Mormans and polygamy

[Stephen168]

According to you.

No, according to history. Jesus Christ died 1800 years before the establishment the Latter Day Saint Movement, so it a physical impossibility for Christ to have established it. Any secular history book will tell you that Joseph Smith started the Latter Day Saint Movement.

According to you

No, according to history. No secular history book will ever give at date or a person associated with a ‘great apostasy.’ Now various Protestants that have invented doctrine contrary to Orthodoxy might justify themselves by claiming it was Orthodoxy that changed and not them, but none of them would ever agree on a historical date for an apostasy. They would not agree because it only happened in their minds and not as actual historical event. And as I pointed out on another thread, in reference to Mormonism in particular, it is almost irrational for a Mormon to believe in an apostasy.

Yes

As I pointed out on the other thread; Brighamite Mormons change doctrine all the time, so it is hypocritical to use it as an example of apostasy. Fundamentalist Mormons prefer to hang on to the old teachings; like blood atonement.

 

[Esdra]

No, according to history. No secular history book will ever give at date or a person associated with a ‘great apostasy.’ Now various Protestants that have invented doctrine contrary to Orthodoxy might justify themselves by claiming it was Orthodoxy that changed and not them, but none of them would ever agree on a historical date for an apostasy. They would not agree because it only happened in their minds and not as actual historical event. And as I pointed out on another thread, in reference to Mormonism in particular, it is almost irrational for a Mormon to believe in an apostasy.

I really like to help our friend, BYUChemAlum, here in this respect: The “Great Apostasy” has no date, as there never WAS a date where it occured. “The Great Apostasy” is a process.
From that point of view, I can understand the LDSs pretty well. :yup:

Actually, this also has been my belief for a long time. In the meantime I am not so sure anymore… Since being here at CAF.

 

[Esdra]

No, it doesn’t. Christ didn’t make a mistake. - He is god, he can’t err.

But the apostles (and their successors) were errant PEOPLE! Do you really think they always have done only good? They were sinners and the devil had might over them just with people nowadays. You see, if they weren’t, John would lie and we indeed were sinless (1 John 1:10: “If we say, “We have not sinned,” we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”)

Don’t you really not believe that the Devil is interested in destroying in God’s opus, His Church?
And I think in the one or other occasion in 2000 years of History, he certainly succeeded.

 

[Esdra]

No, why?

Isn’t there free will? Yes, I know in John 16:13 it says: “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.” But doesn’t a human still have his free will? So he can choose, if he follows the guidance of the HS, or hpersue is own ways, or even listen to the Devil who is the Master of Lies!
Do you really think bishops, cardinals, well, even popes, down to priests always listened? No, I don’t!

 

[Stephen168]

I really like to help our friend, BYUChemAlum, here in this respect: The “Great Apostasy” has no date, as there never WAS a date where it occured. “The Great Apostasy” is a process.
From that point of view, I can understand the LDSs pretty well. :yup:

Actually, this also has been my belief for a long time. In the meantime I am not so sure anymore… Since being here at CAF.

To take this back to the proper thread:

Mormons believe they have the keys and priesthood authority to make changes. They have made changes as extreme as change ‘who God is’ and ‘what is required for salvation.’ It took Joseph Smith five years to get around inventing Mormon Apostles, yet he had claimed for those years he had the keys and authority.
So reason would tell us that the Mormon claim that doctrine changing in the early church is an indication of apostasy is not true; Mormons have changed doctrine.
Mormons claiming that only an Apostle can have authority is not true; they claimed authority without apostles.
All you really need is ‘authority’ and you can do whatever you want. So out of nowhere Joseph Smith took the restorationist idea of a great apostasy and claimed he had authority.
The problem with this claim of an apostasy is Mormons don’t think about what it would really take for their own church to lose priesthood authority.

 

[Esdra]

No, she isn’t! But taking together the mistakes of all more important and lower clergy man, don’t you think a “Great Apostasy” could occur by time?
Sorry, I updated my previous post, have you read the new things?

Oh, I am not LDS, if you think that!

 

[Esdra]

Yeah, well remembered!

I think everyone could and can be guided by the Holy Spirit when preaching the gospel orally.

But what I wanted to say: You all seem to forget that the PEOPLE are making up the Church.
Without people, no Catholic Church, you see?
And people could and can error. And they certainly did also in the past. Poor Jesus can’t help there. He can and does send the HS, but he can’t help if people don’t listen to it!
In this light, an Apostasy is quite possible furthermore considering a 2000 year long history of Christianity.
And why shouldn’t the HS guide people, whether they are the Reformators or even JS ('though I don’t believe him to be guided by the HS), to “restore” the original teaching?

 

[hosemonkey]

Exactly correct. Jesus Christ Himself promised us the guidance and protection of the Holy Ghost. That means that in spite of the errors and mistakes and even the veniality of men, that that the Church would not go astray. Any claim by mormons or anyone else that the Church fell into apostasy is simply false and a direct challenge to Christ’s promise, in short, blasphemy.

 

[Esdra]

Oh the Jews DID err in their history! Ever read the Old Testament?
How often have the Jews gone astray? By worshipping idols and doing other abominable things in the sight of YHW?!
Why do you think YHW sent prophets? Why did He even punish His own people, if everything was OK?
I really can’t believe that the Catholic Church was any better in its history!
There certainly were also phases where it did go astray.
And I also don’t think that the Reformators acted without a reason… Neither did St. Francis of Assissi (as I have read a short comment on him here in CAF that he also protested against the Church. 'Though i am not familiar with this legend in depths.).

 

[hosemonkey]

Oh the Jews DID err in their history! Ever read the Old Testament?

How often have the Jews gone astray? By worshipping idols and doing other abominable things in the sight of YHW?!
Why do you think YHW sent prophets? Why did He even punish His own people, if everything was OK?
I really can’t believe that the Catholic Church was any better in its history!
There certainly were also phases where it did go astray.
And I also don’t think that the Reformators acted without a reason… Neither did St. Francis of Assissi (as I have read a short comment on him here in CAF that he also protested against the Church. 'Though i am not familiar with this legend in depths.)

You did not read the previous post with understanding. It stated that men went astray, but the teaching of the Church did not. Luther’s original intent was to correct the errors that had crept into Church practices, not to attempt to destroy the Church. He lost control of his original intent, due to his own failings and the agendas of other outside forces. He was not originally attacking Church teachings, but Church PRACTICES. Big difference. We know that the Reformation was more about temporal power and ego than it was about theology, in the end.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yeah, well remembered!

I think everyone could and can be guided by the Holy Spirit when preaching the gospel orally.

But what I wanted to say: You all seem to forget that the PEOPLE are making up the Church.
Without people, no Catholic Church, you see?
And people could and can error. And they certainly did also in the past. Poor Jesus can’t help there. He can and does send the HS, but he can’t help if people don’t listen to it!
In this light, an Apostasy is quite possible furthermore considering a 2000 year long history of Christianity.
And why shouldn’t the HS guide people, whether they are the Reformators or even JS ('though I don’t believe him to be guided by the HS), to “restore” the original teaching?

Esdra, Catholic understanding of Church is more than a social get together of people who think like minded. Correctly understood, the Church is the Kingdom of God on earth. To say it would fail, or go into “apostasy” is to say the Kingdom of God itself failed or went into apostasy. Can you see how this would not be possible? It would be the same as saying Heaven itself could possibly fail or fall into apostasy. It defies all logic.

Peace.

 

[stephe1987]

I have some problems with Mormonism:

1. They keep talking about some “great apostasy” but there is no historical evidence that this occurred. We have church writings that date back to the second century, and the gospels were written in the first century. (Read The Case for Christ and The Case for the Real Jesus for specifics). The New Testament has been preserved with 99.5% accuracy, which is remarkable for something that is 2,000 years old. If there was an apostasy, we would be able to see it. I hear that an apostasy is “possible” from all sorts of people, but where is the evidence that it actually happened?
2. Where is this evidence that tribe of people existed? Archaelogists keep digging up more and more evidence that supports the Bible and the people, places, and events that it describes. Sadly,despite their best efforts, no evidence has been found that supports the Book of Mormon and the events or people it describes.
3. Where in the Bible does it talk about Joseph Smith? Surely, if such an apostasy were going to take place, Jesus or someone would have said something.
4. Why did it take so long for Jesus to restore the church? The apostasy is dated at 70A.D. according to the timeline at mormon.org. Shouldn’t Jesus have sent Joseph Smith in 70A.D. so the gates of hell would not prevail, and said apostasy could have been prevented? Why didn’t God protect his people like he promised? And he waited ~1750 years to help his people?
5. Doesn’t it seem strange to you that only Joseph Smith saw the golden plates, and prior to “discovering” the plates he and his father were obsessed with finding Captain Kidd’s gold? How credible is Joseph Smith?

I am not anti-Mormon. Mormons are good people. Many of them are dedicated to their faith and donate money to the church, which goes toward helping others. But they have some beliefs that I do not think are supported in reality…

 

[SteveVH]

Yeah, well remembered!

I think everyone could and can be guided by the Holy Spirit when preaching the gospel orally.

But what I wanted to say: You all seem to forget that the PEOPLE are making up the Church.
Without people, no Catholic Church, you see?
And people could and can error. And they certainly did also in the past. Poor Jesus can’t help there. He can and does send the HS, but he can’t help if people don’t listen to it!
In this light, an Apostasy is quite possible furthermore considering a 2000 year long history of Christianity.
And why shouldn’t the HS guide people, whether they are the Reformators or even JS ('though I don’t believe him to be guided by the HS), to “restore” the original teaching?

I agree completely with Rebecca on this. Yes, the Church is made up of people, but more importantly it has Christ as its head. It is His Church, that is why it cannot fail. As Rebecca said, the Church is the Kingdom of God. He established the “new and everlasting covenant”. It simply cannot fail, unless God can fail. No human can destroy it, either from without or from within.

 

[hosemonkey]

I have some problems with Mormonism:

I am not anti-Mormon. Mormons are good people. Many of them are dedicated to their faith and donate money to the church, which goes toward helping others. But they have some beliefs that I do not think are supported in reality…

No one is saying that mormons are bad people. mormons are a deceived, deluded people. mormons are a people who depend on their invented religion for much of their support structure ie: friends, jobs, social status, community approval and education. If this close-knit structure is threatened, chaos ensues. They fear this more than exposure to the actual truth of their belief system or the truth of it’s origins. There is also a fortress mentality in place, in which any attack on the veracity or theology of their “religion” stems from the influence of Satan or malicious falsehoods spread by disaffected former members. To say that some mormon beliefs are “not supported in reality” is putting it in the mildest possible form. The mormon “church” has spent millions in trying to find even a scrap of evidence for the fairy tales in the BOM, to no avail. No cureloms, no piles of bones, no steel weapons, no Hebrew indians, no concrete temples…nothing. Just some “Gold” plates that nobody but Joe Smith ever saw. Doesn’t it kinda make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

 

[pablope]

I have some problems with Mormonism:

1. They keep talking about some “great apostasy” but there is no historical evidence that this occurred. We have church writings that date back to the second century, and the gospels were written in the first century. (Read The Case for Christ and The Case for the Real Jesus for specifics). The New Testament has been preserved with 99.5% accuracy, which is remarkable for something that is 2,000 years old. If there was an apostasy, we would be able to see it. I hear that an apostasy is “possible” from all sorts of people, but where is the evidence that it actually happened?
2. Where is this evidence that tribe of people existed? Archaelogists keep digging up more and more evidence that supports the Bible and the people, places, and events that it describes. Sadly,despite their best efforts, no evidence has been found that supports the Book of Mormon and the events or people it describes.
3. Where in the Bible does it talk about Joseph Smith? Surely, if such an apostasy were going to take place, Jesus or someone would have said something.
4. Why did it take so long for Jesus to restore the church? The apostasy is dated at 70A.D. according to the timeline at mormon.org. Shouldn’t Jesus have sent Joseph Smith in 70A.D. so the gates of hell would not prevail, and said apostasy could have been prevented? Why didn’t God protect his people like he promised? And he waited ~1750 years to help his people?
5. Doesn’t it seem strange to you that only Joseph Smith saw the golden plates, and prior to “discovering” the plates he and his father were obsessed with finding Captain Kidd’s gold? How credible is Joseph Smith?

I am not anti-Mormon. Mormons are good people. Many of them are dedicated to their faith and donate money to the church, which goes toward helping others. But they have some beliefs that I do not think are supported in reality…

Here is short video about Mormon beliefs…

youtube.com/watch?v=jFZ1jVO3-OE&feature=related

Interesting that this claims Joseph Smith is a direct descendent from Jesus?

 

[ParkerD]

I have some problems with Mormonism:

…
I am not anti-Mormon. Mormons are good people. Many of them are dedicated to their faith and donate money to the church, which goes toward helping others. But they have some beliefs that I do not think are supported in reality…

Stephe1987,

Your questions have been answered many times during conversations on various threads, and are also answered in other places on the internet.

But since you are seeking to be an educated person, that shows you are familiar with test-taking, I assume. You would also be familiar with the idea that a teacher prepares the test for the students…

Perhaps you are familiar with the idea of “free will and choice”.

The Mormons believe this life is a test of the exercise of “free will and choice”, and that God administers this test perfectly–absolutely perfectly, with no hitches, no cheating, no chance that something can go wrong in the outcome of the test, or someone can be living the commandments for the wrong motives and never be “found out”. It will eventually be “found out” if they are living the commandments for the wrong motives. (One can see all sorts of motives in how people look at the Mormon church, as evidenced in this thread.)

The commandment to practice plural marriage, given for a period of time and then withdrawn, was a test of faith and a test of motives. It was a tough test of faith for several people, as would be expected by people in our shoes today–it was against everything they had all been taught. Then there was another test of faith for some people when the practice was removed, the test being whether they were willing to follow the prophet of God on the earth or not.

As far as God’s test of people’s faith and motives for keeping the commandments, since He is the perfect test-Giver then we all can rest assured that He is giving the perfect test as to the “free will and choice” exercise of heartfelt motives by every person on earth who has ever lived.

If you think about the exercise of “free will and choice”, and then think about whether a set-up where the religion of choice for people was obligatory based on historical “facts” or archeology or “traditions” or so forth, but then allow yourself to think that God can indeed create the conditions wherein the test of this life will have been a perfect test of faith and motives, then perhaps some of your questions will have a less clear answer in your thinking than the answer you seem to have that “some beliefs are not supported in reality.”

If beliefs are all supported in “reality”, meaning the Holy Ghost no longer needs to be involved in testifying to the soul of the person that the reality of the life and atonement of Jesus Christ is the central message of salvation and that repentance through the atonement is absolutely what this life is all about, leading to peace among men and personal peace for every soul who repents with pure motives–then beliefs can go in many directions because there will always be religious beliefs that for one person’s “reality” another person will totally disagree.

The Old Testament shows over and over that the house of Israel was warned and warned again about following the “false gods” of their neighboring peoples. Then they were told by God that they had done exactly that. Yet they had “proofs” in their history and in what they carried with them (the ark of the covenant, for example). What they lacked was that they were more interested in following the traditions that became so ingrained that the Pharisees had an automatic response to someone teaching about repentance coming among them–whether John the Baptist or Christ Himself. They were insistent that their religious traditions could not possibly be wrong.

“Not possibly be wrong” removes the “perfect test” situation, because then people are acting out of obligation rather than out of the deepest motives, desires, and faith that are in their heart and reflected in the choices they make during the course of their lives.

Again, God is the absolutely perfect test-Giver–and here we are. Happy test-taking to you!

Peace, and happy studying. Have a good day.

 

[hosemonkey]

Stephe1987,

Your questions have been answered many times during conversations on various threads, and are also answered in other places on the internet.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Stephe1987,

You would also be familiar with the idea that a teacher prepares the test for the students…

Perhaps you are familiar with the idea of “free will and choice”.

First Parker, I want to say that if this is all about God having us take a test then we failed in the Garden of Eden. We flunked out already, - F-test over. Now what?

Take it over? I see a Crucifix here, I see Jesus on it and I see Him beyond it.

I** must admit, It bothers me **Parker when you speak about this life as being a test.

When I walked out the door at sixteen years old to hitchhike around the country and jump freight trains it was not arranged by my father to test me. He did not drop me off onto the freeway to start my free will journey
.
As a matter of fact he told me not to go. But I went anyway.

The only reason I see us all in this word in this way is not because we are being tested in order to prove ourselves worthy, its because as mankind as whole we left the grace of God behind in order to find something better for ourselves.

No, this life is all about the inner desire to return to God our Father, never to leave again. Its about getting back to a garden, choosing to get back because we know how much we are loved in spite of our sinful nature because Christ, Gods only Son shows us this great love by being nailed to a Cross in order to take the punishment we all deserve. This is the test, this is all about love. When you get off the train, when you get off the road in order to return heaven can be found on earth. The Mass

 

[flyonthewall]

First Parker, I want to say that if this is all about God having us take a test then we failed in the Garden of Eden. We flunked out already, - F-test over. Now what?

So are all the tests you have ever taken pass or fail? One wrong answer and you fail the test? Do you take your tests in pen or pencil?

Take it over? I see a Crucifix here, I see Jesus on it and I see Him beyond it.

There is no taking the test over…it is life long. To further the analogy, it is an open book, open neighbor, ask the teacher anything test. We are given a pencil with an eraser to change our “answers” when we discover the right one.

I** must admit, It bothers me **Parker when you speak about this life as being a test.

Why?

When I walked out the door at sixteen years old to hitchhike around the country and jump freight trains it was not arranged by my father to test me. He did not drop me off onto the freeway to start my free will journey
.
As a matter of fact he told me not to go. But I went anyway.

The only reason I see us all in this word in this way is not because we are being tested in order to prove ourselves worthy, its because as mankind as whole we left the grace of God behind in order to find something better for ourselves.

No, this life is all about the inner desire to return to God our Father, never to leave again. Its about getting back to a garden, choosing to get back because we know how much we are loved in spite of our sinful nature because Christ, Gods only Son shows us this great love by being nailed to a Cross in order to take the punishment we all deserve. This is the test, this is all about love. When you get off the train, when you get off the road in order to return heaven can be found on earth. The MassYou are correct in that this life is all about our desire to return to God, and the way to do that is found in His commandments and teachings. We are put here to see if we will follow the commandments. Not only is this a “test”, but it is also about becoming. What type of person will we become in this life? We are faced with trials and temptations here and the type of person we become is based on how we act and react to them.

 

[hosemonkey]

Yet another dissertation by a mormon that does not address the assertions by posters that the founder of mormonism was a dubious character. The title of this thread is “mormons and polygamy” and question the character and "martyrdom " of Joseph Smith. The facts of Joseph Smith’s life and death are known, yet the mormon organization continues to whitewash and “airbrush” his questionable history and that of his successors. That it is necessary to bowlderize history raises questions and a “church” that finds it necessary to so revise it’s history and that of it’s founder certainly brings the truth of it’s account in to question. Joseph Smith was a blatant con-man and certainly no martyr.