Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

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Rinnie,
Yes, indeed, we do. There will be PBS broadcasts of a Christmas presentation by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir through various channels this Christmas season, in the evenings. My family goes Christmas caroling in our neighborhood each year–delightful! We have several creches which we enjoy in our home during this season of the year. We also have a daughter we named Holli Marie who was born on Christmas day.

Merry Christmas, Rinnie, to you and your family.
A Christmas baby Parker! What a gift from God huh. Thats great. Oh yes how could I forget about the Choir. Its great. May you and your family have a wonderful and Blessed Christmas also Parker. Kiss Holli for me!

Father told me something wonderful I would like to share with you all. He said Christmas is not at the Mall! May we all find Christmas in our hearts and our Homes this year!

God’s blessings and the hope and Love and Peace that our dear Christ child brings to each and everyone.
 
I won’t be able to post for a few days…but after my contacts with the Mormons a few years ago, and they were very positive, I was reading up on Mormonism, having survived the particular ‘Pearl’ book.

There are things some Catholics have done out of context and so if this Pearl of Great Price was a deviancy, then so be it…but what is the Pearl of Great Price to the Mormons???

And there were initiation rituals performed by Mormon men that put the Catholic Church in an inimical position…I attended Mass at the Cathedral in Salt Lake City and noted the phrase taken from Scriptures to not listen to any angel…let them be anathema.

I was reading pronouncements and spirit of the Mormon church, and how it evolved over the years…and its leadership talks more like Catholics…but also giving me the impression they are in great competition with us…also the Catholics there go through alot with Mormons coming over to try to get them to leave our church and when they finally communicate they are not interested, the cozy neighbor sentiment is gone.
The Pearl of Great Price is one of the four standard scriptures along with the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. I have no idea what you were reading, but the Pearl of Great Price as scripture doesn’t say anything about the Whore of Babylon.
 
I am going to have to review all the posts here…

Well about the Mormon bookstore that I went to…it was about 4 blocks from the main tabernacle of my state!! I mean, the bookstore was right down the street from the Big Kahuna…and a beautiful one at that!. And the store is called Deseret…My bank is right next door. I am going there tomorrow and will look at the store name.

“Deseret” is an LDS affiliated book store.

However, the Pearl of Great Price does not say what you claim it does. the book is online, y’know…and searchable. the words you claim it uses do not appear anywhere in it. the 'first few pages" are the Book of Moses…and is a retelling of the creation story. There is not, and never HAS been, any mention of Catholicism, Roman…‘protestants’ or ‘whoredaughters’ in any part of the Pearl of Great Price.

I have NO idea what book you were reading, but the Pearl of Great Price simply isn’t it.
 
I won’t be able to post for a few days…but after my contacts with the Mormons a few years ago, and they were very positive, I was reading up on Mormonism, having survived the particular ‘Pearl’ book.

There are things some Catholics have done out of context and so if this Pearl of Great Price was a deviancy, then so be it…but what is the Pearl of Great Price to the Mormons???
the Pearl of Great Price, we believe, is scripture, just like the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. However, it is NOT the book you remember reading!

I was extremely curious about your charges, and did a search on the book (it is online…) to see if any of the words you use, or the concepts they represent, are in it. They aren’t. The Pearl of Great Price doesn’t deal with Catholics, Protestants–the subject doesn’t ever come up!

I will admit that I am very curious now; what on EARTH did you get your hands on? Because whatever it was, it sure wasn’t the PoGP. 😉

…and y’know…I have never heard that ANY LDS leader has EVER referred to Protestants as being the 'whoredaughters" of Catholicism. Trust me on this one, if any had, I would know about it–because something like that would have been unearthed and gleefully waved around in our faces by every anti-Mormon on the planet. CRI would be using it as an opening banner on their websight. the Lighthouse Ministry would have it starring on every other page. the “Maze of Mormonism” would have an entire chapter devoted to such a thing…

But…not a peep.

So while every nasty thing under the sun that can be said probably HAS been said by someone, at least that particular nasty thing hasn’t been said by leaders of the CoJCoLDS.

So far as I am aware, anyway. (come to think of it, if any leader would open his mouth and say something like that, it would have been Brigham Young; he had a problem with keeping his opinions stated in mild terms…but he didn’t say anything like that either.)

I got REALLY curious about this, and did some research on the terms. I found men like Dave Hunt, Bruce Renehan and something called “A Voice in the Wilderness - Canada” who use precisely those terms in describing Catholicism and her Protestant 'daughters," but nowhere in about 20 pages of searching did I find a reference to any MORMON using those terms, or those concepts.

So when you come back, I’d like you to do yourself a favor. Go here and look at the contents page of the Pearl of Great Price. Trust me, the table of contents isn’t going to bite you. See if it looks familiar. Then, if you feel brave enough, look at the ‘first few pages.’

What you will find there, in the Book of Moses, is the story of the creation of all things…and it is a story that will be pretty familiar to you. What you will NOT find is any reference to the 'Roman church" or the Catholic church, or any church at all.

Then see if you can remember the book you actually looked at. Did it look like this…at all?

The other thing that confuses me is this: where did you FIND this book in that store? And why, when you went back, do you claim that the store owners didn’t know what it was? Because as you know now, that book, being one of the “Standard Works” of the church, would be on the shelf with the Bibles, the Book of Mormons and the Doctrine and Covenants’…and would probably be bundled either with the Doctrine and Covenants or the Book of Mormon AND the Doctrine and Covenants. While you CAN find it as a ‘stand alone’ volume, most people don’t buy it that way; it’s a rather small book.

…and believe me, every single clerk in the store would know precisely what it was and where to find it!

You DO have my curiousity bump itching.

As far as the rest of you post, your knowledge of what our beliefs actually are seem to be on the same level as your knowledge of the PoGP.
 
Well, if it was, she still has a problem because THIS book doesn’t have anything in it about the Roman church, and ‘whoredaughters,’ either.
🤷 Could be she was at DB more than a few years ago, when they carried the McConkie and Nibley stuff. Back when it was a teaching of Mormonism, before y’all got all PC.
 
…and y’know…I have never heard that ANY LDS leader has EVER referred to Protestants as being the 'whoredaughters" of Catholicism. Trust me on this one, if any had, I would know about it–because something like that would have been unearthed and gleefully waved around in our faces by every anti-Mormon on the planet. CRI would be using it as an opening banner on their websight. the Lighthouse Ministry would have it starring on every other page. the “Maze of Mormonism” would have an entire chapter devoted to such a thing…
“The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansions of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell;” (Orson Pratt’s Works, p. 189-190)
 
…and y’know…I have never heard that ANY LDS leader has EVER referred to Protestants as being the 'whoredaughters" of Catholicism. Trust me on this one, if any had, I would know about it–because something like that would have been unearthed and gleefully waved around in our faces by every anti-Mormon on the planet. CRI would be using it as an opening banner on their websight. the Lighthouse Ministry would have it starring on every other page. the “Maze of Mormonism” would have an entire chapter devoted to such a thing…

But…not a peep.

So while every nasty thing under the sun that can be said probably HAS been said by someone, at least that particular nasty thing hasn’t been said by leaders of the CoJCoLDS.
“That reminds me of a conversation I had some years ago with some Protestants who were abusing the Catholics. I reminded them of the fact that they descended from them. They were calling the Catholic Church the Mother of Harlots. Well, said I, if that be true, she has brought forth a scurvy offspring. History certainly informs us that the Protestants came out from the Catholics, and therefore, if the Catholic Church is the mother, they certainly must be the daughters, and one would think there should be some affinity between them. It is not considered proper for persons to rail against their mother.” (“Journal of Discourses”, John Taylor, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, October 8, 1882.
Reported by John Irvine)
 
🤷 Could be she was at DB more than a few years ago, when they carried the McConkie and Nibley stuff. Back when it was a teaching of Mormonism, before y’all got all PC.
Rebecca,

C’mon.

If some LDS leader had written THAT stuff in a book, you know that it would be all over the place, right? Especially if somehow the church had made the author CHANGE it (the way McConkie was asked to revise some things in “Mormon Doctrine.”…and no, he didn’t say that sort of stuff before then, either).

We’d be hip deep in websites, pamphlets and books about how mean we were, with the quotes in blazing red fonts.

there aren’t any.

But there ARE exactly those words used by other people–some very fundamentalist 'non-denominational" Christian groups and leaders. Just google 'em. It’s enlightening in a way I didn’t want to be enlightened. 😉
 
“The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansions of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell;” (Orson Pratt’s Works, p. 189-190)
Orson Pratt?

Ok, you got me, he had a VERY loud mouth.

I don’t see that Orson Pratt’s stuff is printed in the Pearl of Great Price, though. 😉
 
Orson Pratt?

Ok, you got me, he had a VERY loud mouth.
Yes he did, that is one of milder things he had to say about Catholics.
I don’t see that Orson Pratt’s stuff is printed in the Pearl of Great Price, though. 😉
I think you and I both know the title picked up had the words “Pearl of Great Price” in them. Though not actually the Pearl of Great Price.
 
“That reminds me of a conversation I had some years ago with some Protestants who were abusing the Catholics. I reminded them of the fact that they descended from them. They were calling the Catholic Church the Mother of Harlots. Well, said I, if that be true, she has brought forth a scurvy offspring. History certainly informs us that the Protestants came out from the Catholics, and therefore, if the Catholic Church is the mother, they certainly must be the daughters, and one would think there should be some affinity between them. It is not considered proper for persons to rail against their mother.” (“Journal of Discourses”, John Taylor, Delivered in the Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, October 8, 1882.
Reported by John Irvine)
Why, that’s rather nice of him.

Or did you catch the part where he wasn’t calling the Catholic church the mother of Harlots, but was reminding the Protestants, who WHERE, that IF the Catholic church is the mother, then they are her children? That’s actually a rather inspired zap.

It’s not nice to criticize your mother, indeed. 😉
 
Yes he did, that is one of milder things he had to say about Catholics.

I think you and I both know the title picked up had the words “Pearl of Great Price” in them. Though not actually the Pearl of Great Price.
No, Rebecca, I don’t know that. I truly do not.
 
I’m not sure if some of the Catholic posters on this thread understand Mormon doctrine well enough to explain just how powerfully Matt 28:18-20 disproves the Great Apostasy. The most important thing to understand is that the priesthood, which was supposedly taken from the earth, is defined in Mormon doctrine as the authority of God to act in his name for the salvation of his children. While this is not quite the same as the Catholic understanding of priesthood (which entails the offering of sacrifice as its essential component), it does describe the commission of the Church in the last verses of Matthew.

When Christ says “all power is given to me,” it should be noted that “power” translates exousia, which means “authority.” It is the same word used in Matt 7:28: “For he taught them as one having authority exousia], and not as the scribes.” After claiming his authority, Jesus tells the Apostles, “Go you therefore,” that is, “on the basis of my authority” to “baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Because baptism is done in Christ’s name and is for the salvation of God’s children, the commission that Jesus gives here corresponds to the Mormon definition of priesthood. It is in the context of giving of that priesthood authority that he says , “I am with you all the days.” It must be noted in addition that this last sentence is an address to the whole Church. When Jesus speaks like this in the second person plural in Matthew, it is always an address to the Church; moreover “all the days even unto the end of the world” is a longer period of time than the Apostles will personally be present on earth, and “the world/age” here and elsewhere in Matthew refers to time on earth up to the last day. Christ is therefore present to his Church on earth as giver of priesthood authority continually until the end of the world.

The reason the Great Apostasy is wrong is not that it says Christians lost all contact with Christ, but because it says the priesthood was lost. That is enough to make it anti-Biblical, because the removal of the priesthood would place God in violation of his covenants with Abraham, David, all creation, and Christ himself. Before I explain why, let me explain a couple of categories that function in the interpretation of Biblical covenants. Covenant scholars tell us (and it’s not hard for a reader to see this for him or herself) that some Biblical covenants are conditional and some are not. That is to say God can present a covenant saying “I will bless you if you do such and such,” or he can make a covenant saying “I will bless you.” A convenient terminology that has been devised to describe this distinction is that the former are “treaty-type covenants” and the latter are “grant-type covenants.”

The relevance of this distinction can be seen from the fact that the entire argument of Romans depends on the premise that God’s covenant to bless all nations through Abraham’s seed is a grant-type covenant; God must therefore make good on his promise no matter what humanity does. God will do what he has sworn. The universal sinfulness of man, therefore, does not prevent salvation through grace. That is what Paul means when he writes “Let God be true though every man a liar.” This frequently misunderstood verse does not mean that God is more honest that man, but more specifically, that he fulfills his end of his covenant oaths regardless of human failings. Hence grace is essentially non-contingent, even when it is given to good people.

The Mormon claim that the priesthood was taken away from the earth because of human obstinacy treats the priesthood covenant as if it were a treaty-type covenant when in fact it is a grant-type covenant. This can be established from one of the strongest covenantal passages in the Bible. In Jer 33:14-26 when, right after prophesying the coming of Christ, Jeremiah writes that the perpetuity of the Levitical priesthood is as certain as his covenant with the sun and stars. Read it and see.

The density of covenantal typologies in that passage is too much for me to unpack in a short post. In brief, the passage alludes to three previous covenants: the covenant with creation (implied in Gen. 1 by the covenantal number of seven); the covenant with David to perpetuate his royal line (2 Kings 7); and the covenant with Abraham to multiply his seed. Read carefully, and you will see that all of these are grant-type covenants; there fulfillment is certain, and God promises equal certainty to the Levites in the perpetuation of their priestly line. The principle expressed in “Let God be true though every man a liar” applies to this text; it is, therefore, absolutely impossible for the priesthood to be taken away, fir it would involve God in covenant-breaking. More drastically, because Jesus is the heir of David who receives by rights the benefits of the Davidic covenant, it would convict God of breaking a covenant with his own Son.
Well…you just posted some interesting thoughts, Soren. I disagree with them, of course, on a visceral and faith based level, but you have just passed my ‘snappy comeback’ range and put me solidly into 'dang, I gotta go look that stuff up" level.

😉 I love when that happens!

Diana
 
Why, that’s rather nice of him.

Or did you catch the part where he wasn’t calling the Catholic church the mother of Harlots, but was reminding the Protestants, who WHERE, that IF the Catholic church is the mother, then they are her children? That’s actually a rather inspired zap.

It’s not nice to criticize your mother, indeed. 😉
I caught the usual Mormon passive aggressiveness.
 
"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.
- Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811
 
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Stephen168:
And your point in reposting my post here is…what, precisely?
 
And your point in reposting my post here is…what, precisely?
Just a guess, but I’m thinking he was looking for a followup response from you, since you indicated that you were going to “look stuff up” with regard to soren’s post. 🙂
 
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