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RebeccaJ
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Yes.
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JeanMichel
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This is an interesting point you bring up about evidence. Without Peter the Church does not exist. I know this is off-topic, but this is important. Is there any historical evidence that Peter was ever in Rome? Before you go off speaking of the chair of Peter, the burial place of Peter, etc. Please just calmly research the topic. As for me and my wife, we left and never even did the research. It did not matter to us what she had said. We rest on faith, not what a historian says or what a book might print. Those things are irrelevant to our faith.Agreed, as long as we’re talking about Faith, and not doubt masked as “faith”, or, believing something for the sake of believing it and calling it “faith”.
The Catholic Church doesn’t ask us to do either of these things.
Yes, we have Faith in Jesus Christ and His Church, but we have evidence and experience that supports that Faith.
The Mormon view of a “great apostasy” is a conspiracy theory, not Faith. (That is my not so humble opinion.)
Many years ago I was touring the Vatican museum. I had hired a personal guide for me and my wife and we were having a delightful time. She was absolutely superb in her descriptions of everything. At one point in the tour she was talking about Peter and out came this statement, “there is not historical evidence that Peter was ever in Rome.” Our mouths dropped to the floor. I was flabbergasted. Please look it up and share.
What is important is that nothing is more important than faith. Seeing miracles is forgotten as is seen in the example of ancient Israel in the desert. Blessed are you Simon Barjona for flesh and blood have not revealed it to you, but my Father who is in Heaven. Jesus clearly stated that personal faith through the witness of God the Holy Spirit is the ultimate foundation upon which to build faith. Evidence, history, etc. are good, but nothing is better than when the Holy Ghost bears witness of truth; this witness is the very foundation of faith.
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RebeccaJ
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JeanMichel,
I see you have chosen to show your cards, as it were.
It doesn’t matter to me, at all, really. Peter was in Rome, it is in the Bible. Do I care if he died there? No. It is evident he held primacy, and was given primacy by Jesus. This is found in the Bible. Christian history supports a Roman primacy.
I was not discounting the witness of the Holy Spirit, what I’m saying is, I see no reason to believe God would witness something as truth while providing evidence to the contrary. Why would God keep His Church going, strong, with many miracles, Saints and it’s mere existence at all, and then appear to some guy and say there isn’t anything there worth for you to bother with?
Not to mention, why would Jesus Christ establish a Church He knew was going to fail, and fail very quickly? His Church, the means by which the world has heard the Gospels message, by which people have believed and been baptized. What was the point of establishing a Church if not for God to bring people to Salvation?
Reason and faith are not opposed. God created us as rational creatures. He doesn’t seek to trick us into believing something that goes against the very nature He created us with, and then say to us if we cannot, we lack faith.
Faith and reason go hand in hand. Faith without reason leads to things like suicide bombers. Reason without faith leads to atheism.
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SteveVH
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And based upon this faith of Peter, Jesus built a Church, an organized Church, as the pillar and foundation of truth. It is where we find the “witness of God the Holy Spirit”.
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KathleenGee
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I brought this up in RCIA, but yes, St. Peter’s bones were found to be under his altar in Rome…and yes, Scripture says he was in Rome.
There are alot of shady people at the Vatican…and I remember reading about John Paul II coming and being careful about who to trust.
These are the times of the Great Apostasy…the loss of faith.
Anyway, I am seeing Mormonism covering up more and more when it is public fact that Smith was very promiscuous.
There are alot of shady people at the Vatican…and I remember reading about John Paul II coming and being careful about who to trust.
These are the times of the Great Apostasy…the loss of faith.
Anyway, I am seeing Mormonism covering up more and more when it is public fact that Smith was very promiscuous.
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SteveVH
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God only knows who this personal “guide” was and what level of knowledge he or she possessed, not to mention the guide’s personal motivatons. Vatican guides do this for money and are not there for one’s spiritual edifiction. We know Peter was in Rome from scripture and outside sources. The real point is that it really doesn’t matter. The Church has chosen the Bishop of Rome as is its unifying leader based upon documented succession.
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KathleenGee
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I really do not understand how anyone would believe a tour guide over the Church.
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JeanMichel
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I wonder if you even read my post…“show my cards”? What exactly did I say about faith that is different from what you said? Please write it exactly and then tell me how I showed my cards?
It is so tiresome teaching children…I take it back; children learn far more easily taught. NOW, go back and read my entire post. Show, demonstrate how what we said is different. It is like you guys are automatons, see a statement and out spits another canned answer. No thought, no discussion, no interaction, just condemnation, judgement, and self-righteous indignation. Surely the Church can provide better participants than this. You would make a pope weep, excuse, you have made popes weep.
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JeanMichel
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Nothing have I ever said conflicts with the statements above, ever.
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JeanMichel
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Let’s be careful about our statements. Bones were found, it is our faith that tells us that the bones were Peter’s and no one else’s.
Yes there are shady people everywhere, even in the Vatican. My guide was a Vatican appointed guide of some merit.
The loss of faith has ever been the mire of the Christian life. The only point I made above in my post, is that Faith is so much more important than anything we might call “historical facts”.
As far as Mormonism goes where is the cover-up? And why make such allegations against another church? Is it verifiable or is it your opinion? If it is your opinion, please don’t share it on this forum unless you state it as such. This forum is representative of the Catholic Church; our words and actions should reflect the very best that the Church has to offer. If we find it is difficult to do so, repent, apologize, and try harder.
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JeanMichel
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Kathleen, did you do the research? When you make allegations of how important “facts” are and then “facts” don’t support some of our most crucial beliefs, what have you succeeded in doing? Apologetics is too important an activity to repeatedly make such gross errors. It is these type of errors that prevent others from easily joining the truth and causing problems for those in the Church to stay faithful. If you go back and read all my posts, the thing I try to teach is just stick to the truth of the Church, don’t attack the beliefs of others, but in teaching truth you allow the Holy Spirit to guide in due course and according to His Will for the individual. Christians are sources of peace in the world, we are supposed to bring people together through the acts of love that Christ taught us and many of the Saints demonstrated.
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SteveVH
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I’m truly sorry if I misunderstood you, JeanMichel. There are a lot people who believe that its just them and the Holy Spirit and that is all that matters. I’m only trying to stress the importance of our Church and that it is where we find our God and having a relationship with Him, means having a relationship with His Church. No offense was intended. Please accept my apology.
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SteveVH
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Have you ever read “The Bones of St. Peter”. I don’t remember the author, off hand, but it contains incredible evidence that these really are the bones of St. Peter burried under the Basillica. Anyway, it’s worth reading if you’re interested.
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JeanMichel
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There is peace between us. Our methods are different, but we speak from the same place.
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KathleenGee
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JeanMichael, you are coming into the latter part of my issues with Mormonism…you missed the whole context of my own experience.
Yes, history is most important when there are disputes…and it is a fairly big one for Christians to claim it is Christ’s will to practice polygamy…and Rebecca has shared some of the aberrations that can happen.
Yes, we do look at a religion’s origins, especially when its premise is to invalidate all of Christianity…and the background of characters who began Mormonism. Many of us here, as I told you before, appreciate the niceness and patriotism of our Mormon people.
The Mormons are here for a reason, and several of them are not all on the same page, so we are getting different perspectives as well as those who are wanting to disconnect from the past.
The problem comes up when they deny the origins and materials that better describe why they think the Roman Church is this or that, or that Christianity ceased practically at the beginning of Christianity.
It is then we do look to historical documents and the consistency of Catholic teaching. There is a great history of Christianity that spread out into Rome and the Middle East, that you cannot deny the credibility and sincerity and validity of the Christian faith be it Protestant or Catholic. The problem is Mormonism’s invalidation of Christianity and the ideas they carry instead.
It is a matter of integrity of faith. No one can judge a person’s soul, but we can judge a person’s fruits and consistent behavior throughout Christianity that bears the fruit of Jesus Christ that we can recognize.
Yes, history is most important when there are disputes…and it is a fairly big one for Christians to claim it is Christ’s will to practice polygamy…and Rebecca has shared some of the aberrations that can happen.
Yes, we do look at a religion’s origins, especially when its premise is to invalidate all of Christianity…and the background of characters who began Mormonism. Many of us here, as I told you before, appreciate the niceness and patriotism of our Mormon people.
The Mormons are here for a reason, and several of them are not all on the same page, so we are getting different perspectives as well as those who are wanting to disconnect from the past.
The problem comes up when they deny the origins and materials that better describe why they think the Roman Church is this or that, or that Christianity ceased practically at the beginning of Christianity.
It is then we do look to historical documents and the consistency of Catholic teaching. There is a great history of Christianity that spread out into Rome and the Middle East, that you cannot deny the credibility and sincerity and validity of the Christian faith be it Protestant or Catholic. The problem is Mormonism’s invalidation of Christianity and the ideas they carry instead.
It is a matter of integrity of faith. No one can judge a person’s soul, but we can judge a person’s fruits and consistent behavior throughout Christianity that bears the fruit of Jesus Christ that we can recognize.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Finally, we must separate factual documents and truths in creed from false or compromised information with its own agenda, and if people come here for facts or truths of faith, that is what CAF is here for.
The creed of Christianity began with the Apostles’ Creed – witnesses to Christ. The Holy Spirit through the Magesterium of the Church protected and insured the passing on of faith to future generations.
The Mormons do not believe the Holy Spirit is in the Catholic Church and that true Christianity ended after the death of St. John.
The creed of Christianity began with the Apostles’ Creed – witnesses to Christ. The Holy Spirit through the Magesterium of the Church protected and insured the passing on of faith to future generations.
The Mormons do not believe the Holy Spirit is in the Catholic Church and that true Christianity ended after the death of St. John.
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CEM5
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Hello JeanMichel,
Peter wrote from “Babylon” (code name for Rome),
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13 The church that is in Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you. And so doth my son, Mark. 14 Salute one another with a holy kiss. Grace be to all you who are in Christ Jesus. Amen.
Quotes from Tertullian, c. 160 – c. 220 AD: (emphasis mine)
But if there be any (heresies) which are bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the Apostolic age, that they may thereby seem to have been handed down by the Apostles, because they existed in the time of the Apostles, we can say: Let them produce the original records of their churches; let them unfold the roll of their bishops, running down in due succession from the beginning in such a manner that (that first bishop of theirs), ed. note bishop shall be able to show for his ordainer and predecessor some one of the Apostles or of Apostolic men — a man, moreover, who continued stedfast with the Apostles. For this is the manner in which the Apostolic Churches transmit their registers: as the Church of Smyrna, which records that Polycarp was placed therein by John; as also the Church of Rome, which makes Clement to have been ordained in like manner by Peter.
Since, moreover, you are close upon Italy, ***you have Rome, from which there comes even into our own hands the very authority (of Apostles themselves). *How happy is its church, on which Apostles poured forth all their doctrine along with their blood! *** where Peter endures a passion like his Lord’s! *** where Paul wins his crown in a death like John’s! where the Apostle John was first plunged, unhurt, into boiling oil, and thence remitted to his island-exile! See what fellowship has had with even (our) churches in Africa! One Lord God does she acknowledge, the Creator of the universe, and Christ Jesus (born) of the Virgin Mary, the Son of God the Creator; and the Resurrection of the flesh; the law and the prophets she unites in one volume with the writings of evangelists and Apostles, from which she drinks in her faith. This she seals with the water (of baptism), arrays with the Holy Ghost, feeds with the Eucharist, cheers with martyrdom, and against such a discipline thus (maintained) she admits no gainsayer. [Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, trans. by Peter Holmes (Vol. III, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson; Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1951; p. 260), I, 36.]
And if a heretic wishes his confidence to rest upon a public record, the archives of the empire will speak, as would the stones of Jerusalem. We read the lives of the Caesars: *** At Rome ***Nero was the first who stained with blood the rising faith. Then is Peter girt by another, when he is made fast to the cross. Then does Paul obtain a birth suited to Roman citizenship, when in Rome he springs to life again ennobled by martyrdom. [Tertullian, op. cit. (p. 258), I, 32.]
Quote from Origen, (185-254 A.D.) in Eusebius, Church History III.1.
Peter appears to have preached in Pontus, Galatia, Bithynia, Cappadocia, and Asia to the Jews of the dispersion. *** And at last, having come to Rome, he was crucified head-downwards; for he had requested that he might suffer in this way**. What do we need to say concerning Paul, who preached the Gospel of Christ from Jerusalem to Illyricum, and afterwards suffered martyrdom in Rome under Nero?
History records that Peter was crucified upside down (that is why the upside down cross is the symbol of St Peter. )
Blessings,
CEM
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rainman10
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Some of the PEOPLE in the Church went astray, BUT NOT THE CHURCH ITSELF!!! There is a huge difference there, whether you want to admit that or not.
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ImChristian
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The LDS does not practice it and if you are a member and practice polygamy, see-ya, your excommunicated. The FLDS (another branch from Joseph Smith) still practices it and I think some other Fundamentalist groups. You can gurantee the LDS does not practice it but other branches do.
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