More big problems for Church

[Gorgias]

But I’m scandalized by McCarrick and the … many clerics at all levels who have covered up the story for years.

I find myself no longer trusting priests at all.

Fine. Distrust McCarrick and those of his generation. But… why distrust those who aren’t his contemporaries, or those who did not share in these (criminally!?!) negligent acts?

I mean… should I blame you for the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII? After all… you were an American during that time frame, right?

 

[Dorothy]

I am aware that there is corruption in the Church that needs to be confronted.

 

[AlNg]

Donohue is a sociologist. How does that make him an expert in the medical field of psychiatry?

He says he has a a doctorate in Sociology from New York University and has developed and taught courses on victims of sex abuse.

My undergraduate and graduate degrees make me just as expert as he is.

Where did you get your doctorate and how many courses have you developed and taught on victims of sex abuse? Do you hold any positions of authority in the Catholic Church, such as President of the Catholic League?

 

[po18guy]

1. This is not “more” problems. It may be more detail of an existing (past) problem.
2. It is not a big problem, being restricted in scope.
3. The Church has withstood far far greater threats than abusive clergy, as lamentable as that is.
4. Such threads can be near occasions of sin, as they invite gossip.

 

[AlNg]

Yes. It would be helpful for you to read up on the myths being asserted.

The article does state that certain things are myths but the article may be false. For example, the article states:
Clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church can’t be blamed on homosexuality.
However, an expert in this area, Dr. Bill Donohue, who is president of the Catholic league and has taught and developed courses on sex abuse says flat out something totally and completely different:
Abuse scandal rooted in homosexuality, not pedophilia, says Catholic League president
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...not-pedophilia-says-catholic-league-president
Dr. Bill Donahue says all priest pedophiles are gay

Bill Donahue says all priest pedophiles are gay | IrishCentral.com

Catholic League president Bill Donohue has claimed that the Catholic church pedophile crisis is really a homosex...

www.irishcentral.com

‘There’s A Connection Between Homosexuality And Sexual Abuse Of Minors’
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/01/bill-donohue-theres-a-con_n_521988.html

Abuse report’s failure to note role of homosexuality ‘unacceptable’
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...re-to-note-role-of-homosexuality-unacceptable

 

[KevinK]

These are people behaving badly. Are you saying if there were no Satan none of this would happen?

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

There wouldn’t have been sin in the first place.

 

[Dhc8_Type]

Paul was single but he wrote to Timothy in 1st Timothy chapter 3. The ideal qualities of a pastor. A married man with children was seen as ideal.

 

[ATraveller]

I’m a Protestant so obviously I don’t agree with clergy barred from marriage but if we genuinely want to stamp out abuse, getting rid of the priestly celibacy would fix nothing. It’s cosmetic and for the sex-obsessed cultural revolutionaries and ‘progressive’ ideologues, cosmetics are good enough for them BUT those of us genuinely concerned will not be satisfied with cosmetic ‘fixes’.

There’s no evidence that that was the cause despite psychobabble dressed up as ‘science’.
We also know plenty of married pastors in Protestant churches abused children. Abuse rates among Catholic clergy are about the same as Protestant ones. And they are no higher than in secular institutions or other religious groups. Plenty of abusers in sports like Larry Nassar or schools are also married.

 

[angel12]

Do you hold any positions of authority in the Catholic Church, such as President of the Catholic League?

President of the Catholic League is a position of authority in the Catholic League. Not the Church as a whole.

 

[Pup7]

He says he has a a doctorate in Sociology from New York University and has developed and taught courses on victims of sex abuse.

Still doesn’t make him a psychiatry expert. That makes him an expert on how humans interact with their environment and how they function within their social construct. Doesn’t make him an expert on the mind.

The article does state that certain things are myths but the article may be false.

So could Donohue’s, by that logic.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

but not with any other group?

You tell me.

It’s in proportion to the standards of the organization. If an accountant were embezzling from Exxon, we wouldn’t be shocked. If a bishop were embezzling from his diocese, we would be.

Catholics, for better or worse, are very public with “You should do this. You shouldn’t do that.” Fair enough, and that’s the job of the Church. But when the same people who do this also engage in sexual abuse, that’s just about the worst thing you can do.

Do you recall the case of a hospital in Phoenix a few years ago that was stripped of their “Catholic” label because they performed an abortion to save the life of mother? There was an “ethical advisor” who was a priest who advised the bishop to take those actions. Fast forward a couple years…the ethical advisor was charged with sexual abuse. This pretty much calls all his previous positions into question.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

Donohue is a sociologist. How does that make him an expert in the medical field of psychiatry?

He says he has a a doctorate in Sociology from New York University and has developed and taught courses on victims of sex abuse.

Again: how does that make him an expert in psychiatry, which is what’s being claimed?

Where did you get your doctorate

In psychiatry? Nowhere – just like Donohue.

Do you hold any positions of authority in the Catholic Church, such as President of the Catholic League?

Umm… you do realize, don’t you, that the Catholic League is not part of the Catholic Church, right? It’s an independent anti-defamation organization, completely run by laity. It is not part of the Catholic Church.

Dr. Bill Donahue says all priest pedophiles are gay

… which is why his credentials and credibility on this subject are suspect.

 

[angel12]

Dr. Bill Donahue says all priest pedophiles are gay

Pedophilia and homosexuality are two entirely different things. He is just flat wrong on this.

 

[TOmNossor]

It might be worthwhile to relax the celibacy rule and allow for married priests.

My personal convictions suggest that the spiritual development of Catholic priests would be enhanced by marriage, but I am sensitive to the truth that a priest who views his ministering work as second only to his love of God is of value. A married priest would need to place his wife and family in the hierarchy of his concerns whereas a celibate priest wouldn’t have this added responsibility.

That being said, I do not think the celibacy rule is a large part of the sexual sins seen within the Catholic priesthood.

First, pedophilia and homosexuality are not issues that kept at bay by entering into an opposite sex marriage. One who chooses to and succeeds at controlling these things may find fulfillment in marriage, but most (maybe all) who view marriage as the solution to their lack of control discover that it is not. In fact, it is the deification of sex that leads one to suggest that healthy sex within a marriage is so important it will cure pedophilia/homosexuality/insecurity/ …. Sex within a healthy marriage is something that enhances ones connection with their spouse not something that medicates one as they struggle with other things. Our society tells us that everyone has a right to and should prioritize a sex life filled with orgasms and individual gratification. I do not think this is a right message and I think it is a wrong focus.

Second, I have never been convinced that sexual sins are more prevalent among Catholic priests than among married Christians. All Christians groups and many non-Christian groups have issues with sexual sins and most of these groups have no celibacy rule.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

It might be worthwhile to relax the celibacy rule and allow for married priests.

Even if my previous post is true, there is still a reason that this problem exists.

So what is the cause?

I actually think what we see is a product of a few things:

1. Many wish to tear down Catholics and Christians.
2. Many misunderstand the “call to holiness” that all Christians celebrate as a “claim of holiness” and thus the lack of holiness is hypocrisy. Hypocrisy seems to be a sin in the eyes of even those who deny there is any such thing as sin. Some Christians are guilty when they say, “look at me,” but the best Christians say, “I too am a sinner.” Those who acknowledge their sin and yet still teach sin is wrong are not hypocrites.
3. As mentioned above sex is deified in our culture. Today’s religious leaders do not live in a bubble. They are sold products through sex. They are entertained by sex on primetime TV. They are bombarded by messages that they deserve orgasms in the frequency and way they desire. As much as we might like commitment to God to insulate us from these things, it cannot completely do this.
4. While things like “Jus Primae Noctis” are largely mythical they do speak to a truth that existed before the 17th century. The equality under the law and more importantly the principle of equality accepted by most people in the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries didn’t exist before. The sins of those with authority and/or power (religious, noble, financial, political, …) are less likely to be hidden than they once were. I think many good Catholic Bishops and others are addressing the problems mentioned in this thread, but such was unlikely 200-300 years ago simply because society had not developed to the place where the “common man” was equal in some ways to the nobles. Their word against the authority was not recognized.

I can ever think of more, but that is all I feel like typing.

Charity, TOm

 

[AlNg]

A married priest would need to place his wife and family in the hierarchy of his concerns whereas a celibate priest wouldn’t have this added responsibility.

Do you consider this to be an overriding factor?

 

[TOmNossor]

AlNg:

You mean like St. Peter who was married and who Our Divine Lord chose to be the first Pope?

And Paul was single. One example does not prove a point about the holiness of the many.

While I agreed with many of your points, I am not a fan of this apologetic argument about Paul’s marital status. Ignatius of Antioch claims that Paul like Peter was married. Eusebius of Antioch references favorably Clement of Alexandria’s claim that Paul greeted his wife. Origin also references Paul’s greeting of his wife.

I am aware of 1 Cor 7:8, but I (like some ECF and the earlier ones Ignatius and Clement of A) believe it refers to Paul’s missionary journeys where his wife didn’t accompany him NOT to his lack of marriage. It seems LIKELY he was married when he began his Christian service.

There is some disagreement, but again this seems to come later. I have not studied this too much, but at best there is no certainty that Paul was unmarried and I presently lean towards him having been married at least when he began his ministry.

Charity, TOm

 

[TOmNossor]

TOmNossor:

A married priest would need to place his wife and family in the hierarchy of his concerns whereas a celibate priest wouldn’t have this added responsibility.

Do you consider this to be an overriding factor?

I certainly do not. I am just trying to be fair to the arguments made by Catholic thinkers who I have read.

If your position was that the “crisis in priestly vocations” can be addressed by allowing married priests, I would not be so convinced that married priests was good or bad for the Catholic Church. It is the idea that priests marrying will improve problems with sexual sins that receive so much coverage with which I disagree.

I do not think attempted celibacy leads to pedophilia or to homosexuality. I think it possible that some folks who are both committed to their faith and who find themselves with sexual desires that will not be satisfied in a Catholic marriage may be more likely to choose institutional celibacy both because they have less desire for the relationships that lead to marriage AND because they hope that the priesthood will help them.

I might also say that I think religious convictions that lead to choosing the priesthood AND that grow during healthy formation for the priesthood are much better at addressing a propensity for sexual sin than is marriage.

All that being said, I should say that I really do not know the above. These are my perceptions based on some reading and some thinking. I am not aware of a prevalent body of research to answer these questions.

So, I think married priests would be good for priests and might be good for the Catholic Church and might be good for the number of priestly vocations. I do not think married priests will fix the sex scandal issue. I do think the Catholic Church is generally doing the right thing concerning sex scandals now.

But, I want to add:

I find the desire of many Catholics and folks of other faiths to lessen the tension between the standards of the faith and the standards of society (be this by allowing married priests, divorce, contraception, civil marriages outside the temple, or blood transfusions) to be problematic. Christianity was not in the beginning and should not be today a religion not in tension with society. As this happens, religious conviction will decline IMO.

Charity, TOm

 

[AlNg]

I do not think attempted celibacy leads to pedophilia or to homosexuality.

OK, but I read somewhere that men who are not attracted to women may find the celibate life to their liking.