Mormans and polygamy

[KathleenGee]

I have been primarily a housewife, and headed a lay branch of a religious institute…I was invited into professional ministry in my diocese. The priest appointed was put in by Cardinal Levada who is now one of the top prelates for the Catholic faith. The priest was put in to correct errors in Catholicism being promoted by lay professional ministers.

So we reviewed the actual Church documents, and I went parttime for over 5 years. We never studied interpretative materials but the actual documents.

The course that I found my need for correct understanding was the Nature and Mission of the Church.

The Church is founded on Jesus Christ, and is drawing its life from Jesus Christ. The Church is guided to properly interpreted Sacred Scripture – Catholics understanding the whole of text of Salvation History rather than drawing too many assumptions on single phrases of Scripture or paragraphs or a book to create a new church belief.

Sacred Scripture has many levels. But it is the Holy Spirit that sustains the Church insuring the proper interpretation of the Living Word of God according to the Oral Tradition given us directly by His actual witnesses, His apostles.

It is one thing to read about Christ vs one who was chosen to directly accompany Him, witness Him, and be personally taught by Him…a direct witness. So our faith is not based on the interpretation of one man who never witnessed Christ who is beginning a reformation or a new church when it separates from the lifeblood of Jesus Christ found in the Church.

This insuring of correct interpretation through the power of the Holy Spirit is called Tradition. Tradition is the Holy Spirit leading the Church to properly interpret and integrate the Word of God with life. The Catholic understanding of Christ reaffirms that He is King, because His teachings overcome and transcend the reality of this world.

The proper understanding of God should not alienate us from ourselves, the life around us to then make us be overwhelmed or disconnected…as Jesus gave us new life in abundance…and our understanding of Scripture should cause us to identify with the human experience and dignity of all human beings and creeds that do not violate Christ and the Decalogue.

The primary church is the Bride of Christ, His believers, united through His shepherds and centralized in His vicar, the Holy Father…The Holy Father is the sign of unity of all believers, who as I said, all ecclesiastics are responsible for the welfare of all people under their care. The Holy Father prays for the entire world. The bishop prays for all people living within his diocese, a pastor his designated parish.

So we recognize the presence of Christ in all human beings Who waits at the door fo every heart…that what one does to one’s neighbor is done as well to Christ.

A believer in the Catholic Church represents the Catholic Church. If you have only one Catholic who affirms the Creed and communion of faith in Spokane, Washington, one can truly say the Catholic Church is exists and is present in Spokane, Washington even if one Catholic is there.

The local diocese is the local Church. The bishop oversees the welfare of his people. He represents the faith to the Holy Father. He cares for the welfare of all souls entrusted to him within his boundary.

The superficial level is a church building.

So the true faith exists in the heart…one remaining individual in one diocese in effects validates the existence of the Church in that diocese, even without a bishop…

So we may go to Mass based on the faith in Christ…and it doesn’t matter if there are other people there are not, or we talk to them or not. The parish does exist without people even knowing each other…so if you see very social parishes it is the reflection of the type of people in there…you can almost say a parish is more extrovert or another, more introvert.

So a Church gathering does not require social gathering other than coming to gether publicly…not for ourselves, but to affirm our faith to the world --any one can enter into a church to witness the Mass --…to affirm our common faith in Jesus Christ.

Thus, the Catholic Church is essentially mystical. We may go to church as an assembly. We may not know each other. But when we come to worship, we are coming together…we may look like we are immobile in our pews…but it is the Holy Spirit carrying us together closer each day to heaven.

Thus the Mass is also indeed like a mystical carriage as well carrying us forward in the Lord.

 

[flyonthewall]

Yet another dissertation by a mormon that does not address the assertions by posters that the founder of mormonism was a dubious character. The title of this thread is “mormons and polygamy” and question the character and "martyrdom " of Joseph Smith. The facts of Joseph Smith’s life and death are known, yet the mormon organization continues to whitewash and “airbrush” his questionable history and that of his successors. That it is necessary to bowlderize history raises questions and a “church” that finds it necessary to so revise it’s history and that of it’s founder certainly brings the truth of it’s account in to question. Joseph Smith was a blatant con-man and certainly no martyr.

Yes, and the Jewish leaders that wanted Jesus crucified could make similar accusations about Him.
Jesus was no wine bibber, agent of satan, rebel rouser, treasonous malcontent or any thing else that was thrown at Him. Similarly, Joseph was none of your accusations either. I know better.
All your accusation have been refuted in the past. If all you look for is the negative, then that is all you will believe

 

[RebeccaJ]

Jesus was without sin.

Joseph Smith was not.

I think it important to point that out.

Peace.

 

[RebeccaJ]

More specifically, whatever crimes Jesus was accused of, we know He was innocent because He was without sin.

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has similarly been tested in every way, yet without sin.

1 Peter 2:22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”

Whatever crimes Smith is accused of, we can’t say he is innocent because he is without sin. So, we can reason using the evidence, and not rely on faith that Smith was without sin the same as Jesus, because we know, this is not possible.

Romans 3:23 all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, and the Jewish leaders that wanted Jesus crucified could make similar accusations about Him.
Jesus was no wine bibber, agent of satan, rebel rouser, treasonous malcontent or any thing else that was thrown at Him. Similarly, Joseph was none of your accusations either. I know better.
All your accusations have been refuted in the past. If all you look for is the negative, then that is all you will believe

Flyonthewall and other readers here,

Thanks for noting this.

I might as well add something else that should be obvious to any United States citizen:

The United States constitution was designed to protect personal freedoms of its citizens, including the right to a fair trial in a fair court of law, with representation.

When anyone seeks to disrupt or negate those rights by comments that make it seem that the mob actions against Joseph Smith were “lawful” or were in accordance with the United States constitution, then such a person making such a comment has trampled on the United States constitution, in my book. They are coming from a different place than Christianity or ethics or the idea of the protection of freedom and the principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty in a legitimate court of law where both sides are heard and a judge makes a judgement according to the laws voted upon by a lawful state legislature.

 

[ParkerD]

Jharek,

You have drawn a conclusion from my comment that was unwarranted. Let’s put it this way:
there is a “minimum standard” of ethics and ethical behavior, and then there is a “highest standard”, and the “highest standard” is a great reach upward from just the basic United States constitution. But at least that constitution outlined a minimum standard, and at least there are some people of divergent views who are able to live by and uphold that minimum standard.

I for one am grateful for that. I love my country and the freedoms I enjoy.

 

[hosemonkey]

Exactly. I think that Joseph Smith’s neighbors recognized him for the snake that he was and were not wont to wait for the slow wheels of the legal system to turn, and so thought that some frontier justice was in order. Not saying that I necessarily approve, but those were different times. Joseph Smith may have been denied man’s justice, but I think that he received God’s. mormons can dress it up all they like, but Joe Smith was no paragon of virtue and was no martyr.

 

[flyonthewall]

[No message]

 

[flyonthewall]

Exactly. I think that Joseph Smith’s neighbors recognized him for the snake that he was and were not wont to wait for the slow wheels of the legal system to turn, and so thought that some frontier justice was in order. Not saying that I necessarily approve, but those were different times. Joseph Smith may have been denied man’s justice, but I think that he received God’s. mormons can dress it up all they like, but Joe Smith was no paragon of virtue and was no martyr.

You recognize those were different times, only when you can use it to condemn…it goes both ways. There is nothing that Joseph did that was criminal, and had he not been murdered by a lawless mob, that would have been made known.
You may try to “dress it up” as negatively as possilbe, but that does not change that he was a prophet of God. He stands in good company with other prophets that were wrongly accused and murdered for their calling.

 

[KathleenGee]

The reality is his fraudulent ways were known to the surrounding people, he probably kept getting away with things, there were probably rumors, allegations and truths about his affairs with women.

There is a passage in the epistles about men who go about homes seducing silly women, another about not listening to an angel.

Smith was a divinizer…this is a form of witchcraft…witchcraft is on the same level of dissension…written in the Epistles…

The Lord would pick a prophet who has essentially a good reputation … may be one problem…but not a slew of misbehaviors, crimes, and most of all fraud.

A person who commits fraud cannot be a member of a religious institute. You can’t trust anything they say or do, and you always get the sense that what they tell you is not what they do behind you.

 

[hosemonkey]

The reality is his fraudulent ways were known to the surrounding people, he probably kept getting away with things, there were probably rumors, allegations and truths about his affairs with women.

There is a passage in the epistles about men who go about homes seducing silly women, another about not listening to an angel.

You are exactly right. The mormons know this, they just choose to desperately try to cover it up. The spinmeisters in Salt Lake City must preserve the image of good, pious misunderstood people, members of a misunderstood (really Christian) religion, founded by a misunderstood(martyred,even) “prophet”, who was the victim of redneck haters who failed to see what a serious man of God that he really was, and how concerned he was for the welfare of his fellow man. The mormons who post on this forum have been taken in by this masterful use of spin and obfuscation by the old men in Salt Lake City. Fortunately, most people see it for what it is.

 

[KathleenGee]

If anything, if there is a person who has a checkered past…the Church witnesses that person’s conversion to becoming a new creature and helping many people without profit.

There is one thing noticeable about the Catholic lives of the saints…they were maligned and misunderstood by fellow Catholics people in the Church or renounced everything…(the clerics turning down assignments at universities, etc.), to preach the gospel and suffer martyrdom. All underwent great suffering and experienced themselves as strangers in their own native lands.

 

[hosemonkey]

If anything, if there is a person who has a checkered past…the Church witnesses that person’s conversion to becoming a new creature and helping many people without profit.

There is one thing noticeable about the Catholic lives of the saints…they were maligned and misunderstood by fellow Catholics people in the Church or renounced everything…(the clerics turning down assignments at universities, etc.), to preach the gospel and suffer martyrdom. All underwent great suffering and experienced themselves as strangers in their own native lands.

Therein lies the difference between a true martyr and someone whose bad karma finally caught up with him.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

You recognize those were different times, only when you can use it to condemn…it goes both ways. There is nothing that Joseph did that was criminal, and had he not been murdered by a lawless mob, that would have been made known.
You may try to “dress it up” as negatively as possilbe, but that does not change that he was a prophet of God. He stands in good company with other prophets that were wrongly accused and murdered for their calling.

He stands in good company with Mohammad. See an interesting quote from Wikipedia, "Meanwhile, under Smith’s general oversight and command,[185] the Danites and other Mormon forces pillaged non-Mormon towns.[186] Before a cheering crowd of Saints, Smith declared that should there be non-Mormon attacks, Mormons would establish their “religion by the sword” and that he would be “a second Mohammed.”[187] "

Does this sound Christ-like? Moses? Peter? Paul? James? John? Mary? Sounds more like Kane killing Abel, the mobs who killed Jesus, or maybe Xerces or Genghis Khan.

Was Nauvoo like Sodom and Gomorrah with a hint of Mecca?

Also from Wikipedia, “In 1831, Smith taught that those who kept the laws of God had “no need to break the laws of the land.”[376] Nevertheless, beginning in the mid-1830s and into the 1840s, Smith taught that no earthly power could abridge his “religious privilege” to carry out what he believed to be God’s will.[377] He taught that God could command Mormons to kill or do any other thing, “no matter what it is” that “may be considered abominable to all who do not understand the order of heaven.”[378] This teaching perhaps explains why Smith felt justified in directing or permitting Mormon leaders to perform actions contrary to traditional ethical standards or in violation of criminal law.[379]”

This quote indicates that Smith did violate criminal law. Objectively, a person has committed a criminal act and is therefore a criminal if they violate a law of the political authority.

Care to rebut this?

I remember Zerinus previously stating that LDS has abolished practices that do not conform with the political authority’s law because they respect the law and want to maintain order. They do this even though they still hold a theological belief.

Yet, from above, it would seem that Smith professed the exact opposite.

 

[hosemonkey]

He stands in good company with Mohammad. See an interesting quote from Wikipedia, "Meanwhile, under Smith’s general oversight and command,[185] the Danites and other Mormon forces pillaged non-Mormon towns.[186] Before a cheering crowd of Saints, Smith declared that should there be non-Mormon attacks, Mormons would establish their “religion by the sword” and that he would be “a second Mohammed.”[187] "

Does this sound Christ-like? Moses? Peter? Paul? James? John? Mary? Sounds more like Kane killing Abel, the mobs who killed Jesus, or maybe Xerces or Genghis Khan.

I rest my case. Resolved: Joseph Smith was a criminal. Therefore mormonism was invented, not by a prophet and martyr, but by a criminal.

 

[KathleenGee]

Modern psychologists would call Smith a grandiose narcissistic personality.

If he is a killer, then psychopath. I think he fell between the two.

Yes, I do have the image of the elders of LDS in SLC working very hard to cover up the origins and past writings.

These origins and writings are a contradiction to the beginnings of Christianity, as well as how we define a saint. Many of the original people appear not to be able to fit in with other Christian churches…

 

[flyonthewall]

He stands in good company with Mohammad. See an interesting quote from Wikipedia, "Meanwhile, under Smith’s general oversight and command,[185] the Danites and other Mormon forces pillaged non-Mormon towns.[186] Before a cheering crowd of Saints, Smith declared that should there be non-Mormon attacks, Mormons would establish their “religion by the sword” and that he would be “a second Mohammed.”[187] "

Does this sound Christ-like? Moses? Peter? Paul? James? John? Mary? Sounds more like Kane killing Abel, the mobs who killed Jesus, or maybe Xerces or Genghis Khan.

Was Nauvoo like Sodom and Gomorrah with a hint of Mecca?

Also from Wikipedia, “In 1831, Smith taught that those who kept the laws of God had “no need to break the laws of the land.”[376] Nevertheless, beginning in the mid-1830s and into the 1840s, Smith taught that no earthly power could abridge his “religious privilege” to carry out what he believed to be God’s will.[377] He taught that God could command Mormons to kill or do any other thing, “no matter what it is” that “may be considered abominable to all who do not understand the order of heaven.”[378] This teaching perhaps explains why Smith felt justified in directing or permitting Mormon leaders to perform actions contrary to traditional ethical standards or in violation of criminal law.[379]”

This quote indicates that Smith did violate criminal law. Objectively, a person has committed a criminal act and is therefore a criminal if they violate a law of the political authority.

Care to rebut this?

Wikipedia cites the works of Michael D. Quinn, and his interpretation of data, for their post. Michael D. Quinn is suspect at best. Quotes taken out of context and woven together with other quotes taken out of context to fabricate falsehoods.
I can go to anti-Catholic sources to trash talk your church, but I choose not to.
Even the quotes you provide do not prove any criminal activity, as there is none.
All the above items that are cited are already addressed and refuted, and if you care for a rebuttal, I am sure you can find them…that is if you are really interested in truth.

I remember Zerinus previously stating that LDS has abolished practices that do not conform with the political authority’s law because they respect the law and want to maintain order. They do this even though they still hold a theological belief.

Yet, from above, it would seem that Smith professed the exact opposite.

If you are already seeking negativity, that is what you will latch on to. Perhaps it brings comfort.

 

[flyonthewall]

I rest my case. Resolved: Joseph Smith was a criminal. Therefore mormonism was invented, not by a prophet and martyr, but by a criminal.

I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale…I just know you would love it.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

I have some ocean front property in Arizona for sale…I just know you would love it.

You guys know your fraud! Smith was always looking for get rich quick schemes wasn’t he? Mr. Treasure Hunter.

This is a Judeo-Christian nation. Polygamy was never practiced here. In fact, there was no law against it until 1862, because no Christian would have ever condoned polygamy.

Be that as it may, Smith did commit crimes. Treason. Trespass, destroying private property, conversion, breaking and entering, resisting arrest,
"Mormon writer William E. Bennett admits that Smith’s criminal assault on the offices of a free press resulted in his ultimate undoing:

”’[The destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor] proved to be the spark which ignited all the smoldering fires of opposition into one great flame . . . The cry that the ‘freedom of the press’ was being violated, united the factions seeking the overthrow of the Saints as perhaps nothing else would have done.’ . . ."

After citing Bennett, author Richard Abanes further details the legal entanglements now closing fast around Smith:

“In response to Smith’s actions, those opposing the Mormon prophet filed a complaint against him in Hancock County, Illinois, claiming that Smith had violated the freedom of the press. Smith was arrested, but quickly tried in Nauvoo and released. The opposition immediately accused Smith of manipulating the law. Suddenly, the familiar thread of mob violence surrounded Nauvoo. Smith declared martial law . . . and put his troops on full alert.

“Illinois Governor Ford then stepped into the situation, demanding that Smith give himself up to be tried in Carthage, Illinois. But [Smith], along with his brother, Hyrum, decided instead to flee into Iowa. Once there, however, they began to have misgivings about running from the law.

“First, they had abandoned their flock, which produced in them a significant degree of guilt.

“Second, their presence in Iowa did not insure their safety since that territory’s governor had never agreed to ignore Missouri’s extradition order for Smith on [an] old charge of treason.

“Third, Smith’s departure had left the Saints with virtually no leadership since many of the loyal apostles were away on missions.

“Fourth, a messenger informed Smith that the Nauvoo Legion had divided between those who wanted to defend the city and those who wanted to flee.

“So back across the Mississippi both he and Hyrum journeyed, continuing on to Carthage, where they were placed in the town’s jailhouse.”

(Richard Abanes, One Nation Under Gods: A History of the Mormon Church[New York, New York: Four Walls Eight Windows, 2002], p. 198), emphasis added

---

Even the LDS -biased and -published Encyclopedia of Mormonism has been forced to admit that Smith’s illegal assault on the offices of a free press provided ample reason for his arrest:

[Smith’s prompt order to] the city marshal to destroy the press and burn all the copies of the paper . . . justified or not, played into the hands of the opposition. It riled anti-Mormon sentiment throughout Hancock County and provided substance for the charges used by the opposition to hold Joseph Smith in Carthage Jail, where he was murdered on June 27, 1844.”

(Reed C. Durham, Jr., “Nauvoo Expositor,” in Encyclopedia of Mormonism, vol. 3, p. 997), emphasis added

---

Indeed, the “substance” to which Mormonism’s Encyclopedia blandly refers was broadly outlined in the Nauvoo Expositor–that is, before Smith destroyed the press in a futile attempt to cover up the illegal and immoral acts of himself and his associates–and which was subsequently followed by the destruction of other private property owned by those who had published the newspaper. These acts of lawlessness quickly formed the legal justification for the arrest and imprisonment of Smith at Carthage:

”On June 7th, 1844, the first and only edition of the Nauvoo Expositor was published. This paper exposed polygamy and some of the other illegal activities of Church leaders. Smith ordered this printing press destroyed. He also ordered all copies of this newspaper to be confiscated and burned.

“The next day a mill and some other buildings belonging to the Laws, Higbees, Fosters, and others who printed the Nauvoo Expositor were also destroyed. These men and their families who dared to question Smith’s unlimited power were forced to flee Nauvoo for their lives! Smith and his outlaws were on a rampage.

“Soon after the Nauvoo Expositor incident, several warrants were issued by state and county authorities for the arrest of Joseph [and] Hyrum [Smith], and a number of other Church leaders. Charges included treason against the State of Illinois, polygamy, adultery, resisting arrest, destruction of property, and perjury.

“These new charges, in addition to . . . old Ohio and Missouri charges along with [an] outstanding warrant for high treason by the President of the United States certainly justify calling Smith an ‘outlaw.’ Unfortunately, Smith was turned into a martyr before he could stand trial for his crimes.”

(Arza Evans, The Keystone of Mormonism [St. George, Utah: Keystone Books, Inc., 2003], p. 162), emphasis added

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

Wikipedia cites the works of Michael D. Quinn, and his interpretation of data, for their post. Michael D. Quinn is suspect at best. Quotes taken out of context and woven together with other quotes taken out of context to fabricate falsehoods.
I can go to anti-Catholic sources to trash talk your church, but I choose not to.
Even the quotes you provide do not prove any criminal activity, as there is none.
All the above items that are cited are already addressed and refuted, and if you care for a rebuttal, I am sure you can find them…that is if you are really interested in truth.

If you are already seeking negativity, that is what you will latch on to. Perhaps it brings comfort.

You are upset about an inconsistency, I see.

My above posts demonstrate that Smith was a criminal. I have defined a criminal, the same way you have defined a martyr, and applied it to Joseph Smith. I have shown he is a criminal in the face of your unfounded and naive assertion that he was not. A criminal is he who violates the criminal laws of the political authority. Joseph Smith violated laws.

My only conclusion about Mormonism is that Joseph Smith was a criminal and did commit crimes. You say he is not a criminal. I say he is a criminal. 'That’s all. He acted in ways Jesus Christ and the Apostles and Christian Martyrs never would have acted. Smith knew he would die and decided to try to exact revenge and take down as many as he could as he fired six shots into the hall. This is not a Christian action.

Also, I would only say that Zerinus indicated that the modern LDS church is bound to follow the laws of the land. This is why they did away with polygamy even though it is still a theologically sound doctrine. Yet Smith apparently taught, “]t that those who kept the laws of God had “no need to break the laws of the land.”[376] Nevertheless, beginning in the mid-1830s and into the 1840s, Smith taught that no earthly power could abridge his “religious privilege” to carry out what he believed to be God’s will.[377] He taught that God could command Mormons to kill or do any other thing, “no matter what it is” that “may be considered abominable to all who do not understand the order of heaven.”[378] This teaching perhaps explains why Smith felt justified in directing or permitting Mormon leaders to perform actions contrary to traditional ethical standards or in violation of criminal law.[379]”