grace that’s reserved for a chosen group from all eternity. You confuse us by claiming in one breath that man has no free will, but at the same time has no capacity to cooperate with God’s grace for his salvation. Since grace and salvation has not been offered to all mankind, it necessarily follows that free will has no part to play in our salvation. We have no choice in the matter of being saved or damned for all time.

Your interpretation of Paul’s letter to the Romans confirms what you actually conclude, although you deny it: that man has no free will in his salvation. You deny that Paul is teaching us that the inner law (of the New Covenant) is written in the hearts of all Gentiles besides the Jews. But he was not speaking of only those who had already heard the Gospel orally proclaimed by the apostles. He does not have the “elect” in mind. Every human being is aware of this law that is inscribed in our hearts. Knowledge of this law is not necessarily acquired by literally hearing the proclamation of the Gospel by Christ’s appointed ministers. The idea of being saved through the direct acquisition of explicit divine revelation and knowledge is a Gnostic belief.

You speak of a desire in us to be saved, effected by grace. This desire can only be genuine if it involves free cooperation with God’s grace on our part. And I’m not misconstruing anything. If we knew with certainty that we are counted among the elect, then there would be no need for the Christian virtue of hope. Ironically, how can we be sure of our election in this life if there is a chance of falling from God’s grace, which you admit? Perhaps the best we can do is hope that we will be counted among the elect on the Day of Judgment.

Foreknowledge is not a form of fatalism. Fatalism denies any secondary human causality that is involved in an outcome or event. I can foresee, or in my finite capacity imagine, that a crippled senior citizen will accept my seat that I offer him on a crowded bus. But he does not necessarily have to accept the offer. He will take my seat only if he wishes to without any coercion on my part. If you think that God imposes his will on us in order to be saved, then admit you subscribe to the false doctrine of Double Predestination.

I agree that we are drawn by God’s grace, but not effectively manufactured by it. Grace is not a substance, but a quality. It is something we must first desire in our hearts in order for it to be effective. The Roman convert Cornelius is a good example of cooperating with God’s grace, that was offered him before he was baptized. God answered his righteous prayer to an unknown God. And through that grace he eventually accepted the Word of God as proclaimed by the apostles. He did not acquire faith at the moment he was baptized. He had it all along by the grace of God. His Baptism of Desire came to fruition with his formal baptism prompted by his implicit faith in an unknown God which he had already possessed in God’s grace.

‘Actual’ grace is an internal supernatural help for every human being, including those who have not yet heard the Gospel proclaimed or been formally baptized, which God transmits to the human soul. This grace enlightens us and helps us understand what ought to be done or avoided in our actions, inclining us to do good and avoid evil. In this sense actual grace can be called ‘exciting’ grace and ‘preventing’ grace. It is called exciting grace because it excites us to do good and avoid evil; it is called preventive grace because it is entirely the work of God in our souls, and precedes every voluntary act of our own.

Human nature left to itself apart from God’s grace is prone towards what is contrary to the will of God. Still we are not totally depraved, or else we could not freely respond to the inspiration of God’s grace that enables us to see and understand what is truly good and pleasing to God and best for us - even if we don’t believe in God. Every human being simply feels an inspiration towards goodness or holiness without anything done on their own to experience it. We have no power to hinder this inspiration, which comes to us through the grace of God, and is not a part of our human nature, but we are free to resist and suppress it by our own volition, choosing not to comply with it.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If ‘any’ man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."
Revelation 3, 20

PAX :cool:
 
GF:

I’ll let God and His word do the talking:

*“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, …]” (Ephesians 1:3-5, NASB)

“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” (Romans 8:28-30, NASB)

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.” (Ephesians 2:4-9, NASB)

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, …]" (2 Titus 1:9, NASB)

Your eyes have seen my unformed substance;

And in Your book were all written
The days that were ordained for me,
When as yet there was not one of them. (Psalm 139:16, NASB)

“So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. [verse 17 omitted] So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.” (Romans 9:16-18, NASB)

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48)

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (John 6:37)

The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. (John 10:3)

but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. (John 10:26)

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ,** the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. (Matthew 16:15-17)***
 
In one passage in the bible it says that the person who sins is of the devil…

I knew it… i just knew it…

I knew we were all possessed! :whacky:
 
Just a clarification. Catholic predestination is not merely election based on foreseen faith. That is Arminianism and is not taught by the Catholic Church. 🙂

God Bless,
Michael
I am not saying that God specifically chooses those whom he will save by any foreseen merit of theirs. Here at this point Arminius had erred. We are saved by grace. Our Blessed Mother was preserved free from the stain of original sin by sanctifying grace in view of the foreseen merits of her divine Son. St. Paul asks,* What have we that we have not received from God*? Our conversion is prompted through the actual grace (of conversion) of the Holy Spirit. But we have the freedom to resist this grace. That is why we must constantly pray to our heavenly Father for the unmerited grace of final perseverance: the grace of the elect. Give us this day our daily bread. We do merit for ourselves the eternal reward by cooperating with the actual graces we receive by the Holy Spirit: Grace is the principle of merit, so we cannot merit it for ourselves. Christ has merited grace for us by his death on the cross. Grace does not originate from ourselves. The elect are generally those whom God forsees have freely met his conditions with the help of his grace.
p.s. I just noticed this reply today. :rolleyes:

PAX :heaven:
 
The elect are generally those whom God forsees have freely met his conditions with the help of his grace.
p.s. I just noticed this reply today. :rolleyes:

PAX :heaven:
But this is precisely what Arminianism teaches. In Arminianism, predestination is God’s election of those he foresaw would respond to His grave. That is not Catholic teaching. We have to be careful not to identify predestination with divine foreknowledge. They are related, but distinct. In Thomism, which is a theologically acceptable option and was the predominant view of predestination prior to the Reformation, God’s electon is logically PRIOR to His foreknowledge of man’s response to His grace. In other words, His election is unconditional, not based on foreknowledge. That is the principle of predilection. Not even in Molinism is predestinaton identified with divine foreknowledge. Divine foreknowledge -middle Knowledge (scientia media), not Knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) - is involved in the selection of those circumstances in which the elect will freely and infallibly respond to His grace and freely persevere. But ultimately it is God who choses who He will place in those circumstances in which they will freely cooperate with His graces and will infallibly enter eternal glory.

God Bless,
Michael
 
But this is precisely what Arminianism teaches. In Arminianism, predestination is God’s election of those he foresaw would respond to His grave. That is not Catholic teaching. We have to be careful not to identify predestination with divine foreknowledge. They are related, but distinct. In Thomism, which is a theologically acceptable option and was the predominant view of predestination prior to the Reformation, God’s electon is logically PRIOR to His foreknowledge of man’s response to His grace. In other words, His election is unconditional, not based on foreknowledge. That is the principle of predilection. Not even in Molinism is predestinaton identified with divine foreknowledge. Divine foreknowledge -middle Knowledge (scientia media), not Knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) - is involved in the selection of those circumstances in which the elect will freely and infallibly respond to His grace and freely persevere. But ultimately it is God who choses who He will place in those circumstances in which they will freely cooperate with His graces and will infallibly enter eternal glory.

God Bless,
Michael
I am not saying that God’s election depends on his foreknowledge. It’s not like God foresees John Doe cooperating with his grace and thereby determines at that point he will be saved because of what God foresees as infallible and irrevocable. But since God foresees all things, naturally he still knows who will be saved and who will not be. What I mean above in this thread is that God has foreknown what type of person in general deserves to be saved and will be. The elect are the ones who freely respond to God’s grace and persevere in faith to the end. Grace and perseverence are conditions we have to meet in order to be saved. God’s grace is given to all men, since, in the words of St.Paul, He desires that everyone be saved, not only a specially selected few. Perhaps I’m not expressing myself clearly enough, but I agree with what you wrote.

Pax Christu :heaven:
 
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