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Catholic_Heart
Guest
I saw a rerun of his interview, and the guy is nuts. My question is…Why do celebrities suddenly know all about everything…They become instant experts…
- Status
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Cruise has some good points.
He did a lousy job of making them because he just kept repeating them instead of actually explaining anything or backing himself up.
There are “mental illnesses” characterized by pathology, such as mental retardation, brain damage from trauma, alzheimers, etc.
Then there are “mental illnesses” that are characterized by externally observable behavioral criteria, such as various types of psychosis.
The second set, I personally believe, are not caused by a “chemical imbalance” at all, except maybe in some weird cases. Now there may be a chemical imbalance as a result of a psychosis, and that may cause additional symptoms but Cruise has one thing right. “Chemical imbalance” is a bullsh*t term, used to try to pretend there’s a “physical” explanation to a spiritual, emotional, and mental problem.
Prescription medication can help with symptoms, but is not going to cure the problem. The cure is, in fact, spiritual. The Holy Spirit can heal these people and repair a lifetime of psychological damage. Drugs cannot. Drugs can help reduce symptoms and help restore important functions, such as helping the patient get sleep which a manic, for example, tend to lack to the point that it prohibits healing.
In other words, the drugs may enable healing but they don’t bring it about. Cruise calls them a “mask” which might sound a bit unfair, but really not so far off. Yes, when the symptoms are that you compusively talk a mile a minute and get no sleep, drugs can help slow down the mind to get some sleep and to relieve the symptom of “pressured speech.” You could call that a mask, or you could call it a cast that helps hold things in place.
What Cruise is right about is that the medicine does not fix the problem. I have no idea, nor did he give any indication here, what the solution to a problem would be, given his religion or whatever. Therefore, I’ll give him credit for challenging Big Psychiatry because they need a kick in the butt; unfortunately I don’t think Cruise came off with enough credibility that anybody who matters will take him seriously.
His biggest problem in this interview is that he doesn’t know how to argue; he just keeps repeating himself. And he says the same things over again, and he’s redundant. Not only that, he says the same thing an extra time rather than try to explain or add to it. Plus, he gets redundant and sometimes remakes a point rather than supports it.
Alan
He did a lousy job of making them because he just kept repeating them instead of actually explaining anything or backing himself up.
There are “mental illnesses” characterized by pathology, such as mental retardation, brain damage from trauma, alzheimers, etc.
Then there are “mental illnesses” that are characterized by externally observable behavioral criteria, such as various types of psychosis.
The second set, I personally believe, are not caused by a “chemical imbalance” at all, except maybe in some weird cases. Now there may be a chemical imbalance as a result of a psychosis, and that may cause additional symptoms but Cruise has one thing right. “Chemical imbalance” is a bullsh*t term, used to try to pretend there’s a “physical” explanation to a spiritual, emotional, and mental problem.
Prescription medication can help with symptoms, but is not going to cure the problem. The cure is, in fact, spiritual. The Holy Spirit can heal these people and repair a lifetime of psychological damage. Drugs cannot. Drugs can help reduce symptoms and help restore important functions, such as helping the patient get sleep which a manic, for example, tend to lack to the point that it prohibits healing.
In other words, the drugs may enable healing but they don’t bring it about. Cruise calls them a “mask” which might sound a bit unfair, but really not so far off. Yes, when the symptoms are that you compusively talk a mile a minute and get no sleep, drugs can help slow down the mind to get some sleep and to relieve the symptom of “pressured speech.” You could call that a mask, or you could call it a cast that helps hold things in place.
What Cruise is right about is that the medicine does not fix the problem. I have no idea, nor did he give any indication here, what the solution to a problem would be, given his religion or whatever. Therefore, I’ll give him credit for challenging Big Psychiatry because they need a kick in the butt; unfortunately I don’t think Cruise came off with enough credibility that anybody who matters will take him seriously.
His biggest problem in this interview is that he doesn’t know how to argue; he just keeps repeating himself. And he says the same things over again, and he’s redundant. Not only that, he says the same thing an extra time rather than try to explain or add to it. Plus, he gets redundant and sometimes remakes a point rather than supports it.
Alan
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masondoggy
Guest
What I want to know is why Tom Cruise thinks it’s any of his beeswax to be discussing Brooke Shields medical decisions/problems on national TV and criticizing her? The guy has A LOT of nerve! I would be furious if I were Brooke Shields!
And yes…that guy has gone off the deep end. Which may not actually be a bad thing because he’s actually exposing just how looney scientology makes it’s members. Maybe scientology’s biggest spokesman will ultimately be responsible for it’s downfall.
I hope.
And yes…that guy has gone off the deep end. Which may not actually be a bad thing because he’s actually exposing just how looney scientology makes it’s members. Maybe scientology’s biggest spokesman will ultimately be responsible for it’s downfall.
I hope.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I have no idea how scientology comes into play.
You could make the case that Cruise should not talk about Shields’ medical issues. Given that he did, his opinions about it being unfortunate she’s on antidepressants can be somewhat justified.
For someone who thinks, like he does, that medications mask problems and make them harder to heal, then even not knowing her specific situation one can make certain true statement. I’ll make one here: whatever her problem is, I hope the drugs are helping but I’m confident the drugs are not the answer and will not be the agent of healing. How can I say that without knowing her detailed situation? Given what I believe about psychiatry, it is axiomatic. It would be like if a Catholic said that it is too bad a certain non-Catholic actor uses condoms; it is a perfectly legal and valid medical solution, according to some, but even without knowing the details of an individual case one can honestly make that generality.
From the transcript, I agree he probably sounded like a fool. That doesn’t mean his comments should be ignored; just because a cause is poorly argued, that doesn’t make it a bad cause. The world, including psychiatry, has gone drug-happy. The way psychiatrists pick a drug for a patient is to look at how the patient acts, assign them a label based on that, then try any number of a list of drugs that go with that label, and if one doesn’t work they try a different one.
Alan
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jman507
Guest
Now I would say knowing people that have taken steroids they will quite often have ‘roid rage.’ I would say much of that aggresive behavior is due to the testasterone. Now I’d say thing can happen in the body that can dramatically increase hormones in the body. Do that and it can change their behavior. Heck I know that when I was on high doses of hormones I had mental changes. You could call that bull**** But I say praise the Lord you have not had to deal with it. It may have been over diagnosed, but that does not mean that ‘chemcial imbalances’ cannot happen. You can say people who have mental problems only need the Holy Spirit, but if it is caused by a physical problem, they too need a physcial remedy too. Much the same as if someone has cancer they not only need the Holy Spirit but they also need something to help the physical problem.
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deb1
Guest
Scientology comes into play because Scientologist believe that all mental illness can be cured with vitamins and will power. I kid you not. SO at issue is not that some psychology is bs but that scientologist beliefs could hurt people with real mental disorders.
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Mom_of_one
Guest
**Very well said, Alan. You said almost everything that I wanted to say and much better, too! The only thing I disagree with is the chemical imbalance issue. I think that there can be a chemical imbalance that causes problems, much as there’s bodily “chemical imbalances”, such as too much or too little insulin, thyroid hormone, potassium, etc. Spiritual issues are, however, not looked at enough. **Cruise has some good points.
He did a lousy job of making them because he just kept repeating them instead of actually explaining anything or backing himself up.
There are “mental illnesses” characterized by pathology, such as mental retardation, brain damage from trauma, alzheimers, etc.
Then there are “mental illnesses” that are characterized by externally observable behavioral criteria, such as various types of psychosis.
The second set, I personally believe, are not caused by a “chemical imbalance” at all, except maybe in some weird cases. Now there may be a chemical imbalance as a result of a psychosis, and that may cause additional symptoms but Cruise has one thing right. “Chemical imbalance” is a bullsh*t term, used to try to pretend there’s a “physical” explanation to a spiritual, emotional, and mental problem.
Prescription medication can help with symptoms, but is not going to cure the problem. The cure is, in fact, spiritual. The Holy Spirit can heal these people and repair a lifetime of psychological damage. Drugs cannot. Drugs can help reduce symptoms and help restore important functions, such as helping the patient get sleep which a manic, for example, tend to lack to the point that it prohibits healing.
In other words, the drugs may enable healing but they don’t bring it about. Cruise calls them a “mask” which might sound a bit unfair, but really not so far off. Yes, when the symptoms are that you compusively talk a mile a minute and get no sleep, drugs can help slow down the mind to get some sleep and to relieve the symptom of “pressured speech.” You could call that a mask, or you could call it a cast that helps hold things in place.
What Cruise is right about is that the medicine does not fix the problem. I have no idea, nor did he give any indication here, what the solution to a problem would be, given his religion or whatever. Therefore, I’ll give him credit for challenging Big Psychiatry because they need a kick in the butt; unfortunately I don’t think Cruise came off with enough credibility that anybody who matters will take him seriously.
His biggest problem in this interview is that he doesn’t know how to argue; he just keeps repeating himself. And he says the same things over again, and he’s redundant. Not only that, he says the same thing an extra time rather than try to explain or add to it. Plus, he gets redundant and sometimes remakes a point rather than supports it.
Alan
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Shinobu
Guest
He does make a point though. When I was put on medication for my panic disorder the medication did not heal me. The medication was not the solution. He makes a point there, that is true. Medication will not cure your depression, obsessive compulsive behaviour, panic disorder, generalized anxiety ect ect.
I agree as well ****AlanFromWichita made great points.
darnit stupid bold tag I can’t get rid of ****
I agree as well ****AlanFromWichita made great points.
darnit stupid bold tag I can’t get rid of ****
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I fuilly agree that chemical imbalances do happen, and they profoundly affect behavior. For example, I would say that my wife’s occasions of so-called “post-partum depression” were triggered and fueled by a chemical imbalance.
What I am calling bull**** is that psychiatrists don’t exactly know the “cause” of sever bipolar disorder such as I had, but the “popular thinking” which tends to get promoted almost as Gospel is that these things are probably caused by a “chemical imbalance.”
The powers of Hollywood are hard at it; a few months ago I watched some TV for a few weeks and was astounded by the Zoloft little fuzzy dudes, and the explanation that matter-of-factly insinuated that “chemical imbalance” is the cause of depression. Well, maybe it is, and maybe the depression is the cause of the chemical imbalance. Maybe the depression is caused by a person who is having a hard time making sense of what feels unfair, confusing, or scary to them. Since we don’t know why one person fares better than another in the same trials, we chalk it up to invisible stuff.
The real problem with medical treatment, according to my spiritual director, is that the doctors are all specialized. A whole person consists of physical, mental, spiritual, social, sexual (closely associated with self identity), and emotional. Professionals are experts at maybe one or two categories, so they see everything through their own perspective, and may treat the wrong component of the person.
The opposite of this generality also happens, of course. People can be treated for psychological problems for years only to find out is it some chemical imbalance such as diabetes. I have no doubt these types of things can trigger mental problems that behave just like my “spiritual” ones, and I concede that medical treatment in such cases may just be the cure.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Do they also apply this belief to people who clearly have pathology of the brain, such as can be detected with MRI?
Alan
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Lorarose
Guest
If I listen to Tom Cruise, I won’t take medication for my underactive thyroid. According to Tommy, no such “chemical imbalance” exists.
My doctor - who is much more educated than Tommy - has assured me that blood tests confirm the imbalance, and the sluggishness/depression I’ve been feeling should improve.
If I follow the Scientologist approach…my blood pressure will stay dangerously low, and no matter how much I beat my head against the wall - I will carry this sluggish feeling around with me.
I would imagine the Scientology approach could actually drive a person crazy as they would feel like failures for not being able to “fix” themselves without medication.
My doctor - who is much more educated than Tommy - has assured me that blood tests confirm the imbalance, and the sluggishness/depression I’ve been feeling should improve.
If I follow the Scientologist approach…my blood pressure will stay dangerously low, and no matter how much I beat my head against the wall - I will carry this sluggish feeling around with me.
I would imagine the Scientology approach could actually drive a person crazy as they would feel like failures for not being able to “fix” themselves without medication.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
You might be right, but are you saying this based on the Cruise interview, or on other information you have?
The reason I ask, is that I didn’t hear him denying drug effects outside of strictly “mental illness” context in the interview. Therefore, I don’t know what Scientologists would think of medicatin for thyroid based on that interview. That’s part of what I mean, Cruise didn’t really explain himself well.
Does scientology deny the use of any pharmaceuticals for any medical purpose? I guess not since they take vitamins, but I don’t know.
Alan
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Ghosty
Guest
Out of curiousity, do you work in medicine? Have you seen what happens to people with certain conditions when they go off their meds? I both work in medicine and suffer from clinical depression, and I have some objections to the things you’ve said here.
First of all, if the chemical imbalance was a result of the psychosis, then changing the chemicals in the body wouldn’t eliminate the psychosis, and we wouldn’t see any results from medication use. Anyone who’s spent ANY amount of time in a clinical setting and watched people with certain mental illnesses both on and off their meds can tell you that behavior shifts radically depending on the medication use. There have been scientific studies done about how different chemicals and hormones affect the brain and body, and they are very thorough. Treating emotional and mental categories as seperate from physical is completely denying the very real and very factual scientific studies that have been done on the brain. The brain is an electro-chemical operating system, and emotions and thoughts are processed through that system. Did you know that removing certain parts of the brain, for example, can completely alter a person’s emotions and personality? Similarily, changing the chemical balance in the brain, which is carefully maintained by healthy bodies, will change the way emotion and thought travel through the brain.
Now, of course there is a spiritual side to mental health, and I would never argue against that. The chemical aspects are the quickest and easiest to tackle, however, and they are usually the ones focused on first. In medicine we generally deal with the easy and obvious first (he’s bleeding from a gash in his side: stop the bleeding by applying pressure) and then work our way up the ladder (pressure doesn’t stop the bleeding: apply stiches to close the wound). In the case of mental illness we often start by using medications because that is the easiest approach, and the most obvious, and if it works there is no need to do more. We don’t bust out the sowing kit, so to speak, on a stubbed toe. The deep-rooted social/family/spiritual aspects are much harder to get to, and, more importantly, can’t be dealt with through medication. If we give medicine to someone exhibiting certain symptoms and that doesn’t solve the problem, we move on to higher forms of help. We eliminate steps from smallest to biggest in these situations, as that is best for both the patient and the medical providers, and saves a lot of turmoil.
In my case, for example, it was found that medication completely eliminated my clinical depression, and no further mental treatment was deemed necessary. Had they started with therepy, rather than merely psychological evaluation, they could have wasted a lot of time digging through my past for problems that weren’t there, all the while I would have been on the verge of suicide. There would be no way to know if I wasn’t recovering because they hadn’t found the source of my issues, or if it was because I had a chemical problem. By starting with medication, however, they eliminated the problem early. Had medication NOT worked, they would have known that the problem was not entirely physical in nature and started probing the less material aspects of my brain. Starting with therepy leaves you with no answers if it fails, whereas starting with medication does.
Yes, there are doctors who get stuck in the “medicate to eliminate” mode of thinking, and they are detrimental to the field and to health care. That is not the approach that is generally being taught and encouraged now, though starting with medication (after psychological evaluation) is likely to always be the prefered method for the reasons I described above. You always start with the least and the easiest before moving up the ladder. People with mental illness who are apparently functioning well with medication aren’t just set loose on their own, either, but continue to be monitored for possible changes. It’s been over 4 years for me now, and I still have to go to regular appointments for evaluation to ensure that the medication is working. We even tried a carefully monitored test of taking me off the medication, and I slipped right back into clinical depression despite the fact that my spiritual and social life is far and away better than it was before I began treatment.
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Ghosty
Guest
Basically I want to stress that just because medication is abused by some doctors does not mean that there is anything fundamentally wrong with the intended method of mental healthcare, and certainly nothing wrong with medication. Chemical imbalances in the body are very real, and can greatly disrupt all kinds of functions, from thought and emotion to digestion and growth. Our bodies are very material, and very material thing affect our bodies. This is by God’s design, not counter to it. This is why we must eat, and why what we eat has an effect on our systems. Medication is not counter to spirituality, but rather a direct component of it when used properly. We must recognize our physical needs in order to address our spiritual needs.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I agree with this summary. My own psychiatrist said “they” (members of his profession) don’t exactly know how healing takes place. They do use drugs to treat the symptoms, and adjust them based on the symptoms. He looks at them as a cast; they don’t actually bring about the healing, but they hold things together so the mind can heal itself.
Alan
Z
Zooey
Guest
The answer is yes…Scientology believes that illness is the result of letting your past lives & aliens from outer space control your thinking. Once you are “clear” (which basically comes down to being able to fool a modified lie detector), all your illness will go away…
They are told that all people who are on psychotropic drugs are sooner or later going to be given electroshock treatment. This is also because of space aliens. (I am not making this stuff up. I have been reading up on scientology, which was made up by its “founder”, L Ron Hubbard, as a way to make money…(He admitted this to people; he was a scam artist).
Scientology is a very scary thing. It is not really a religion, it is a mind control cult. Furthermore, there is evidence that people have actually died for lack of their meds. Not committed suicide–though that has happened too–I am talking about other meds that are necessary for people to stay alive. And they are being fed toxic doses of “supplements” by their “religious” leaders.
I am not surprised to see what has happened to Cruise; saddened, but not surprised. There are several threads on these forums that have been discussing scientology. Anyone who wants to find out more about it, please search them out. They have a lot of info, & some links that can show more about what is going on in this group.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Yes, I have seen what happens. In about 1984 or 1985, a manic-depressive quit taking his lithium after eight years against medical advice, and eventually brought a gun to Towne East shopping mall and shot a bunch of people.
Also, once I got the right attitude toward medication, I not only was able to cheerfully discuss with and obey the doc, I was able to take some prn. For example, right now I take 600 lithium carb, 50 Zoloft, and 10 Lexapro. Honestly I am ready to reduce them but my doc is more conservative and doesn’t want me to change just yet because I am doing so well…
I used to hate taking tranquilizers but am to the point now that I take them rarely, and only PRN. If my mania (can you tell by my posting that I am prone to mania) starts keeping me up at nights, I keep some Risperdal handy. For a while I was taking something like 6 mg a day. Now 1/2 mg is enough to help me sleep.
The problem with “clinical observations” is that they are just that – observations. Since “psychosis” is behaviorally defined, then technically if the symptoms aren’t present at any given moment, then I suppose one could conclude that the illness itself is gone.
Your logic here doesn’t agree with mine on the consequences of my claim. If the psychosis were the chicken and it laid the egg of chemical imbalance, that does not imply that the illness will not respond to drugs. To use a radical example, if a person commits violent crime out of anger, then locking the person up does reduce the symptoms, but doesn’t necessarily address the anger.
Never did I, nor would I, suggest that medications don’t make an impact on behavior. They can correct the symptoms, and eventually the confusion, frustration, stress, whatever caused that may fade into memory. It is my assertion that they do not correct the underlying psychological problems.
This is precisely my point. There are six components to a whole person, and any given person has more than one messed up. If the wrong one is targeted, treatment may be ineffective, temporary, or superficial. Treatment by the Divine Therapist actually brings healing about, but is not known to most medical personnel. Ignoring a physical problem and treating it as mental or emotional is just as bad as the other way around, and I have conceded that there are a subset of cases I originally might have indicated that are, in fact, caused chemically.
Definitely. It would be very foolish and/or uninformed to think otherwise.
That’s all well and good. I understand that, and agree with it.
(continued)
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
(continued)
Just because I can go for a few days without demonstrating symptoms, doesn’t mean the problem is fixed, or that the medications are the right Final Answer. If we take a professional fighter and treat his injuries, you expect them back because of his lifestyle. You have to change the root cause of injury or you really cannot claimed to have brought about any healing whatsoever, but to have offered temporary symptomatic relief.
with their faith.If you have spent time around mentally ill, then you might notice that patients in a lockup ward tend to be very interested in religion and spiritual things. They talk about them frequently to each other unless they are suppressed by the staff. Many are the way they are in part because of their strong beliefs, and their inability to reconcile their experiences in the “real world” with their faith. You’d think this would give some clue as to what sort of things are important to the mental and emotional state of a person. Psychiatrists in a lockup ward are notoriously poor listeners, from my observation. They don’t take what I say seriously because they don’t know what to do with it; they are looking for signs and symptoms. It takes a very creative doctor with good listening skills to make good use of what the patient actually says, and I admit that is more of an art than a science. Again, that’s one reason the spiritual side of things, even if sticking out like a sore thumb, goes unnoticed or mistreated.
Spiritual healing has never been recommended to me or even hinted at by a doctor, when it turned out to be the most significant factor for me. Medicine doesn’t realize that, though, because they are not trained in these things. It was my wife’s observations and opinions that led me to spiritual direction.
Don’t sell your faith short. Maybe you aren’t ready to take of the training wheels yet, and without them you fall down.
Maybe your problem is entirely chemical in origin and has nothing to do with anything else. Of course I don’t know.
My assertion is that the vast majority of mental patients are not sick because some mysterious “chemical imbalance” acted as root cause. Medicine has no effective tools for even detecting spiritual issues, so they might control the symptoms but have no hope of correcting these problems. OTOH, a spiritual director will not hesitate to refer a client to a psychiatrist if it is warranted.
Alan
This is a bit disturbing. We find a person who is very anxious, give them a drug and they appear to be better, and we shrug and say, “guess that’s fixed.” Then we put the same person back in to the same messed up situations with the same ways of thinking and wonder why mental illness comes back.
Just because I can go for a few days without demonstrating symptoms, doesn’t mean the problem is fixed, or that the medications are the right Final Answer. If we take a professional fighter and treat his injuries, you expect them back because of his lifestyle. You have to change the root cause of injury or you really cannot claimed to have brought about any healing whatsoever, but to have offered temporary symptomatic relief.
The fact that the deep-rooted aspect are harder to get to, is certainly true and helps make my case. Psychiatry and psychology find these problems difficult, in part because they are so heavily tied to belief systems, including spirituality.
with their faith.If you have spent time around mentally ill, then you might notice that patients in a lockup ward tend to be very interested in religion and spiritual things. They talk about them frequently to each other unless they are suppressed by the staff. Many are the way they are in part because of their strong beliefs, and their inability to reconcile their experiences in the “real world” with their faith. You’d think this would give some clue as to what sort of things are important to the mental and emotional state of a person. Psychiatrists in a lockup ward are notoriously poor listeners, from my observation. They don’t take what I say seriously because they don’t know what to do with it; they are looking for signs and symptoms. It takes a very creative doctor with good listening skills to make good use of what the patient actually says, and I admit that is more of an art than a science. Again, that’s one reason the spiritual side of things, even if sticking out like a sore thumb, goes unnoticed or mistreated.
I am glad that your treatment worked well. The approach you mention is due to the state of the art as much as anything. Medicine and certain behavior systems are relatively easy to define and measure, and gives quantitative results. Psychology is still pretty “subjective” so it’s harder to measure whether treatment is helping or not overall, although there are some standard measures that can be applied but that is still open to interpretation.
Spiritual healing has never been recommended to me or even hinted at by a doctor, when it turned out to be the most significant factor for me. Medicine doesn’t realize that, though, because they are not trained in these things. It was my wife’s observations and opinions that led me to spiritual direction.
I’m glad you are doing well now, both medically and spiritually.
Don’t sell your faith short. Maybe you aren’t ready to take of the training wheels yet, and without them you fall down.
Maybe your problem is entirely chemical in origin and has nothing to do with anything else. Of course I don’t know.
My assertion is that the vast majority of mental patients are not sick because some mysterious “chemical imbalance” acted as root cause. Medicine has no effective tools for even detecting spiritual issues, so they might control the symptoms but have no hope of correcting these problems. OTOH, a spiritual director will not hesitate to refer a client to a psychiatrist if it is warranted.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
That’s pretty bad. Maybe Cruise did himself a favor by not being very articulate about what he really thinks! :whacky:
OK, so this scientology doesn’t sound like something I want to pursue any time soon.
Still, regarding the issue of medications masking rather than healing, I believe there is some truth to that. Just because a point is poorly argued doesn’t mean it’s invalid.
Oh, you said what “happened” to Cruise? What did happen to him? I knew nothing about him before I read the interview on Drudge report. I really don’t watch tv hardly at all.
Alan
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Christus_Rex
Guest
I wonder what he’ll do if Katie holmes ever gets ill?! Will he deny her the therapy/electric shock etc. that could save her life? Will he deny her medicine if she ever has depression?!
I see a very unhappy life for the poor girl.
Michael :nope:
sweetchuck:
I see a very unhappy life for the poor girl.
Michael :nope:
- Status