More big problems for Church

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

I do not think attempted celibacy leads to pedophilia or to homosexuality.

OK, but I read somewhere that men who are not attracted to women may find the celibate life to their liking.

I tried to acknowledge this in my post, because I think this is a path chosen by those committed to their faith and who find themselves not attracted to woman and thus told by society that they simply must not marry the opposite sex.

It is clear that in 2018 and for many years before this our sexualize culture and/or the inherent difficulties of cultivating an opposite sex relationship while having same sex attraction, has resulted in VERY few successful relationships of this sort (though I expect the successful ones are largely silent as this is very personal). Whether it is biology or the degenerate sexualized culture in which ALL of us swim that leads to failures doesn’t change the prevalence of failure. As such, I, as a committed Christian, believe that celibacy is preferable to participating in sex outside of divinely sanctioned marriage. And I certainly believe celibacy is preferable to pedophilia.

IMO the above is a further reason for priestly celibacy. As I said, proper priestly/religious formation and connection with God IMO will aid in abstaining from non-marital sex far better than marrying someone.

Charity, TOm

 

[Pup7]

TOmNossor:

I do not think attempted celibacy leads to pedophilia or to homosexuality.

OK, but I read somewhere that men who are not attracted to women may find the celibate life to their liking.

Still doesn’t say that it makes them homosexual because they choose celibacy. Or that they will attack children if they’re not able to have sex with adults.

People attracted to adults will turn to adults for intimacy, not children.

 

[Gorgias]

OK, but I read somewhere that men who are not attracted to women may find the celibate life to their liking.

Fair enough. I’m not sure I’d agree, but it’s a reasonable claim.

However, “celibate” simply means “unmarried”. One does not have to be a Catholic priest in order to live his life without marriage, does he? One does not face cultural stigma by living out his life as a bachelor, does he?

So, if celibacy is to blame, then we’d assume that celibate men in all walks of life – and not just celibate Catholic priests – have a higher rate of sexual abuse of children. But, that’s not what we find. Therefore, your claim of “celibate priest → child molester” doesn’t hold up.

 

[AlNg]

IMO the above is a further reason for priestly celibacy.

Not clear to me. For example, according to an article from the Church Militant site of Voris, as many as 50% of all priests and bishops are homosexual.

https://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/half-of-priests-and-bishops-are-gay

Author and sociologist James G. Wolfe estimated that 48.5% of priests were homosexual. James G. Wolf, “Gay Priests,” Harper and Row, 1989, Pages 59-60.
But according to what I read, anywhere from 1% to 2% of American men are homosexual.
Add that to the reports by Dr. Donohue that the Catholic Abuse Scandal Rooted in Homosexuality.

Bill Donohue, Catholic League: Abuse Scandal Rooted in Homosexuality, not Pedophilia - U.S. News - News - Catholic Online

Donohue defended his view of the scandal as a 'homosexual crisis' While taking pains to point out that 'most gay priests are not molesters,' and that 'being a homosexual' does not 'make one a ...

www.catholic.org

I see it as a possibility that a homosexual may find the all male environment of the priesthood to be attractive.
I think it is better to have married priests, or at least allow this as an option.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

I thought that less of ten percent of the population has SSA so…

 

[Ioana]

You mentioned that a victim may find it difficult to communicate due to the status of a priest. In a way you are correct. Same thing applies to certain beloved teachers and government officials or even superiors in the military or heck, even family members. The CC has currently taken huge steps to try and not have abuse happen and to encourage reporting. Given the current climate I doubt most parents have not heard of the crisis and would not respond to an allegation made by their child. I also think a lot of the emotional barriers for reporting would have been broken down. This privileged status of the clergy exists in virtually every religious group, so this particular barrier is not a CC only barrier. If you think God wouldn’t work through those sorts of people, just read the OT. David’s murder and sexual abuse was probably the first cover up.

 

[PetraG]

Have you read the posts by Rod Dreher about this? Dreher is a trustworthy source. When he says that for years (maybe decades) this man brought seminarians to his place, that number multiplies rapidly. I didn’t say thousands of bishops , of course. I said thousands of both priests and bishops combined.

“Thousands” implies well over 2,000. I find that number hard to believe, particularly the charge that this counts those who were silent with complicity rather than silenced by those who abused their authority to try to maintain a fake front that no one was committing these violations.

I don’t care how many times this guy lied to his bishop or begged for another chance. A Catholic banker can forgive a dishonest teller, but would never let the person touch the money again. Likewise, it is one thing to forgive someone who commits a sexual abuse but something else again altogether to let them have an opportunity to do it again. No matter how contrite they are, they abused a position of trust, a privileged position. Someone who does that needs to lose their position and never get it back, even if there was “only one” credible accusation.

 

[JimG]

The neglected root of the Church sex-abuse scandal

Two new episodes in the festering sex-abuse scandal have called attention to a facet of the problem that has long been understood (at least by some analysts), but routinely neglected if not actively suppressed: the connection between sexual abuse of young people and a widespread homosexual...

www.catholicculture.org

 

[Gorgias]

I see it as a possibility that a homosexual may find the all male environment of the priesthood to be attractive.

Take a minute to visit your parish during working hours sometime. I’m willing to bet that you’ll find that the “all male environment” will be a whole lot closer to “one priest and an office filled with women” than what you think it is.

If, on the other hand, you’re talking about seminary, then that’s an interesting claim. Let me ask you, then: would you make a lifetime commitment for eight years of proximity to chaste people to whom you are attracted? (That just doesn’t make sense, does it?)

The neglected root of the Church sex-abuse scandal

@JimG,

Here’s the head-scratcher for me in the assertion Lawler (and others make): if we found a priest who was sexually abusing teenage girls, would we call it a “heterosexual” scandal? Or, would we rightly name it for what it is: a scandal of priests – who are vowed to chaste celibacy – abusing minors?

When we label it a “homosexual scandal”, I think we miss the forest for the trees, and when we do so, we are as inaccurate as when others label it a “Catholic scandal.”

To my mind, this has less to do with orientation than it does a willingness to abuse a position of authority for sexual advantage. The fact that it occurs with vowed chaste celibates makes it worse. The fact that it is perpetrated on minors is even worse still.

 

[JimG]

I have no personal knowledge of the situation myself, but based upon the Michael Rose book and other anecdotal evidence such as the latest involving the Cardinal, my impression is that in past decades there came to exist an active homosexual subculture in some seminaries, which likely passed over into the priesthood of a certain generation. My own opinion is that the situation in the seminaries has largely been corrected.

Had there been a seminary subculture of sexually active seminarians seducing women at seminary that would also have been a grave violation of chastity which if not stopped could have carried over into the priesthood. But that did not happen.

 

[Gorgias]

my impression is that in past decades there came to exist an active homosexual subculture in some seminaries, which likely passed over into the priesthood of a certain generation.

Fair enough. And, based on some of the things I’ve read, I suspect that this was the case at some seminaries in the past, too.

However, that factoid doesn’t get us all the way to “clerical sexual abuse crisis.” It only gets us as far as orientation. Unless one is willing to suggest that homosexual men (or, at least, the subset of homosexual men who go to seminary and are ordained priests) are willing to break their promise of chaste celibacy, and then, on top of that, to suggest that of those who are, there’s another subset who are willing to do so criminally with minors… then we don’t really have a “homosexual crisis” here, as some have claimed.

Rather, we have a population of child abusers. That’s a whole different story. That’s the vector that we must be committed to quashing.

My own opinion is that the situation in the seminaries has largely been corrected.

And, like you, I believe that this is the case: there has been significant progress made in the Catholic Church, over the past two decades, at rooting out this problem. We can’t necessarily take credit for it – much of the institutional change stemmed from the heat that came from outside the Church – but we cannot in good faith ignore it, either.

We’re getting there. The Church is, IMHO, no longer the easy target for those who would sexually abuse our children.

 

[KevinK]

Archbishop Philip Wilson sentenced to 12 months' detention for child abuse cover-up - ABC News

 

[TOmNossor]

You mentioned that a victim may find it difficult to communicate due to the status of a priest. …Same thing applies to certain beloved teachers and government officials or even superiors in the military or heck, even family members. … This privileged status of the clergy exists in virtually every religious group, so this particular barrier is not a CC only barrier.

Hello,

I wanted to comment a little on this as it is somewhat similar to what I wrote here:

1. While things like “Jus Primae Noctis” are largely mythical they do speak to a truth that existed before the 17th century. The equality under the law and more importantly the principle of equality accepted by most people in the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries didn’t exist before. The sins of those with authority and/or power (religious, noble, financial, political, …) are less likely to be hidden than they once were. I think many good Catholic Bishops and others are addressing the problems mentioned in this thread, but such was unlikely 200-300 years ago simply because society had not developed to the place where the “common man” was equal in some ways to the nobles. Their word against the authority was not recognized.

Sexual sin and conflict is the latest area in which society is saying to those in power that they are not “above the law.” Part of what I think is happening has been happening for a handful of centuries. I would point to thoughts on the equality of man from folks like Voltaire, Rousseau and Locke which contributed to new forms of society. Long term stable societies of over 500 people existed in a natural state where kings or emperors interacted with nobles who ruled over peasants. The modern “open access” societies changed this and established stable and permanent groups where human equality was recognized by those in and out of power to a much greater degree than was common in the previous “natural state.”

I think the Bible provides a good foundation for this equality and it influenced most/all of the thinkers to which I am pointing. That being said, it took a period of time for the idea that some (the nobles, the rich, the church leaders, …) were inherently better than the peasants to die. Many nobles pointed to divine birth rights. Even Romans 13 in the Bible was used to justify obedience to the king (this was used by Luther, but probably on other occasions).

The American Revolution, the French Revolution and other changes in the way government was constituted were symptoms and contributions to the concept of equality.

I think education in this concept of equality AND a prevalent view of this concept of equality is very important. From this place, respect for leaders and clergy is possible AND/BUT holding leaders and clergy responsible for abuses is also possible.

This is part of what I see happening in numerous areas of society today. Sex and “me too” is just one of the latest.

Charity, TOm

 

[Sarcelle]

The wives don’t have to know about it much less approve of it.

The married priest can sleep with seminarians on the sly. If he wants to do it he will do it. It’s not like the marriage vows prevents him from doing the deed if he so desires.

Marriage is not a cure for sexual disorders. To believe so is misguided.

 

[Sarcelle]

Popular thinking holds that the cause behind the Church scandal is celibate priests and it is celibacy that is the problem.

I think people who have pedophile tendencies are attracted to positions of responsibility that have access to children and these includes clerics, teachers , Scout leaders, coaches, etc. So it is not otherwise normal men who are turned bad by celibacy but pedophiles who are attracted by the position of authority along with access to their victims.

You can see the same things with psychopaths who are attracted to positions of power.

 

[Sarcelle]

This is quite different than an otherwise virtuous man turning into a pedophile because of celibacy. If you really think this is the case we must arrest all men who are not married to prevent them from turning into pedophiles. Or we could cure pedophilia by making them get married.

Pedophiles are attracted to positions which afford them respectability and easy access to children. These positions could be a teacher, an athletic coach, or a cleric, or a minister.

 

[Sarcelle]

The number of unmarried adults is on the rise. Do you think this is a problem since you say celibacy could be a factor in pedophilia? I am not talking about priests here. At least no one is forcing men into the priesthood. Men who enter the priesthood at least know of the requirement for celibacy and they had a choice.

What about the lay people who are not priests but are celibate and not by choice. Should they be considered persons of interest by police since they will turn into pedophiles?