More Discussion of LDS & Christian Tithing

[TAO1]

You do understand Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets?

Naturally, but that doesn’t mean they disappear either. The ten commandments maintain their potency, even being part of the Old Law. And I believe prophets do. Naturally, you probably believe differently though.

The sacrifices commanded in the OT were for the Chosen people of God, the Jews. These sacrificial practices prefigured the sacrifice of Jesus, Who is the fulfillment of all the OT sacrificial practices.

No, not quite. He was the fulfillment of some OT sacrifices. We are still expected to obey many OT laws, and in my opinion, those include some of the sacrifices. In addition, for LDS, the commandment of tithing was also re-asserted in 3rd Nephi and the Doctrine and Covenants.

No offense intended, but I see no reason to accept these writings as anything but a sort of fan fiction.

That’s fine, I’m not using it try and convince you or anything. I’m explaining why I do things a certain way. You are free to believe what you would like.

OK, but what I asked is, do you tie your sacrifice of tithing to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ? I didn’t ask about gratitude and service.

Sorry, but I need you to explain your question in more detail. What definition of tying do you mean?

I’m anticipating the answer will be partially yes and partially no (because that’s how it is with nearly everything).

Jesus Christ is God’s Perfect Sacrifices. Sacrifices given for the sake of sacrificing, are meaningless, unless they are tied to the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ. That is why I ask.

Well of course, if you mean that definition of tying, definitely yes. Without God’s grace, we wouldn’t be able to do a single bit - we’d be stuck in the gigantic black hole called death. Luckily, Christ’s sacrifice freed us from that. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t things we need to do to. Not for salvation from death, but for things higher, yes, you must do things, imho.

 

[TAO1]

Well the question is then, why would you believe the Holy Ghost abandoned Christ’s church in order that (1) and especially (2) would occur?

Serious question, yes it is.

Rebecca, the Holy Ghost can touch anyone, and everyone, at any time. There are inspired works from many different time periods, including during what LDS call ‘The Apostacy’.

On the other hand, the Gift of the Holy Ghost - that is the promise to have it in all time and all places - that is one thing we believe disappeared (in addition to the priesthood). And nah, we don’t believe it abandoned… rather… it left… to be restored at a later time.

I guess you could say we separate the idea of the Holy Ghost from the promise for him to be there always.

And yeah, definitely a serious question. A good one though. And feel free to believe contrary, I’m only explaining what I believe XD.

 

[TAO1]

WOULD EVERYONE STOP ASKING MORMON QUESTIONS. I FOR ONE AM TIRED OF THIS:newidea:

I’m sorry sir… =/.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Naturally, but that doesn’t mean they disappear either. The ten commandments maintain their potency, even being part of the Old Law. And I believe prophets do. Naturally, you probably believe differently though.

Jesus reframed the ten commandments in the beatitudes, that is why we follow them.

Jesus is our Prophet, High Priest and King. He is God’s Perfect Word. What do you think was left out by Jesus Christ, that caused the Word of God to be less than perfect?

Certainly, Catholics believe in the gift of prophecy. I think we are in disagreement as to the purpose of this gift, in light of Jesus Christ.

No, not quite. He was the fulfillment of some OT sacrifices. We are still expected to obey many OT laws, and in my opinion, those include some of the sacrifices. In addition, for LDS, the commandment of tithing was also re-asserted in 3rd Nephi and the Doctrine and Covenants.

This is in conflict with the NT.

That’s fine, I’m not using it try and convince you or anything. I’m explaining why I do things a certain way. You are free to believe what you would like.

Wasn’t asking permission.

Well of course, if you mean that definition of tying, definitely yes. Without God’s grace, we wouldn’t be able to do a single bit - we’d be stuck in the gigantic black hole called death. Luckily, Christ’s sacrifice freed us from that. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t things we need to do to. Not for salvation from death, but for things higher, yes, you must do things, imho.

I mean, do you DO something to tie them together? For example, do you say a prayer that indicates your offering is tied to the Father’s offering of Jesus Christ? Something like this is what I’m asking.

And you are still splitting what is not.

 

[RebeccaJ]

On the other hand, the Gift of the Holy Ghost - that is the promise to have it in all time and all places - that is one thing we believe disappeared (in addition to the priesthood). And nah, we don’t believe it abandoned… rather… it left… to be restored at a later time.
.

And again, WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE THIS?

It says to me you believe the gift of the Holy Spirit, that descended on the disciples at Pentecost, failed. Which says to me, you believe God failed to guide His own Church.

I find it an incredulous thing to believe. Scary, really, to think you believe Jesus Christ orphaned His Church (which He promised He would not do).

 

[zaffiroborant]

Rebecca, the Holy Ghost can touch anyone, and everyone, at any time. There are inspired works from many different time periods, including during what LDS call ‘The Apostacy’.

On the other hand, the Gift of the Holy Ghost - that is the promise to have it in all time and all places - that is one thing we believe disappeared (in addition to the priesthood). And nah, we don’t believe it abandoned… rather… it left… to be restored at a later time.

I guess you could say we separate the idea of the Holy Ghost from the promise for him to be there always.

And yeah, definitely a serious question. A good one though. And feel free to believe contrary, I’m only explaining what I believe XD.

Another stark difference in the LDS concept of God, He just… leaves you…

How terrifying and painful that concept must be. I can’t imagine how terrible it must be to believe that God would just leave you. Like Rebecca I can’t understand WHY you would choose to believe this, and how you could see any joy, hope, and most of all love in a god that would leave you. How is leaving love?

 

[sallybutler]

I have a dumb question. If I give to some other charity other than the LDS church, but it is still going to help God’s people, is this considered part of my tithing, or does only giving money to the LDS church count as tithing?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I have a dumb question. If I give to some other charity other than the LDS church, but it is still going to help God’s people, is this considered part of my tithing, or does only giving money to the LDS church count as tithing?

No.

 

[NewSeeker]

NewSeeker, I think there are either 1) manuscripts that have been changed minorly or 2) interpretations that were not expressed clearly. You are exaggerating what I believe.

And yes, the warm fuzzies. You mean the Holy Ghost. That is essentially what everything comes down to, yes. Everything must be based on the Holy Ghost.

1. The existence of small changes due to minor copying errors is not evidence that entire doctrines were edited out of the ancient manuscripts by wicked priests - which many Mormons believe. It’s just evidence that there were minor copying errors. Nothing substantial was lost, contrary to Mormon claims.
2. If the good feelings are contradicted by the evidence then it wasn’t the Holy Ghost speaking to you. Mormon claims of lost teachings and Apostasy are contradicted by the evidence.

 

[TAO1]

Jesus reframed the ten commandments in the beatitudes, that is why we follow them.

He states one of them directly in the Beautidues - thou shalt not kill. However, he rephrased the others through a vaguer verse:

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19)

Now, personally, by this one, I think he means all of the commandments, including those of the OT and NT. You may interpret the verse as you wish to though.

Jesus is our Prophet, High Priest and King. He is God’s Perfect Word. What do you think was left out by Jesus Christ, that caused the Word of God to be less than perfect?

Nah, I don’t believe that he caused it to be less than perfect, rather I believe he preserved some of it for a later time. Whether he also introduce it at that time or not, to have some of it disappear, I know not, but either way, I know he did what was right. =)

Certainly, Catholics believe in the gift of prophecy. I think we are in disagreement as to the purpose of this gift, in light of Jesus Christ.

I’d agree this is correct.

This is in conflict with the NT.

On the contrary, I believe not. His apostles still lived many of the laws that were in the Old Laws.

I mean, do you DO something to tie them together? For example, do you say a prayer that indicates your offering is tied to the Father’s offering of Jesus Christ? Something like this is what I’m asking.

If you consider offering gratitude to Father for everything he’s done for us (including offering Christ, but also much much more), then yes, definitely.

And you are still splitting what is not.

Which thing are you referring to exactly?

 

[TAO1]

And again, WHY WOULD YOU BELIEVE THIS?

Because the Holy Ghost said it was so. On the other hand, I have a hard time relating the degree of what it means to other people. You see, it wasn’t full error… it was removal of a few things that were important, kinda. It’s hard to explain the little degrees of it =/.

It says to me you believe the gift of the Holy Spirit, that descended on the disciples at Pentecost, failed. Which says to me, you believe God failed to guide His own Church.

Is it a failiure if it was God knew what would happen and planned to restore it all along?

I find it an incredulous thing to believe. Scary, really, to think you believe Jesus Christ orphaned His Church (which He promised He would not do).

As I said, you don’t really understand the degrees of what I mean. I don’t believe Christ didn’t orphaned them. Rather I believe, people lost some things which were precious, and God decided to wait to restore those things.

You have to realize: God rarely ‘orphans’ anybody… the only time he does that is when they indulge in some very bad sins… and even then, he hopes they come back. Yes, sometimes, we don’t receive all the blessings we could have, but that is in no way orphaning. That is God’s will, and his preparation for us. Just like the Old Law was.

Best of Wishes,
-TAO

 

[TAO1]

Another stark difference in the LDS concept of God, He just… leaves you…

Nope, we don’t believe this =p.

 

[TAO1]

I have a dumb question. If I give to some other charity other than the LDS church, but it is still going to help God’s people, is this considered part of my tithing, or does only giving money to the LDS church count as tithing?

Nah, tithing only counts as going to the church. But you are not a member of the church, so you aren’t under the commandment yet.

Still, giving money to charity is awesome, so keep it up =D.

 

[TAO1]

1. The existence of small changes due to minor copying errors is not evidence that entire doctrines were edited out of the ancient manuscripts by wicked priests - which many Mormons believe. It’s just evidence that there were minor copying errors. Nothing substantial was lost, contrary to Mormon claims.

Wikipedia disagrees =/. Not that it’s an authoritative source, but it tends to have a lot of information from good sources. Apparently the translators like to change things. We are able to piece back a lot, of course. But, what we aren’t able to piece back is interpretation.

1. If the good feelings are contradicted by the evidence then it wasn’t the Holy Ghost speaking to you. Mormon claims of lost teachings and Apostasy are contradicted by the evidence.

You have not provided good evidence for the things you are objecting to (interpretations especially).

Also… you do know that the Christian community at that time wasn’t exactly a solid group. It was quite varied in beliefs. It was only nearly a century later that the two counsels came together, allowing for much more unity.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Because the Holy Ghost said it was so. On the other hand, I have a hard time relating the degree of what it means to other people. You see, it wasn’t full error… it was removal of a few things that were important, kinda. It’s hard to explain the little degrees of it =/.

You should just realize, you’ve been told tales that aren’t true.

The Holy Spirit was not sent to the Apostles and disciples to give them a spirit of failure. You can read what the Spirit did for them in the NT, which is the same Spirit that has been and still is with Jesus’ Church, born of the Spirit at Pentecost. She has never died, as she cannot, for the Head of the Church is Jesus Christ, Risen.

God never planned for His Church to fail and nothing is lost as Jesus holds what is His.
God does not abandon us in our sins. Look to the Cross, and remember the words of St. Paul. Christ died for us while we were still sinners.

You have yet to say why it would be attractive for you to believe these tales of failure.

 

[RebeccaJ]

He states one of them directly in the Beautidues - thou shalt not kill. However, he rephrased the others through a vaguer verse:

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Matthew 5:19)

Now, personally, by this one, I think he means all of the commandments, including those of the OT and NT. You may interpret the verse as you wish to though.

Then you should follow the 613 laws in the OT.

You should also read the letters of St. Paul, and the Acts of the Apostles. Gentile converts to the Church were not, and are not, required to follow Jewish law. This is stated explicitly. Also, St. Paul explicitly teaches that the law and the prophets were given for the perfection of Israel, but they were not able to follow them. So God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, who is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. We are perfected in and through Jesus Christ, not by following the laws of the OT.

What, exactly, do you believe Jesus did not fulfill?

Nah, I don’t believe that he caused it to be less than perfect, rather I believe he preserved some of it for a later time. Whether he also introduce it at that time or not, to have some of it disappear, I know not, but either way, I know he did what was right. =)

God revealed Himself in Jesus Christ. What is insufficient in this Revelation? What is missing? I can’t think of anything, at all.

On the contrary, I believe not. His apostles still lived many of the laws that were in the Old Laws.

And how would this be possible? The Apostles were Jews, converted to Jesus Christ. Kicked out of the Jewish temple, and made unclean by the company they kept, according to Jewish law.

If you consider offering gratitude to Father for everything he’s done for us (including offering Christ, but also much much more), then yes, definitely.

Gratitude is not the offering we are discussing, it is tithes. Unless you are saying you believe tithing is like giving a tip to someone because you are grateful?

Which thing are you referring to exactly?

Separating Salvation from the results of Salvation.

 

[NewSeeker]

Wikipedia disagrees =/. Not that it’s an authoritative source, but it tends to have a lot of information from good sources. Apparently the translators like to change things. We are able to piece back a lot, of course. But, what we aren’t able to piece back is interpretation.

Agreed about the tendency of [some] translators to change [some] things in certain manuscript copies, but that does not support the thesis that entire doctrines have been removed or added. That’s a Mormon myth. As I said before, it’s known which things have been changed - as the info on wikipedia indicates. Most edits were minor. It’s known which major changes occurred to a handful of documents. The fact that those changes in a few manuscripts are contradicted by the vast majority of documentary witnesses in both Alexandrian and Byzantine traditions shows us that those changes are very late edits. The latest Bible translations take all of this into account. The KJV, for instance, is now a very outdated translation. Corrections have been made based on the earliest available evidence, yet ironically Mormons still consider the KJV to be the most correct translation. Go figure. Maybe it’s because their favorite proof texts depend on the KJV? Bart Ehrman’s work is the latest thorough attempt to demonstrate the extent of editing that occurred and it’s not nearly as significant as Mormons think it is.

You have not provided good evidence for the things you are objecting to (interpretations especially).

I’m objecting to the notion of an Apostasy and that Mormon doctrines were taught anciently. I see no evidence that either occurred. I am not required to marshal evidence that proves there was no Apostasy or Mormon teaching in the primitive church. The burden of proof is on Mormons to provide evidence that those things occurred. As indicated, that evidence is practically non-existent and primarily consists of verses/passages twisted out of context.

Also… you do know that the Christian community at that time wasn’t exactly a solid group. It was quite varied in beliefs. It was only nearly a century later that the two counsels came together, allowing for much more unity.

Sure…Paul’s letters show that there were variations in belief. That is not in question. But there was a single thread of teaching originating with Jesus that was handed on to the apostles, who handed it to the bishops they appointed - bishops such as Clement, Ignatius, and Polycarp. The presence of heretical groups early on only proves that there were heretical groups in existence. It does not prove that a single thread of authoritative teaching did not exist. You can’t prove a negative.

 

[Patavium]

You can believe that if you want. I don’t believe that =p.

Here it is quoted from LDS.org. The same Elder who said that, also you can find it written here at LDS.org

lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/the-lords-richest-blessings?lang=eng

Still don’t believe that?

If you don’t pay tithing, you don’t go to Heaven in LDS.

 

[Miriam1947]

WOULD EVERYONE STOP ASKING MORMON QUESTIONS. I FOR ONE AM TIRED OF THIS:newidea:

The nice thing about CAF is that you don’t have to read any thread you are not interested in.

I happen to be very interested in Mormon threads and read them all the time.

 

[Jerusha]

The nice thing about CAF is that you don’t have to read any thread you are not interested in.

I happen to be very interested in Mormon threads and read them all the time.

And the participants are so well-informed that I often learn more from reading than I can contribute by posting. It is called teamwork.