Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

[dianaiad]

Just to be nosy , how does the Holy Spirit confirm the truth of whatever Scripture you are reading? Is this the “burning in the bosom” that I’ve heard about and does that occur with any Scripture one is praying about? How do you determine what is the witness of the Holy Spirit and what is simply your internal thoughts/wishes/imaginings?

(Please note that this is asked with all sincerity. No sarcasm/mocking etc.)

When the disciples walked with Jesus after His resurrection, and spoke with Him, they didn’t at first understand it was Him. After the conversation, and when they all knew Who they had been talking to, they talked about that experience, and "they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to use the scriptures? (Luke 24:32)

Now you know that these men were not talking about indigestion. They were talking about that almost indescribable confirmation of the Holy Spirit, that affirmation of…'this is right." that happens when an understanding of things religious (or something else important) just ‘clicks.’

this feeling, this…confirmation from the Holy Spirit, bears as much relation to ‘heartburn’ as a mother’s love bears to your boss’s pat on the back. It’s the ‘still small voice’ that comes AFTER, and instead of, the earthquake, the winds and the fire, in which the voice of the Lord may be heard. It is very real, very much UNLIKE anything physically wrong with one’s digestive system or tear ducts…

And words simply do not serve well to describe it.

But I can tell you this, you HAVE experienced it. If you honestly have a testimony that Jesus is the Christ, and you HAVE had answers to prayer, and you HAVE found something special in scriptures as you read, you have experienced it.

…and, while it may well be possible that you can describe it better than I do, you will find your own words as inadequate to describe that feeling of joy/affirmation/TRUTH as I do mine.

The problem, of course, is that while words are inadequate to describe it, they seem to be quite sufficient to mock and denigrate it. Especially when one is attempting to disparage another’s claim to it.

 

[Jay53]

When the disciples walked with Jesus after His resurrection, and spoke with Him, they didn’t at first understand it was Him. After the conversation, and when they all knew Who they had been talking to, they talked about that experience, and "they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to use the scriptures? (Luke 24:32)

Now you know that these men were not talking about indigestion. They were talking about that almost indescribable confirmation of the Holy Spirit, that affirmation of…'this is right." that happens when an understanding of things religious (or something else important) just ‘clicks.’

this feeling, this…confirmation from the Holy Spirit, bears as much relation to ‘heartburn’ as a mother’s love bears to your boss’s pat on the back. It’s the ‘still small voice’ that comes AFTER, and instead of, the earthquake, the winds and the fire, in which the voice of the Lord may be heard. It is very real, very much UNLIKE anything physically wrong with one’s digestive system or tear ducts…

And words simply do not serve well to describe it.

But I can tell you this, you HAVE experienced it. If you honestly have a testimony that Jesus is the Christ, and you HAVE had answers to prayer, and you HAVE found something special in scriptures as you read, you have experienced it.

…and, while it may well be possible that you can describe it better than I do, you will find your own words as inadequate to describe that feeling of joy/affirmation/TRUTH as I do mine.

The problem, of course, is that while words are inadequate to describe it, they seem to be quite sufficient to mock and denigrate it. Especially when one is attempting to disparage another’s claim to it.

Thank you, Diana. I HAVE experienced this, but I guess my confusion lies in that fact that my experience of this has been of and through the Catholic Church, through answered prayers, specifically an answered prayer by Jesus through a novena to St. Therese as well as through the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist. And you are right - it is the most awesome feeling in the world and words are inadequate to describe it.

I just don’t understand how the Holy Spirit would give an affirmation of two conflicting interpretations of Scripture to two different people. Or, as I asked someone else at one time, what about Muslims who say they have experienced an affirmation from God of the truth of Islam? They certainly believe that their “witness” is real and from God. Given the doctrines of Islam and its denial of Jesus’ Divinity, I would have to say that their “witness” has been misinterpreted. How does one determine what is from God and what is “wishful thinking” (for lack of a better term) that something is true.

If the Book of Mormon is true, as you say, then am I to believe that I have misinterpreted all of my experiences of faith and my belief that Holy Spirit has been guiding me? What about all of the joy and peace that I experience through Reconciliation and Eucharistic Adoration - am I deluding myself into believing that God has confirmed His Truth to me in these ways? What about St. Padre Pio who actually received the stigmata? How could he receive a false witness to the Truth in such a monumental way?

Thank you for your responses.

 

[KathleenGee]

I haven’t been able to get the time to start at the beginning of this thread…

I came to a Deseret book store to learn about Mormonism…I liked the health professional I worked with, a devout Mormon. I saw this book entitled the Pearl of Great Price, and was drawn to it because I love Scriptural spirituality, and would like to do a comparative on how members of his faith relate and respond to Christ and His kingdom…

I do not recall the author…I know the McConkie did not write this book…I know he has written anti-Catholic material…reading only a paragraph or two and getting on with my life.

What I read in this book were the comments shared by Rebecca. I called SLC…they knew nothing of it…it was the Deseret book store a few blocks from their main temple of the state. I told SLC where I found the book. Two weeks later I went back and it was gone off the shelf.

I also read the thread on Catholics and tithing that Dianid referenced and it said nothing about the Church dictating to us that we have to tithe…tithing was mentioned twice in the Old Testament.

To have such a strange doctrine and story about Maroni, the angel, the glasses, Smith’s own practices of divinity, his sexual philandering, a polygamist and his charlatan behavior, in all honesty, I don’t see the constitution of a founder of the new church. Joseph Smith completely contradicts the behavior of our apostles, the church fathers and bishops. His message contradicts the Oral tradition of Jesus Christ given to His apostles, passed down to the Church Fathers, and the bishops…it is just too far out.

And if early leaders were speaking so terribly against Catholics and protestants, it is no wonder they got whacked by people…just the stories and the leaders themselves were terribly upsetting to people who for 1800 years have been taught to value chastity and continence and fidelity to one spouse, to not listen to an angel with a different story.

Masonry is condemned by the Catholic Church. Masonry has actively solicited all the rich and powerful of society, and the average man who joins is used like a front man on the first two levels. But after that, the Masons have their agenda…and to use pagan symbols…

Our church is the fulfillment of Jewish liturgy, the image of the altar of stone going back to Abraham, to Saul…the symbols in our churches are those from Scripture and the commuion of saints…art and beauty, not Masonry, a men’s club.

Jesus Christ is the final Word of the revelation of God…Jesus is Eternal Word…and all of us, men and women, share in His Kingship, His role as Prophet and Priest…by the extension of His life for others. There is no new revelation about God after Jesus Christ.

I read about the Atonement and that Mormons hold Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane as the great apex of His work…He had not fulfilled His mission until He died on the cross and rose from the dead and laid His sacraments…the sacrament of Reconciliation by giving the Apostles power to forgive sins…this on the evening of the Resurrection…

Catholicism is concrete…the 7 sacraments, the institution of the Church…it is concrete, non-arbitrary. We have passed through many hard times…we have had those who fail…but that does not mean the Church itself has failed.

Our liturgy goes back 2,000 years. It is the fulfillment of the Jewish liturgy. We have the greatest library in the world, have done more for humanity than any other organization in the construction of cathedrals, schools, universities, hospitals, art and culture, music, science, and other disciplines. We are a kingdom of our own but not of this world.

I have no problem opening the Pearl that you have because I am still interested in learning Mormon spirituality, and as I have said before, the Mormons I have met are very nice and loving. There is a great world out there the Mormons don’t know that our faith has to offer as well, as well as understanding the Sacred Tradition.

In understanding Scripture, you have to take the author’s intent, the message, and in the same Holy Spirit of ancient times as is today, being especially attentive to the Whole of Scripture, not fractured bits and pieces that cause many to leave and form their own communities. We read the Bible in content and unity in light of the whole church of Sacred Tradition, which is --the Oral tradition passed from Jesus to the apostles to the Church Fathers and to the bishops who are the successors of the apostles.

We must be attentive to the anaolgy of faith-- that is the cohence of faith and in the whole plan of Revelation. There are the senses of Scripture --literal, spiritual, allegorical, the moral sense…angogical – the sense of eternal significance…we have the difficulties of languages— Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek…we have the inculturation of the universal faith into all races and peoples of the world…their expression both the same creed and their unique contribution to the Body of Christ…

So when someone comes out with a different doctrine, invalidates the Sacred Tradition that has been passed on for 2,000 years of Who Jesus is, His mission, His call, the foundation of His church, His sacraments – visible signs to us that contain the presence of God, our teachings of the catechism that are the same today as 2000 years ago…the communion of saints you must expect people to react the way they do.

I am sorry if I have offended you, but I have been offended many times through out my life as a Catholic, and I don’t want anyone to be unjustly treated…

 

[Bataar]

You didn’t get it, I see. Tell me; who is the better choice to interpret the words of Paul? Or are his words somehow NOT a part of the NewTestament any more?

Come to think of it, he didn’t do a whole lot of scriptural commentary in his letters. A lot of lambasting…not a lot of scriptural commentary. That COULD be because he is actually WRITING scripture, not trying to interpret the writings of others.

So your question is, quite frankly, silly.

As for me, I read the scriptures, go to commentaries of all sorts of people (LDS and not) then, when I come to a meaning that seems right, I pray about it. The Holy Ghost will confirm the truth of whatever it is I am doing, or I go back to the drawing board, so to speak. (shrug) All scriptures are interpreted by means of study, thought and prayer.

Joseph Smith is a bit like Paul for us, y’know. He didn’t so much interpret scripture as he wrote it.

Since St. Paul is much, much closer to the source and is the source for a lot of scripture in the New Testament, his interpretation should be taken in much higher regard than someone who came about 1800+ years later. Take the Eucharist for example, St. Paul believes it is truly the body and blood of our Lord. 1 Corinthians 10: 17 tells us this. St. Paul himself says, “Be careful to observe [only] one Eucharist; for there is only one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup of union with his Blood, one altar of sacrifice, as [there is] one bishop with the presbyters and my fellow-servants the deacons.”

By making that statement he is interpreting the events/scripture of the Last Supper to show that the Eucharist is indeed Christ’s flesh and blood.

 

[Bataar]

Since the beginning of the church, it has combated many different heresies. From Arianism to Pelagianism, Gnosticism, etc. Despite the church trying to correct these errors, we still know of them. There are still documents from that time that gives us information on these heresies. Even the church has information on them. Why then, is there absolutely no document, or anything that show the early church practicing what Mormons claim to be true? Is there any document from the time of the Apostles that show that they believed God the Father was once a human? Anything?

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes I have heard and read Mormons refer to this burning within…as the sign of the Holy Spirit…and we have this…but we have the Sacrament of Confirmation…that confirms the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that comes at our baptism.

This passage also demonstrates how Christ wishes us to share our faith with others…in dialogue, sharing and relating.

We cannot base our faith knowledge, however, on feelings…they can be deceptive.

A woman shared last night that her most frustrating thing about God is that she can’t see Him…

But the Lord gave us His Son Who we can see…and Who in turn is the Face of God Himself…and Christ showed us that God is our Father…Christ suffered for us…and this is the sign of love…that when we love, we suffer for them. And in turn for His life, death and resurrection,

Christ gave us baptism where we can see and feel the purifying presence of water, that when we enter a church, we bless ourselves with holy water remembering our baptism, He gave us the sacrament of His Eucharist, the manna of heaven, that we can see and taste and feel and eat…to make us extensions of Christ Himself.

We are given Confirmation as stated earlier…we are given actual sacraments of reconciliation and anointing – healing as you have in the laying of hands…we have the sacraments of vocation – Holy Orders or Matrimony…

All. these with the understanding of Sacred Scripture according to the entire content of Scripture…all parts connect to each other…fulfilled in Jesus Christ, Eternal Word…

Why do the Mormons not accept Christians…what did we do that made the Mormons separate from us and that they are now the Latter Day Saints???

We have the visible sacraments…no arbitration, no mental disputes, no verbal disputes. Concrete. The chaff is always with the wheat…those who persevere to the end shall be saved…

So again, what did the Catholic Church do or teach or behave that caused the Mormons not to only be separate from us and as well as the protestants but to begin a new denomination…

with different teachings and interpretations…Colossians being as gods…we will be judged and those admitted into eternal life will enjoy a new heaven and new earth all in praise of Jesus Christ Who will reign for ever and ever…

 

[KathleenGee]

I just read another reference to me about myself telling alot of people about the Pearl of Great Price…and that piece discussed…

Actually I did not tell alot of people…I called SLC, I shared it once with another person…and then brought it up here …yesterday… or day before…that is it.

And i did not bury the book in sand…I don’t think you got my imagery. I never bought the thing, but I did go back to look for it because the people said they didn’t know it. I wanted to recheck and somebody here did draw on quotes by men in the early days of the church.

Dianid, I think you are projecting things on me that aren’t true.

And I would like to know why you and Mormons aren’t accepting Catholics and Protestants and why you have to form a different church and call yourselves Latter Day Saints. What is the justification.

 

[catholic-rcia]

In a way, yes…but only in the way a collage is an original piece of art.

Who best to tell the meaning of scripture?

Why…the Holy Ghost, actually, trumps pretty much everybody.

Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His Church and said that He would be with it always, until the end of the Age. I was raised LDS as a child, I found His True church in Northern Utah many years into my life. I was baptized into the Holy Spirit. This is how I know the Church is true. I know this in my heart, mind and soul. It is more than I could have ever imaged, so much bigger than me. Because is all makes perfect sense. I don’t have to wrap my brain around things that my heart tell me are not true to please anyone else but Jesus Himself. I know the Church Jesus established is true becaues He is first in my life, not my wife, not my children, not the Pope. My wife would agree as Jesus is first in her life as well.
I now call Jesus my Lord and God. There is only One God and One Jesus who is One with the Father, he to being God. The love between them is the Holy Spirit. This love has been poured out through His Church to us, Gods creation. I have learned the difference between being Created and the Creator Himself .
I know nothing I can do will me to heaven as the only ladder I can see is the Cross.
love is presented On the Cross, the Tree of life. He offered no resistance.
The spirit has shown me that I am a sinner, that I have chosen many things over and above my God. The church constantly reminds me of this fact and provides me the tools necessary to battle it such as baptism, Confession, Eucharist, prayer, great examples of true humility. I know that it is Jesus who is loved by His Father, that in Jesus I get to have a share in this love but in the end it’s not about me, its all about Him. I am good with that
I know for a fact that these things are true, all Christians weather Catholic our not included.
I get up each morning a bit depresses with enough hope in my God to make this life exciting each and every day. I know that as a Catholic I my self am the Great Apostasy. I do not have to look at another to raise me a little more over and above even one of them. I know how and why I am saved.
I understand ego and pride and choose to give this up to Jesus. Being a Catholic is my life and my joy. As one from the LDS faith there is nothing your faith can offer me that I do not already have in Christ. I have given up my ego and my pride, up to Christ… He alone keeps it in check through the Sacraments of His Church.
www.utahmission.com

Jeremiah 31:33,34 ‘Afterwards, I will make this covenant [agreement] with the people from Israel,’ declares the *Lord. ‘My law will be in their hearts and minds. [That is, they will know God’s law. And they will love God’s law.] I myself will teach them my law. I will be their God, and they will be my people. Nobody will have to teach his neighbour. And nobody will have to say to his brother, “Know the *Lord.” Everyone will know me, whether they are important or not,’ declares the *Lord. ‘I will forgive their evil deeds. I will not continue to remember their *sins.’

 

[Stephen168]

As to my original question, I have seen nothing convincing as to any evidence that the “great apsostasy” ever occured and certainly no evidence that the LDS church has “restored” anything, but rather is a modern invention based upon scriptural misinterpretations and active imaginations. As I stated before, what really bothers me is the fact that it is being sold as the “restored” original. That brings in the dishonesty factor. I say this because I had a discussion with the local Mormon Bishop. He made a huge point of the LDS being a “restoration” rather than a reformation. When I asked him for even a shred of historical evidence for this he told me “I don’t study history, nor do I pay attention to it. I have the testimony of Joseph Smith.” The two Mormon missionaries who were with him could only stare at the table. It was the lamest excuse for a defense of one’s faith that I have ever witnessed - thus the reason I started this thread. I thought there has to be something more. I’ve certainly heard lame defenses by under-chatechized Catholics, but this was a Mormon Bishop. While I will say that the LDS members who have posted here have at least attempted to give a better explanation, I am saddened and amazed that the teenage girl who jumped into the LDS ship could fall for it. My only explanation is that a Mormon boyfriend is also part of the equation and that her decision is not based upon doctrinal issues, but rather immature infatuation with a boy.

I think in a way you have received your answer. I’ve only known one person to join the Mormon Church. When I asked him, what doctrinally attracted him to Mormonism; I never received an answer. He just talked about meeting lots of new people (contacts) and the Mormon welfare program. I would be curious about how many people choose Mormonism because of their history and doctrine.

 

[KathleenGee]

I am helping out at the RCIA…and going through the number of posts and threads on Catholic Answers, different people sharing different takes on the same points…I can see just how concrete our faith is.

This class focused on our faith as concrete, visible, no arbitration, and the meaning of suffering…why God allows suffering, how He answered that with Jesus dying for us as atonement for our sins, and that we in turn, when we love another person, we also suffer for that person…that suffering united with Christ brings great merit.

Catholicism is concrete with visible signs based on the witness of the Apostles, no arbitration of faith and morality. The big gap is understanding what went on the first 400 to 600 years of our faith and church, the times people lived in…the ongoing persecutions and the barbarian onslaught during the Dark Ages…

I see their references is based on what others have told them…The pupils of the apostles were entrusted-- entrusted in receiving the Oral Tradition and passing it on…not anything happening by random or whimsy.

Christ did not intend to do away with the priesthood or liturgy, but rather the sacrifices of animals…Jesus being the Paschal Lamb. Our priests go through many years of seminary studying metaphysics, social sciences. I have gone through my own trials as a Catholic, and each time an issue is resolved, it affirms more and more that the Catholic, universal faith is the true faith instituted by Jesus Christ, open to all.

The Catholic/orthodox priest fulfills the Levite priesthood of ancient times. Our entire way of life, the customs and signs are all professing Jesus Christ Eternal Word in countless forms. The Mass is a separate topic in itself.

 

[KathleenGee]

SteveVH,

You must be very thankful for the new life in Jesus Christ, nurtured by the sacraments…know your walk is just beginning and that you have a new world ahead of you to discover in the kingdom of Christ in the Church.

Only see the Church as one to nurture and guide you but not see it as an end in itself…know the communion of saints pray for you throughout eternity!

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally,

If you want to see how much Catholicism fulfills Judaism’s religion, when you are up to it, visit Hebrewcatholic.org and you will find out how much our roots go back to the Old Testament.

When converts come in, they can see we are the most Scriptural based church!

 

[courtiswa]

Yes I have heard and read Mormons refer to this burning within…as the sign of the Holy Spirit…and we have this…but we have the Sacrament of Confirmation…that confirms the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that comes at our baptism.

This passage also demonstrates how Christ wishes us to share our faith with others…in dialogue, sharing and relating.

We cannot base our faith knowledge, however, on feelings…they can be deceptive.

A woman shared last night that her most frustrating thing about God is that she can’t see Him…

But the Lord gave us His Son Who we can see…and Who in turn is the Face of God Himself…and Christ showed us that God is our Father…Christ suffered for us…and this is the sign of love…that when we love, we suffer for them. And in turn for His life, death and resurrection,

Christ gave us baptism where we can see and feel the purifying presence of water, that when we enter a church, we bless ourselves with holy water remembering our baptism, He gave us the sacrament of His Eucharist, the manna of heaven, that we can see and taste and feel and eat…to make us extensions of Christ Himself.

We are given Confirmation as stated earlier…we are given actual sacraments of reconciliation and anointing – healing as you have in the laying of hands…we have the sacraments of vocation – Holy Orders or Matrimony…

All. these with the understanding of Sacred Scripture according to the entire content of Scripture…all parts connect to each other…fulfilled in Jesus Christ, Eternal Word…

Why do the Mormons not accept Christians…what did we do that made the Mormons separate from us and that they are now the Latter Day Saints???

We have the visible sacraments…no arbitration, no mental disputes, no verbal disputes. Concrete. The chaff is always with the wheat…those who persevere to the end shall be saved…

So again, what did the Catholic Church do or teach or behave that caused the Mormons not to only be separate from us and as well as the protestants but to begin a new denomination…

with different teachings and interpretations…Colossians being as gods…we will be judged and those admitted into eternal life will enjoy a new heaven and new earth all in praise of Jesus Christ Who will reign for ever and ever…

My reply to part of your quote, based on my understanding of Mormons, receive impressions from the Holy Ghost. No sacrament as Catholics, just worthily receiving the Holy Ghost in their lives.

Regarding your statements about Mormons breaking from Catholics — Mormons have never been part of Catholicism or are a break as most Protestants are.

 

[KathleenGee]

Courtiswa…

I believe the Lord answers all those who call on Him and His name, who desire His help, irregardless of their belief system…He is drawn to a sincere heart.

Yes, they have the Holy Spirit through desire…and where others are in the Lord only He knows.

Yes, the Mormons are a great break from both Catholicism and Protestantism…and the only way to build bridges is for them to have an objective study of the early years of our faith as well as our foundation in Judaism…

Also what I react to is some of the statements of J. Smith, how he put on glasses…when the greatest number of miracles regarded blindness, and how the Lord gave them sight…through their faith…not special, magical-like glasses…

The priesthood of Aaron…after the worship of the Golden Calf, only the Levites could be priests as they were the only ones who repented and did not participate.

The groups in the USA that came out of the 1830’s have a severe separation from everyone else that it is very hard to develop a foundation upon which to dialogue without academic study.

I went to the Deseret store to study their faith with an open mind, to find parallels, and through the mystery of the Holy Spirit, to build bridges and reconciliation…

Blessings…

 

[dianaiad]

Thank you, Diana. I HAVE experienced this, but I guess my confusion lies in that fact that my experience of this has been of and through the Catholic Church, through answered prayers, specifically an answered prayer by Jesus through a novena to St. Therese as well as through the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist. And you are right - it is the most awesome feeling in the world and words are inadequate to describe it.

OK, then you know what I’m talking about.

I just don’t understand how the Holy Spirit would give an affirmation of two conflicting interpretations of Scripture to two different people. Or, as I asked someone else at one time, what about Muslims who say they have experienced an affirmation from God of the truth of Islam? They certainly believe that their “witness” is real and from God. Given the doctrines of Islam and its denial of Jesus’ Divinity, I would have to say that their “witness” has been misinterpreted. How does one determine what is from God and what is “wishful thinking” (for lack of a better term) that something is true.

First…Why should an affirmation that God is be denied to a Muslim–just because he doesn’t have a complete understanding of God? If THAT is the requirement, we none of us would be getting any sort of affirmation that He is. Of course, if a Muslim gets that affirmation that God is…and then piggy backs all sorts of other baggage TO that truth that perhaps was not actually part of the affirmation, whose fault is that?

Second, it doesn’t matter WHERE truth is found; truth is truth. That Jesus is the Messiah is as true for Catholics as it is for Mormons or Presbyterians or Baptists…or Muslims. It so happens that (from what I have been told by Muslims, anyway…) that they believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah, that He was born of a virgin and performed all the miracles; if they get an affirmation of that, is that wrong?

If one gets a moment of joyful affirmation that God is, and that His Son is…and that God loves us—is it a lie if the recipient of that affirmation is Presbyterian or Jewish rather than Catholic?

I don’t believe for a moment that the Holy Ghost will steer anyone wrong. I DO believe that people can misinterpret what is happening, or have come to the experience already having made up their minds, or having not been all that sincere in their praying.

I also think that He might just guide the person in the way he or she needs to go, rather than in the way I think he or she needs to go. That does NOT mean that I think all faiths are the same and that there are "many paths to God.’ There aren’t. However, every belief system has Truth in it…and no matter what frame it wears, it’s the same Truth. God knows where we need to be, if we listen to Him, we’ll get it.

If the Book of Mormon is true, as you say, then am I to believe that I have misinterpreted all of my experiences of faith and my belief that Holy Spirit has been guiding me?

Why should you? As I mentioned, Truth is truth. It stays the same no matter where it is found. What we believe can only add to, not subtract from, the truths and faith you know. At least, that is what we believe.

What about all of the joy and peace that I experience through Reconciliation and Eucharistic Adoration - am I deluding myself into believing that God has confirmed His Truth to me in these ways? What about St. Padre Pio who actually received the stigmata? How could he receive a false witness to the Truth in such a monumental way?

Thank you for your responses.

Faith is a wonderful and glorious thing. While I believe that Catholicism is the result of a general apostasy in that the priesthood was lost, and some important truths were also lost…and changed…that doesn’t mean that everything you believe in is bunk. Far from it. You have been guided all your life through the experiences you have had; you go with what you know, and your faith has grown, and will continue to do so.

If some people have such incredible faith in Chist that mere words cannot express it, then it doesn’t surprise me a bit that such joy and faith could be expressed in something like stigmata. I don’t believe those things are fraudulent, y’know.

On the other hand, I don’t think that they are honors paid by God to the believer so much as they are the expression of faith BY that believer–but I think that is, in many ways, the same thing.

 

[dianaiad]

I haven’t been able to get the time to start at the beginning of this thread…

I also read the thread on Catholics and tithing that Dianid referenced and it said nothing about the Church dictating to us that we have to tithe…tithing was mentioned twice in the Old Testament.,

It’s also mentioned once, by Jesus Himself, in the NT when he criticises the Pharisees for paying strict attention to the letter of the law (tithing specifically mentioned) but not the spirit. He told them to get their act together; to be more charitable. Not "instead of,’ but ‘in addition to.’ He specifically told them NOT to ‘neglect’ to pay tithing. As well, tithing in the Catholic church has a long history…you can read about it here. ; this is the Catholic Encyclopedia, written by, and very much pro-, Catholics.

newadvent.org/cathen/14741b.htmTo have such a strange doctrine and story about Maroni, the angel, the glasses, Smith’s own practices of divinity, his sexual philandering, a polygamist and his charlatan behavior, in all honesty, I don’t see the constitution of a founder of the new church. Joseph Smith completely contradicts the behavior of our apostles, the church fathers and bishops. His message contradicts the Oral tradition of Jesus Christ given to His apostles, passed down to the Church Fathers, and the bishops…it is just too far out.

Your opinion of our religion is noted…and you are certainly entitled to it. But…wouldn’t you rather it be based upon what really IS, rather than upon misinformation? Basing your opinions on something that isn’t true can be rather embarrassing…and lead to confusion.

And if early leaders were speaking so terribly against Catholics and protestants, it is no wonder they got whacked by people…just the stories and the leaders themselves were terribly upsetting to people who for 1800 years have been taught to value chastity and continence and fidelity to one spouse, to not listen to an angel with a different story.

You are actually justifying the murders and the rapes, the burnings, violence and mob action…the theft of homes, property and the driving out of thousands of people…because two or three leaders had the nerve to call the Catholic church the 'whore of Babylon?" They were wrong, of course…and in fact were corrected by their own peers…but dang, if you think we deserved to be driven out of our nation because of that, what on earth do you think should be done to the Jack Chicks of the world? Great googly moogly, Kathleen!

Masonry is condemned by the Catholic Church.

OK. So?

Masonry has actively solicited all the rich and powerful of society, and the average man who joins is used like a front man on the first two levels. But after that, the Masons have their agenda…and to use pagan symbols…

(sigh)

Our church is the fulfillment of Jewish liturgy, the image of the altar of stone going back to Abraham, to Saul…the symbols in our churches are those from Scripture and the commuion of saints…art and beauty, not Masonry, a men’s club.

Quite so…well, at least the part about calling Masonry a men’s club.

Jesus Christ is the final Word of the revelation of God…Jesus is Eternal Word…and all of us, men and women, share in His Kingship, His role as Prophet and Priest…by the extension of His life for others. There is no new revelation about God after Jesus Christ.

which of course is a problem for you, because if everything stopped with Jesus Christ, we wouldn’t know ABOUT Jesus Christ. He didn’t write a single word Himself, remember? We learn about Him from men who wrote after He died; Peter, Matthew, Luke, John, Mark, Paul…but if you are right, then we have to throw out the entire NT, don’t we?

 

[dianaiad]

I read about the Atonement and that Mormons hold Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane as the great apex of His work…He had not fulfilled His mission until He died on the cross and rose from the dead and laid His sacraments…the sacrament of Reconciliation by giving the Apostles power to forgive sins…this on the evening of the Resurrection…

We beleive that Christ’s Atonement included the Garden, the arrest, the trial, His sufferings on the cross–and that everything culminated upon His resurrection and assencion into Heaven. After all, the Garden is when He accepted the calling; 'not my will, but Thine," remember?

Catholicism is concrete…the 7 sacraments, the institution of the Church…it is concrete, non-arbitrary. We have passed through many hard times…we have had those who fail…but that does not mean the Church itself has failed.

Our liturgy goes back 2,000 years. It is the fulfillment of the Jewish liturgy. We have the greatest library in the world, have done more for humanity than any other organization in the construction of cathedrals, schools, universities, hospitals, art and culture, music, science, and other disciplines. We are a kingdom of our own but not of this world.

You are contradicting yourself a little there, Kathleen. On one hand you are bragging about how much good the church has done for the world, and then brag about how it is 'not of this world." As to the good Catholicism has done…no problem–but there ARE a couple of things; being around for 1700 or so years (and it has been 1700, not 2,000) you had BETTER have done more than any other organization. It would be a very sad state of affairs had someone else done more in far less time.

On the other hand, it is also true that in some things, like, oh…slavery and racial discrimination, and education…you guys got a very slow start. In fact, as far as slavery is concerned, you had such a slow start because y’all had to create much of the problem you are now patting yourselves on the back for solving. …but never mind that. You HAVE done more for the world; more cathedrals, certainly–abbeys and monestaries…the riches of the world found their way to these places, this is very true. Science? Well…you are a lot better about that than you used to be, that’s certain. Why…y’all actually apologized to Galleleo for convicting him of heresy for daring to say that the earth moved around the sun. Mind you, it took 360 years, (y’all finally got around to it in 1992) but you DID manage to finally admit that the earth orbits the sun.

I have no problem opening the Pearl that you have because I am still interested in learning Mormon spirituality, and as I have said before, the Mormons I have met are very nice and loving. There is a great world out there the Mormons don’t know that our faith has to offer as well, as well as understanding the Sacred Tradition.

I’m glad. Did you do that yet? Does it spur any memories of the book you actually DID find? Because I for one am very curious about that book.

In understanding Scripture, you have to take the author’s intent, the message, and in the same Holy Spirit of ancient times as is today, being especially attentive to the Whole of Scripture, not fractured bits and pieces that cause many to leave and form their own communities. We read the Bible in content and unity in light of the whole church of Sacred Tradition, which is --the Oral tradition passed from Jesus to the apostles to the Church Fathers and to the bishops who are the successors of the apostles.

We must be attentive to the anaolgy of faith-- that is the cohence of faith and in the whole plan of Revelation. There are the senses of Scripture --literal, spiritual, allegorical, the moral sense…angogical – the sense of eternal significance…we have the difficulties of languages— Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek…we have the inculturation of the universal faith into all races and peoples of the world…their expression both the same creed and their unique contribution to the Body of Christ…

So when someone comes out with a different doctrine, invalidates the Sacred Tradition that has been passed on for 2,000 years of Who Jesus is, His mission, His call, the foundation of His church, His sacraments – visible signs to us that contain the presence of God, our teachings of the catechism that are the same today as 2000 years ago…the communion of saints you must expect people to react the way they do.

What, lie, falsely accuse, commit violence? That sort of thing?

I am sorry if I have offended you, but I have been offended many times through out my life as a Catholic, and I don’t want anyone to be unjustly treated…

I’m not offended. I AM, however, frustrated. Kathleen, you keep insisting, even after fellow Catholics have corrected you, and in the face of absolute proof to the contrary, that “the Pearl of Great Price” contains horrific insults to the Catholic faith. All I want you to do is go look at the thing, see that it isn’t the book you claim it is, and SAY that.

It’s not a character fault to remember incorrectly. It’s not a flaw to make a mistake. But it IS one to refuse to admit it, and to continue claiming something that is incorrect after you have learned differently. Being mistaken is not a sin…but lying is.

 

[dianaiad]

Since St. Paul is much, much closer to the source and is the source for a lot of scripture in the New Testament, his interpretation should be taken in much higher regard than someone who came about 1800+ years later. Take the Eucharist for example, St. Paul believes it is truly the body and blood of our Lord. 1 Corinthians 10: 17 tells us this. St. Paul himself says, “Be careful to observe [only] one Eucharist; for there is only one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ and one cup of union with his Blood, one altar of sacrifice, as [there is] one bishop with the presbyters and my fellow-servants the deacons.”

By making that statement he is interpreting the events/scripture of the Last Supper to show that the Eucharist is indeed Christ’s flesh and blood.

This is circular. Paul wrote scripture…when you read his words, you are not reading an interpretation of scripture…you are reading scripture itself. Therefore for you to claim that he is the proper interpreter of scripture is saying that…the bible is true because it says it is.

YOU are interpreting scripture when you claim that Paul is the scripture interpeter for you…and trust me on this; perfectly valid interpretations of Paul’s words do NOT result in a belief in transubstantiation. For instance, 1 Cor. 10:16 talks about fellowship (or communion, or participation) OF the Blood of Christ. This would not be intepreted, in and of itself, as a statement that the bread and the wine are the actual flesh and blood of the Savior. In every interpretation of such a statement that I have seen, this refers to a group of people who associate together under a symbolic representation of something, not an actual presence of something.

Diana

 

[dianaiad]

I just read another reference to me about myself telling alot of people about the Pearl of Great Price…and that piece discussed…

Actually I did not tell alot of people…I called SLC, I shared it once with another person…and then brought it up here …yesterday… or day before…that is it.

That’s nice to know, Kathleen…but we ARE a lot of people, and your statements here have been archived forever.

And i did not bury the book in sand…I don’t think you got my imagery. I never bought the thing, but I did go back to look for it because the people said they didn’t know it. I wanted to recheck and somebody here did draw on quotes by men in the early days of the church.

Dianid, I think you are projecting things on me that aren’t true.

Kathleen, I am not projecting anything. I am seeing that you keep insisting upon this even after it has been proven that you were incorrect, and you haven’t retracted your accusations or even checked to see if what we have been telling you is true.

And I would like to know why you and Mormons aren’t accepting Catholics and Protestants and why you have to form a different church and call yourselves Latter Day Saints. What is the justification.

We accept them just fine. We know that y’all are Christians, and have faith in Him. However, we also believe that since there WAS an apostasy during which the priesthood (authority to act in the name of God) was lost, that any baptism performed by you would not be valid. We believe that this priesthood has been restored…and we have it.

If this is true, how could we possibly acknowledge any baptism to be valid but one performed by someone having the authority TO perform it? It would be incredibly contradictory.

That doesn’t mean that we don’t believe that you are Christians, or that God doesn’t love you, or that you don’t have deep and abiding faith in Christ–or indeed that you won’t go to heaven. It just means that we believe that some things have to be done by people who are authorized to do them, and you guys…aren’t. You don’t need to get baptized in order to be a Christian in general, but you do if you want to be the Mormon sort of Christian.

…just as you do if you want to be the Catholic sort.

 

[Jay53]

OK, then you know what I’m talking about.

First…Why should an affirmation that God is be denied to a Muslim–just because he doesn’t have a complete understanding of God? If THAT is the requirement, we none of us would be getting any sort of affirmation that He is. Of course, if a Muslim gets that affirmation that God is…and then piggy backs all sorts of other baggage TO that truth that perhaps was not actually part of the affirmation, whose fault is that?

I don’t think God’s affirmations are denied to anyone. I think you are right - people may “piggback” what they want to believe onto it. Just for example, that is my personal opinion of the Mormon belief that God has a body of flesh and bones. I tried to get a clarification of that belief in another thread. In Genesis God said “Let us make man in our image” and IMO the Mormons have piggybacked “that means God has a physical body like us” onto that. I can’t find any evidence that anyone from back then, Jews, Christians, heretics of Christianity, etc believed this; not until the 4th century when the Church encountered such beliefs and declared them as heresies.

So my question then is, how would a Mormon know if they are “piggybacking” a false belief onto a true one. In the example above, one would have to believe Joseph Smith, but if you don’t, how would one reconcile the contradicting beliefs from the early Church to Mormonism?

Second, it doesn’t matter WHERE truth is found; truth is truth. That Jesus is the Messiah is as true for Catholics as it is for Mormons or Presbyterians or Baptists…or Muslims. It so happens that (from what I have been told by Muslims, anyway…) that they believe that Jesus was the Jewish messiah, that He was born of a virgin and performed all the miracles; if they get an affirmation of that, is that wrong?

If one gets a moment of joyful affirmation that God is, and that His Son is…and that God loves us—is it a lie if the recipient of that affirmation is Presbyterian or Jewish rather than Catholic?

But, what if a Muslim claims they received an affirmation that the Quran is from God and that Jesus did not die on the cross? Again, they are “piggybacking” falsehood onto truth.
How can that Muslim, or anyone, know the difference?

I don’t believe for a moment that the Holy Ghost will steer anyone wrong. I DO believe that people can misinterpret what is happening, or have come to the experience already having made up their minds, or having not been all that sincere in their praying.

I also think that He might just guide the person in the way he or she needs to go, rather than in the way I think he or she needs to go. That does NOT mean that I think all faiths are the same and that there are "many paths to God.’ There aren’t. However, every belief system has Truth in it…and no matter what frame it wears, it’s the same Truth. God knows where we need to be, if we listen to Him, we’ll get it.

Why should you? As I mentioned, Truth is truth. It stays the same no matter where it is found. What we believe can only add to, not subtract from, the truths and faith you know. At least, that is what we believe.

Faith is a wonderful and glorious thing. While I believe that Catholicism is the result of a general apostasy in that the priesthood was lost, and some important truths were also lost…and changed…that doesn’t mean that everything you believe in is bunk. Far from it. You have been guided all your life through the experiences you have had; you go with what you know, and your faith has grown, and will continue to do so.

If some people have such incredible faith in Chist that mere words cannot express it, then it doesn’t surprise me a bit that such joy and faith could be expressed in something like stigmata. I don’t believe those things are fraudulent, y’know.

On the other hand, I don’t think that they are honors paid by God to the believer so much as they are the expression of faith BY that believer–but I think that is, in many ways, the same thing.

Thank you Diana for your insights. I appreciate your charitable response. Merry Christmas to you and your family.