More Doctors 'Fire' Vaccine Refusers

[Tenofovir]

It think legally, the doc should have the right. Morally, I was under the impression that doctors had a belief system not unlike Christ and the Apostles (and likely one influenced by them). I thought they would feel a moral obligation to help all those in need even if the person refused to stop smoking or diving off cliffs, etc.

It could also be moral to drop a patient if the doctor feels he is enabling the patient’s bad behavior by constantly fixing him up.

It’s not the doctor’s job to judge the patient. The doctor may however transfer the patient to another doctor for a variety of reasons.

The vaccination issue is another animal. You have the right to determine what medicines to take if you are healthy or sick. You have the moral duty to safeguard your body using your best judgment. Vaccines are a judgment call. The idea that someone not taking a vaccine hurts someone else is very dangerous thinking. It’s precisely the same kind of anti-freedom thinking that required seatbelts, child carseats, cameras on street corners, and leads to the government regulating salt, school lunches (see the thread about the kid getting his lunch confiscated), and all sorts of evil overreaches.

Except seat belts save lives and reduce injury. This reduces the burden on society as a whole, does it not? Or should there be no law to prove one is capable of driving a car? What about drunken driving for those who can handle their booze better? What about my right to walk in the middle of the street and if you hit me with your car my lawyers will sue you?

The herd immunity argument is deceptively dangerous. It is true that a group of people who are immune is not likely to infect someone who was unable to take the vaccine. But why stop there? There are thousands of health practices (washing hands, using certain types of soap, washing your hair as often as guidelines suggest, etc) that would also protect people with weakened immune systems.

Smallpox. Do you think it’s good we got rid of that disease or would you rather someone else suffered so you could feel more proud of your ‘freedom’? I am not trying to mock you but just trying to see if I can reconcile this secular ultimate “I am in charge of my life” concept with carrying for others which is what Jesus Christ wants us to do. Now that need not necessarily be through government - governments are also worldly and bad, but I would think that out of love for Christ some people would be moved to love “the least of these”.

No, that’s a violation of our God given liberties as individuals. We are called to help others, but we are not called to follow the dictates of “experts” because it “may” help someone else. That type of thinking is why the Catholic church finds itself in a battle with the contraception case.

It’s a seperate issue. Contraceptives are not agents which prevent illness, suffering or death.

The “experts” cite statistics and studies that contraceptives prevent harmful conditions that “may” occur via pregnancy. Therefore, it is our duty to help prevent these conditions just as it is our duty to take vaccines according to the “experts” to prevent other harmful conditions. Science is a powerful guide and an essential one, but it is not the only factor in our judgment.

Except pregnancy is natural but having measles pneumonia is not.

See the logic? It’s twisted. The fact that pregnancy and vaccinations are different concepts or apples and oranges doesn’t matter once you begin buying into the herd mentality and the tyranny of the “experts”. You are a child of Christ. You should be able to decide whether to trust a vaccine and not have doctors and other “healers” shun you.

I don’t see the connection at all between contraception and prevention of suffering by infectious agents or not using seat belts which cause injuries and hurt the whole economy and therefore hurt other people too.

 

[SamTheNewfie]

Indeed. Experts in the US and Japan evidently disagreed. I suspect that someone will be vindicated before the end of this decade. Studies have shown that the chicken pox vaccine has reduced death from chicken pox by over 90%. Evidence from Taiwan suggests that fears of an explosion of shingles after vaccination did not pan out, so I am optimistic.

There is also the fact that a shingles vaccination is available.

Europe has lower child mortality rates. They don’t seem to be hurting from not vaccinating for every disease known to man. Chicken Pox has a mortality rate of one in 100,000. Anyone concerned about it is no place to criticize those who are concerned about vaccine injuries. The reason it is a part of the US schedule is to prevent parents from missing work.

As for a shingle vaccine, how convenient. Here is another opportunity to artificially alter the immune system.

I really think you should read up on the hygeine hypothesis. It is believed by many that our fear of every bacteria and virus on the planet is harming us in ways we don’t yet understand. The immune system was not meant to be idle. It is now more than ever, and now the “herd” suffers from allergies, autism, adhd, fibromyalgia, lupus, cancer, diabetes, etc…

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Except it is every responsible parent’s business. Why should they want to enable other parents to engage in risky behavior that endangers their own kids?

What risky behavior would that be? Breathing?

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Europe has lower child mortality rates. They don’t seem to be hurting from not vaccinating for every disease known to man. Chicken Pox has a mortality rate of one in 100,000. Anyone concerned about it is no place to criticize those who are concerned about vaccine injuries. The reason it is a part of the US schedule is to prevent parents from missing work.

As for a shingle vaccine, how convenient. Here is another opportunity to artificially alter the immune system.

I really think you should read up on the hygeine hypothesis. It is believed by many that our fear of every bacteria and virus on the planet is harming us in ways we don’t yet understand. The immune system was not meant to be idle. It is now more than ever, and now the “herd” suffers from allergies, autism, adhd, fibromyalgia, lupus, cancer, diabetes, etc…

I find the hygiene hypothesis to be fairly compelling. I think you misunderstand it though, if you think that vaccines are a contributing factor.

 

[SamTheNewfie]

Smallpox. Do you think it’s good we got rid of that disease or would you rather someone else suffered so you could feel more proud of your ‘freedom’? I am not trying to mock you but just trying to see if I can reconcile this secular ultimate “I am in charge of my life” concept with carrying for others which is what Jesus Christ wants us to do. Now that need not necessarily be through government - governments are also worldly and bad, but I would think that out of love for Christ some people would be moved to love “the least of these”.
.

I think the smallpox vaccine is the perfect example of a necessary vaccine. The disease is easily spread and highly dangerous to most of the population. This is unlike the Chicken Pox, Rotavirus, Rubella, Hep B, and HPV.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Vaccination or not, that is truly not the point here, but whether a doctor must treat people who as patients who sometimes follows his recommendations, sometimes reject it outright. I am a believer and freedom and am with the doctors on this. If you do not want vaccinations, then it is up to you to find a doctor that will treat you without vaccinating.

What is the alternative, to be forced by the government to provide a service that you don’t want to provide it to? Sounds like slavery to me. I’m with you, the a doctor chooses to drop a patient, so be it.

 

[Tenofovir]

Hep B is not acquired through casual contact. The only reason it is given at birth is convenience.

HBV is found in saliva and sweat. It can be transferred through kissing, sharing of utensils and even playground contact with exposure to blood. So not only sex, blood transfusions and needles. You can also get it during medical procedures. Blood - as in menstrual blood when you’re for example cleaning up and come into contact with that or in breast milk.

So not necessarily only sex and drug needles.

It was her responsibility to protect herself. It is not the job of my child to pick up her slack.

So Matthew 25:31-46 is irrelevant?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I think the smallpox vaccine is the perfect example of a necessary vaccine. The disease is easily spread and highly dangerous to most of the population. This is unlike the Chicken Pox, Rotavirus, Rubella, Hep B, and HPV.

And what of those people who carry immunity due to previous exposure to relatively minor diseases such as cowpox? Exposing them to potentially toxic substances in the name of conformity? No thanks.

 

[Tenofovir]

I think the smallpox vaccine is the perfect example of a necessary vaccine. The disease is easily spread and highly dangerous to most of the population. This is unlike the Chicken Pox, Rotavirus, Rubella, Hep B, and HPV.

Why? Why should some people be inconvenienced? In NYC when they first vaccinated for smallpox - 8 people died from that vaccine. Chances are those 8 would probably never have gotten ill anyway.

I just think your arguments can be used to prevent any vaccination at all.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Why? Why should some people be inconvenienced? In NYC when they first vaccinated for smallpox - 8 people died from that vaccine. Chances are those 8 would probably never have gotten ill anyway.

To make an omelette, you need to break a few eggs. Those people died in the name of Progress.

 

[Tenofovir]

To make an omelette, you need to break a few eggs. Those people died in the name of Progress.

OK so you’re against the idea of small pox eradication.

Please don’t talk to me of leftist ideologies unless you actually lived under a Communist system.

 

[scipio337]

Pediatricians fed up with parents who refuse to vaccinate their children out of concern it can cause autism or other problems increasingly are “firing” such families from their practices…

I don’t have a dog in the vaccination fight (I do vaccinate my kids, but don’t have a problem with those who don’t want to)…

but don’t doctors have the right to run their business the way they see fit?

 

[Tenofovir]

I don’t have a dog in the vaccination fight (I do vaccinate my kids, but don’t have a problem with those who don’t want to)…

but don’t doctors have the right to run their business the way they see fit?

Medicine is supposed to be a more noble and honourable profession. There is this Hippocratic Oath for instance.

 

[exnihilo]

but don’t doctors have the right to run their business the way they see fit?

Not in America. Let a doctor stop treating a practicing homosexual because that increases his risk of HIV and a host of other disease. What will happen then?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

OK so you’re against the idea of small pox eradication.

Please don’t talk to me of leftist ideologies unless you actually lived under a Communist system.

Ya, I am going to promote leftist ideas and Communism. You don’t read much of what I post, do you?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Not in America. Let a doctor stop treating a practicing homosexual because that increases his risk of HIV and a host of other disease. What will happen then?

Welcome to the “Unintended consequences of the Civil Rights Act of 1964”.

 

[TheTrueCentrist]

Why? Why should some people be inconvenienced? In NYC when they first vaccinated for smallpox - 8 people died from that vaccine. Chances are those 8 would probably never have gotten ill anyway.

I just think your arguments can be used to prevent any vaccination at all.

Smallpox killed 1 in 10 children in Europe, 1 in 7 in Russia. It affected around 60% of the world population and killed 1 in 4 of the infected. 8 people died to eradicate it you say? Clearly vaccines are the scourge of humanity.

 

[SamTheNewfie]

I find the hygiene hypothesis to be fairly compelling. I think you misunderstand it though, if you think that vaccines are a contributing factor.

The Hygeine Hypothesis:
This theory proposes that inadequate exposure to infectious organisms leads to immune dysfunction. Under normal circumstances, the immune system is exposed to various viral, bacterial, fungal, or parasitic challenges and becomes properly calibrated to these real threats following successful defences. Today’s public health successes, coupled with the increased use of antibiotics and vaccines, minimise opportunities to mount successful attacks against genuine attackers. IgE is still present, however, and, in the absence of harmful agents, it begins attacking harmless environmental substances.

There is an enormous amount of scientific evidence for this. Children who have had early infections manifest far less atopy, allergy and autoimmune disease. Populations in which parasitic infestation is common manifest lower levels of hay fever and asthma, or as in the case of Ghana in 1967 none that could be found. In the 60’s a study in Israel correlated levels of home hygiene with MS in the adult children growing up in those homes. The cleaner the home the more likely the adult child was to develop MS. People who have had measles have fewer allergies, as do the younger children with multiple siblings, presumably because they have experienced far more childhood diseases because of exposure through their siblings.

Animal studies also support the hygiene theory; mice treated with antibiotics showed greater sensitivity to mould allergens, lab animals kept in sterile conditions develop Type I Diabetes and allergies. The hygiene hypothesis, however, cannot satisfactorily explain the high prevalence of allergies in poor inner-city housing, where potential exposure to harmful agents is increased. Similarly, total antibiotic sales do not correlate with shifts in the prevalence of allergies or autoimmune diseases.

hygienehypothesis.com/

 

[SamTheNewfie]

Why? Why should some people be inconvenienced? In NYC when they first vaccinated for smallpox - 8 people died from that vaccine. Chances are those 8 would probably never have gotten ill anyway.

I just think your arguments can be used to prevent any vaccination at all.

Because smallpox presents a significant threat against the entire population, not just select groups. It is spread through casual contact, and up to 60% healthy individuals who contract it will die. This is a stark contrast to the Measles.

 

[SamTheNewfie]

HBV is found in saliva and sweat. It can be transferred through kissing, sharing of utensils and even playground contact with exposure to blood. So not only sex, blood transfusions and needles. You can also get it during medical procedures. Blood - as in menstrual blood when you’re for example cleaning up and come into contact with that or in breast milk.

So not necessarily only sex and drug needles.

So Matthew 25:31-46 is irrelevant?

Even pro-vax sites admit it’s not easily spread:

Hepatitis B is not spread by air, food, water, breastfeeding, casual contact in an office setting, kissing, hugging, coughing, sneezing, or sharing eating utensils or drinking glasses.

liver.stanford.edu/Education/faq.html

As for the verse you mention, I don’t see how it applies. I would rather protect my innocent child from an unnecessary vaccine than protect someone from their own irresponsibility.