Mormon "Apostasy & Restoration"

[KathleenGee]

Christian RCIA,

I uphold the creed and your wonderful site…but let us all seek the truth together in prayer. God wants us to be of one body…one faith…with all our different cultures of tradition.

 

[SteveVH]

Dianaiad:

Thank you. All I was asking was the importance of the “burning in the bosom” to the Mormon faith. You have finally answered “it is all important”. When you tried to answer my question by instead asking me a question it seemed that you were trying to avoid it.

You made the statement, directed toward me, that “there was a bottom line for you that is the ‘convincer’”. To me that implies that for you the “convincer” is an interior feeling. I believe that this is the conclusion that you wanted me to arrive at concerning my own faith by answering your question. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong about that.

Diana, I agree that “the certainty that divine light gives is greater than that which the light of natural reason gives” (St. Thomas Aquinas). However, as I was trying convey to you, my faith is not based solely on some interior feeling. While faith, illuminated by the divine light, may be above reason, there cannot be a discrepancy between faith and reason because truth can never contradict truth. Reason must take into account, certainly when speaking of a need to “restore” the true Church, actual events and writings which have been documented throughout history. This is where the original idea for this thread came from. I find no Mormon doctrine in the early Church while I find mountains of historical evidence that convince me that the Catholic Church was and remains the one, true Church. My reason affirms my assent to faith, the interior knowledge that “this is right”.

The other point I was trying to make is this. Yes, my interior knowledge, or testimony as you may say, tells me that what I have chosen to believe is right. Here is the problem with relying on interior feelings as a barometer of truth. We believe the same thing about two contradictory religions. Your interior testimony tells you that the LDS is the one, true Church, while mine tells me it is the Catholic Church. As I metioned before, every denomination out there claims the same thing. What this tells me is that interior feelings are very often misleading and sometimes simply wrong. Are our interior feelings an infusion of faith by God, or have we been mislead by our own wishes and desires? When you have two contradictory beliefs, either they are both wrong or only one is right. They cannot both be right. To rely on feelings as “all important” is a dangerous path. While God illumiates our interior being with divine light, it is He also that has given us the light of human reason and therefore expects us to use it.

What I have found in my conversations with the Mormons I have met is that they seem retreat to the “feeling in their heart” when faced with evidence that would, through reason, contradict their beliefs. This seems like a “cop out” to me which is why I asked how important this was to you.

In any event, I do appreciate the straight answer. Thank you again.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic understanding of ‘Our Hearts Were Burning Within Us’…is now the contemporary pastoral plan for adult faith formation in the USA.

‘Our Hearts Were Burning within us’ is the interpersonal form of sharing faith through dialogue like Jesus, #8, in joining people in their daily concerns and walk side by side with them on the way of life.

#9. We will share with them the living word of God, which can touch their hearts and minds and unfold the deep meaning of their experience in the light of all that Jesus said and did…We will trust the capacity of prayer and sacrament to open their eyes to the presence and love of Christ…We will invite them to live and share this Good News with the world…

#11…Why were their hearts burning? They were burning because in Jesus the disciples caught a glimpse into the heart of God and found their world made new. They saw for an instant the full scope of the Father’s loving plan and its high point in Christ’s death and resurrection. In that perspective, the pathway of their lives opened from confusion and despair into conviction and hope, and they began to grasp the height and depth of God’s mysterious love. What a professional learning experience that must have been!’

for us…it is more interior…experiencing such love from God that our lives are made anew…Christ’s kingdom within, the Pearl of Great Price!

 

[SteveVH]

Everyone should remember that even though their hearts were burning within them, they did not recognize Jesus until the breaking of the bread.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Everyone should remember that even though their hearts were burning within them, they did not recognize Jesus until the breaking of the bread.

This is what I was thinking from your previous post. Jesus provided tangible, reasonable, evidence. Himself being one of those, especially to St. Thomas, in his doubt. Jesus didn’t rebuke St. Thomas and tell Him “go with your heart man!”.

I also love it in the Gospel of John, when St. Philip asks Jesus to show Him the Father. “How can you say, ‘show me the father’?” Jesus didn’t tell Philip then, “search your feelings, you know this to be true.” He reasoned with Him.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rebecca,

In my aging process, I misquoted the first name…you gave me the correct book…

‘From Age to Age’, by Fr Edward Foley. I am starting to read this recommended book…you could go to another diocese and to another head of liturgy and they might have a different highly recommended book for a beginning student of liturgy…considering the vast spread of Christianity throughout the world, Fr Foley must define his parameters of how much he intends to cover in this book.

He helps us to see how the Church developed from its earliest times…but within a limited scope…it is impossible for one person to relay the beginnings of the Church, an organic, breathing living body of believers, not something static, but ever reaching towards Christ.

He says there was no primitive rite promulgated early in the first century that eventually became more diverse with the passing of time. Rather, a rich variety of worship forms and time’, but, 'rather a rich variety of worship forms and styles had existed from the start.

This is one of the reasons it is hard to draw on a single source, as Catholicism is universal and drawing on so many kinds of people, but those who carry the same theme, creed and sacraments.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,

In my aging process, I misquoted the first name…you gave me the correct book…

‘From Age to Age’, by Fr Edward Foley. I am starting to read this recommended book…you could go to another diocese and to another head of liturgy and they might have a different highly recommended book for a beginning student of liturgy…considering the vast spread of Christianity throughout the world, Fr Foley must define his parameters of how much he intends to cover in this book.

He helps us to see how the Church developed from its earliest times…but within a limited scope…it is impossible for one person to relay the beginnings of the Church, an organic, breathing living body of believers, not something static, but ever reaching towards Christ.

He says there was no primitive rite promulgated early in the first century that eventually became more diverse with the passing of time. Rather, a rich variety of worship forms and time’, but, 'rather a rich variety of worship forms and styles had existed from the start.

This is one of the reasons it is hard to draw on a single source, as Catholicism is universal and drawing on so many kinds of people, but those who carry the same theme, creed and sacraments.

Thanks.

 

[KathleenGee]

From Fr Foley,

'Instead of beginning with theological treatises or liturgical commentaries, this book will focus on some of the primary symbols of worship itself…limiting considerations to architecture, music, books, vessels that have served Christian worship throughout its history…Ordinary Christians …did have their own experiences. They entered the buildings, heard (and sometimes sang) the music, saw the books and often tasted the bread…For people of every age, this concrete experience…shaped their faith.

‘Because the Eucharist has traditionally been at the heart of Christian worship, these symbols are considered primary as they were used at the Eucharist…particularly…in the West.’

‘This approach allows us to consider seriously the liturgy as source of belief and theology…Christian churches today acknowledge the ancient teaching that worship is the source and embodiment of our common faith…worship has the power to shape and change our belief…More than any official proclamation or systematic treatise, the liturgy announces who we are and who we are to become in Christ.’

‘Liturgy, therefore, is the bedrock upon which we build our theologies of God, church and salvation…’…We state our Creed at every Mass; the Nicene at Sabbath, the Apostles Creed at daily Mass. We have our Catholic/Orthodox priests descendants of the fulfilled priest Melchizedek in Jesus Christ…presbyters of the power of God through liturgy …and the sacraments…all concrete. Prayerfully studying theology is the first degree of theology.

Our concept of restoration is not found so much outwardly…

The ordinary symbols of bread and wine, water, fire through candle, the light, music, architecture and holy dwelling, the tabernacle, the sacred vessels, books, and vestments, the stone altar of sacrifice…the ordinary means of faith are now made supernatural through the presence of Jesus. Jesus is our restoration…again the Pearl of Great Price…

 

[catholic-rcia]

It wasn’t the mormon faith that declared other creeds an abomination. It was heavenly father who made that declaration. Thus, the need for a restoration. Why would there be a need for a restoration if the creeds were not an abomination?

The protestant faiths that allow same sex marriage or woman priests do seem to have creeds that god may consider to be an abomination now. And if we look into the history of protestantism and catholicism, we can see some aspects of abominations that were committed in their histories.

The question is: would god consider their creeds an abomination. This is where the debate should begin.

*I am speaking about the Creed of Christianity, not the sins committed by Christians…even by me! . Note# the same sins I commit myself, why I have a need for confession and absolution, one of our glorious Sacraments. *

*The sins committed by Christians is precisely why Christians need the Creed, the Church which is Jesus, a solid foundation on rock…. Christ’s Church. We all have the same sins Catholic or LDS, you can find this sin in both faiths,…all faiths…all people, and you have to know this. *

So let’s move beyond that pointless point…unless you yourself have no sin.
**

• If you do have sin, the same as others, then we can move on. *
  **
  *But first let’s cover a few sins you might have, the same sins that have caused those to sin in the Catholic Church for 2000 years,(Includes Saint Peter, Thomas, Judas and Paul)…Mother Teresa and all the Popes combined. I am speaking about the core of Christianity, where we start., our foundation…the Creed. Not about the fact that we have sin in our Church, outside of our Church and in each member. Its why we attend. *

*Read the following, and if you get an “A” than count me as very wrong in trying to understand where you are coming from. You seem to be pointing out the abomination / sin of others, in my Catholic Church. Do you not know that we are the Apostasy…and Christ is our Savior? *

*We are taught to look into the mirror at ourselves, our own sin and understand that we have no special right above even the worst sinner on the face of the earth when it comes to Gods forgiveness. Your heart seems to have been hardened along the way. Be honest with yourself as you read the following…it’s perfectly ok and acceptable with us. To help you I will answer each question honestly *

• Do you give God time every day in prayer? No
• Do you seek to love Him with your whole heart?Place him above everyone and everything in your life? No
• Have you been involved with superstitious practices or have you been involved with the occult? Not lately
• Do you seek to surrender yourself to God’s Word as taught by Jesus? Yes
• Have you ever received Sacrament in a state of Mortal sin? Yes
• Have you ever deliberately told a lie? Yes
• Have you used God’s name in vain: lightly or carelessly? Yes
• Have you gossiped? Oh yes
• Have you spoken behind someone else’s back? Yes
• Are you sincere in your dealings with others? Yes
• Are you critical, negative or uncharitable in your thoughts of others? Yes

Continued…

 

[catholic-rcia]

• Do you keep secret what should be kept confidential? Yes
• Have you ever been angry with God? Yes
• Have you wished evil upon another person? Yes
• Have you insulted a sacred person or abused a sacred object? Not yet
• Have you deliberately missed Church on Sundays or Holy Days of Obligation? Yes
• Have you tried to observe Sunday as a family day and a day of rest? Yes
• Do you do needless work on Sunday? Sometimes
• Do I honor and obey my parents? Been to long
• Have you neglected your duties to your spouse and or children? Oh Yes
• Have you given your family a good religious example? Not always, but I try
• Do you try to bring peace into your home life? Yes
• Do you care for you aged and infirm relatives? Yes
• Have you physically harmed anyone? No
• have you abused alcohol or drugs? Yes
• Did you give scandal to anyone, thereby leading them into sin? Yes
• Have you been angry or resentful? Yes
• Have you harbored hatred in your heart? No
• Have you mutilated yourself through any form of sterilization? No
• Have you encouraged or condoned sterilization? No
• Have you been faithful to your marriage vows in thought and action? Thought no… action yes
• Have you engaged in any sexual activity outside of marriage? No
• Have you used any method of contraception or artificial birth control in my marriage? Yes
• Has each sexual act in your marriage been open to the transmission of new life? No
• Have you been guilty of masturbation? Yes
• Have you respected all members of the opposite sex, or have you thought of other people as objects? Respected… yes
• Have you been guilty of any homosexual activity? No
• Do you seek to be chaste in your thoughts, words and actions? Yes
• Are you careful to dress modestly? Yes
• Have you stolen what is not yourd? Yes
• Have you returned or made restitution for what you have stolen? Yes
• Do you waste time at work, school or at home? No
• Do you gamble excessively, thereby denying your family of their needs? No
• Do you pay your debts promptly? No
• Do you seek to share what you have with the poor? Not enough
• Have you lied? Yes
• Have you consented to impure thoughts? Yes
• Do you seek to control your imagination?
• Do you pray at once to banish impure thoughts and temptations? Yes and no
• Are you jealous of what other people have? Have been
• Do you envy the families or possessions of others? Not to much
• Are you greedy or selfish? I can be, have been
• Are material possessions the purpose of your life? To much so
• Do you trust that God will care for all of your material and spiritual needs? I try

So I don’t need to look to find sin in what others have done in my Church through the years, and I do have a great need for Confession. So with that taken care of lets move on to my original question….

• It is the Creed of Christianity that was called an abomination. Where do you find the Creed of Christianity to be an abomination? Was it dictated by the Holy Spirit or the alternative?, there is only two choices here. Let us know where you find the Christian Creed to be an abomination*.

 

[catholic-rcia]

It wasn’t the mormon faith that declared other creeds an abomination. It was heavenly father who made that declaration.

***The Fall of mankind. Adam and Eve desired to be God…they severed the perfect chord of Gods grace to them. Banned from the garden we all die as a result of pride, Mormons and Catholics alike. This is the Abomination, the great apostasy, it includes every human creature who ever lived, who ever will live. ***

Thus, the need for a restoration.

Why would there be a need for a restoration if the creeds were not an abomination?
(Read the Christian Creed presented, post it and let us know what problems you have with it) You can go line by line, sentance by sentance.

Because we are all in Apostasy, there was a need for our Lord and God Jesus to come into the world so that He could die for us, take the judgment that was upon us and offer Himself as a ransom to His Father, to take upon the sins of the world including all of yours to the Cross and die with them in Him, then putting the worlds sin to rest He rose on the third day in (complete) fulfillment of the scriptures once and for all for who ever lived, who are living now and will live in the future, as He makes a complete circle that encompasses all things. Nothing can be added to what He Himself being God and fully human would accomplish. It’s finished! God wins – Satan looses

Although we are still sinners, in this apostasy, this game Satan plays with us, we as Christians do know the final score.

This would be the one and only authentic restoration of mankind. His Passion, the Passion of Christ, our Restoration. Only He can connect the Chord that was severed back to His Father fro each of us who surrender our lives over to Him. Those of us who were baptized into the death of Christ in order to be raised by Him, In Him, through Him for Him.

Am I missing something other than pride and then humility at work?
It is the Catholic Church through her Holy Spirit that has revealed these things clearly to me.

Jesus is at our very core, He being the only thing good about our Church as we are just sinners in transition, relying on Jesus and His Sacraments to bring all of the lost sheep home to Him forever.

.
www.chooseyourcross.com

 

[KathleenGee]

Very good post on the abomination…

Again, the Pearl of Great Price to the Catholic is living in the Kingdom of Christ…

Yes, the Apostasy is the Great Abomination…and we are guilty of tripping into idolatry…we are all apostates…and

Our restoration is in Jesus Christ, His life, death, and Resurrection found in Jesus Christ Word Made Flesh…The Word and the Sacraments whose integrity is affirmed and protected by our Creed…which is defined and protected by the teaching Magesterium which is the transmission of apostolic faith through the Holy Spirit.

The deeper you drawn into the Catholic Church, that people who have sinned in it and caused scandal…you study it, you see your own privacy and liberty upheld…nobody is pulling on you…you can begin to see the Church is Christ’s visible kingdom to the world.

Being in Christ, restored in Him…The church is self-reforming through the grace of Christ and constantly in a spiritual and mystical state of restoration…study history!

 

[catholic-rcia]

Very good post on the abomination…

Again, the Pearl of Great Price to the Catholic is living in the Kingdom of Christ…

Yes, the Apostasy is the Great Abomination…and we are guilty of tripping into idolatry…we are all apostates…and

Our restoration is in Jesus Christ, His life, death, and Resurrection found in Jesus Christ Word Made Flesh…The Word and the Sacraments whose integrity is affirmed and protected by our Creed…which is defined and protected by the teaching Magesterium which is the transmission of apostolic faith through the Holy Spirit.

The deeper you drawn into the Catholic Church, that people who have sinned in it and caused scandal…you study it, you see your own privacy and liberty upheld…nobody is pulling on you…you can begin to see the Church is Christ’s visible kingdom to the world.

Being in Christ, restored in Him…The church is self-reforming through the grace of Christ and constantly in a spiritual and mystical state of restoration…study history!

The writing below sounds very familiar to what you are saying. Maybe the same Spitit? I believe so.

"Christ’s Church exists in order to evangelize, that is to say, in order to preach and teach, to be the channel of the gift of grace, to reconcile sinners with God, and to perpetuate Christ’s sacrifice in the Mass, which is the memorial of His death and glorious resurrection…

The Church is an evangelizer, but she begins by being evangelized herself. She is the community of believers, the community of hope lived and communicated, the community of brotherly love; and she needs to listen unceasingly to what she must believe, to her reasons for hoping, to the new commandment of love. She is the People of God immersed in the world, and often tempted by idols, and she always needs to hear the proclamation of the “mighty works of God” which converted her to the Lord; she always needs to be called together **afresh **by Him and reunited.”

Read it in its entirety here:
Pope Paul VI, Apostolic Exhortation on Evangelization, # 14 & 15

More from our liturgist and RCIA leader here:
utahmission.com/pages/Here_I_am.html

God Bless

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Jesus Christ is the source of our life, He is the one Who sustains the church, not man-made power…if it were so, with 2,000 years of humanity, we would have ended a long time ago.

 

[zaffiroborant]

It wasn’t the mormon faith that declared other creeds an abomination. It was heavenly father who made that declaration. Thus, the need for a restoration. Why would there be a need for a restoration if the creeds were not an abomination?

The protestant faiths that allow same sex marriage or woman priests do seem to have creeds that god may consider to be an abomination now. And if we look into the history of protestantism and catholicism, we can see some aspects of abominations that were committed in their histories.

The question is: would god consider their creeds an abomination. This is where the debate should begin.

No it was Joseph Smith who said Heavenly Father said that, in a word hearsay.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have a very strong impression that Joseph Smith had no knowledge of Catholicism.

To make such a sweeping statement about the church and its believers was making a sweeping statement about almost 2 millenium of Christianity is a blind and unsubstantiated statement.

 

[soren1]

Interesting…I’m not aware of any time during which Mormons could not serve in the military. In fact, we were serving in the military, making the longest military march in recorded US military history, at the same time our nation was kicking us out of her borders.

But carry on…let us by all means not let facts get in the way of a good argument.

You are quite right. None of the teachings of the RCC have never changed.

You are quite correct. The Holy Spirit…the Holy Ghost, never is wrong. You, however, are.

If you would expand on your claim that we have changed our beliefs in terms of military service, for instance, I would be interested.

I think Rinnie has got you confused with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do in fact oppose military service. In addition to the superficial similarity between Mormons and JWs, that both are known for knocking on doors, both religions have gotten their members into a lot of legal scrapes because of practices that were opposed to civil law. In times when draft laws have been enforced, JWs have often gotten themselves imprisoned. In some foreign countries (recently Armenia) sever restriction of the rights of JWs have been enforced due to their refusal to take arms.

Now I don’t speak for Rinnie, I’m just giving you my hunch since he hasn’t responded, but this seems to be the mistake he has made. I find it understandable, but sloppy, and I hope Rinnie will look into it and change his mind here. (It also seems possible, but less likely, that Rinnie might be thinking of the non-participation of Mormons in the Civil War.)

Far from banning military service, the early Mormons formed their own militia, for the purposes of self-defense (not secret murder as sensationalist literature always claims). That militia stayed in use for decades as the establishment and improvement of the government in Utah steadily rendered it obsolete.

 

[dianaiad]

No it was Joseph Smith who said Heavenly Father said that, in a word hearsay.

Well, it was Paul who said that Christ told him to get off his…donkey…on the road to Damascus. It was Matthew, Peter, Luke, Mark, John and other apostles who told us about Christ.

If what Joseph Smith was hearsay, then in the same manner, so is what the early apostles said.

The only difference is that you don’t happen to believe what Joseph Smith said, whereas you do believe what Matthew said, and when you quote Matthew, you expect everyone to accept that the words coming out of HIS pen actually came from Jesus’ mouth. You would be highly insulted if someone said to you…‘hearsay…’ even though it IS ‘hearsay’ in exactly the sense that you are using it with Joseph Smith.

The point is, Mr. Z, that WE do not believe it is ‘hearsay,’ just as few here believe that Matthew’s words are ‘hearsay.’ Since we are here dealing with what WE believe, then…WE believe that it was indeed GOD who said that the creeds were an abomination.

Hence the need for a restoration.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, it was Paul who said that Christ told him to get off his…donkey…on the road to Damascus. It was Matthew, Peter, Luke, Mark, John and other apostles who told us about Christ.

If what Joseph Smith was hearsay, then in the same manner, so is what the early apostles said.

The only difference is that you don’t happen to believe what Joseph Smith said, whereas you do believe what Matthew said, and when you quote Matthew, you expect everyone to accept that the words coming out of HIS pen actually came from Jesus’ mouth. You would be highly insulted if someone said to you…‘hearsay…’ even though it IS ‘hearsay’ in exactly the sense that you are using it with Joseph Smith.

The point is, Mr. Z, that WE do not believe it is ‘hearsay,’ just as few here believe that Matthew’s words are ‘hearsay.’ Since we are here dealing with what WE believe, then…WE believe that it was indeed GOD who said that the creeds were an abomination.

Hence the need for a restoration.

This is why reason and faith should not be at odds.

 

[dianaiad]

I think Rinnie has got you confused with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who do in fact oppose military service. In addition to the superficial similarity between Mormons and JWs, that both are known for knocking on doors, both religions have gotten their members into a lot of legal scrapes because of practices that were opposed to civil law. In times when draft laws have been enforced, JWs have often gotten themselves imprisoned. In some foreign countries (recently Armenia) sever restriction of the rights of JWs have been enforced due to their refusal to take arms.

Jehovah’s Witnesses have very little in common with Mormonism either in doctrine or policies…yes, we both knock on doors, but then so do the Baptists, the Pentacostals–and I’ve even had a Catholic or two knock upon my door. As for ‘legal scrapes,’ would you care to expand on that one? True, I suppose being driven completely out of the nation because our neighbors didn’t like our voting practices and the fact that we weren’t that happy about slavery–and they weren’t happy about polygamy–and I suppose that you could call Bogg’s “Extermination Order” a ‘legal scrape,’ but I don’t think that’s quite the same thing.

On the other hand, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, as completely as I disagree with about everything they believe and practice, have my utter respect for their stance on fighting and war–any group that took the stance they did in Germany during the Holocaust is due respect and admiration. Our people (the Mormons) just hunkered down and survived the best they could. So did the Catholics. The JW’s, on the other hand, were very outspoken, and a bunch of them saw the gas ovens right along with the Jews.

Now I don’t speak for Rinnie, I’m just giving you my hunch since he hasn’t responded, but this seems to be the mistake he has made. I find it understandable, but sloppy, and I hope Rinnie will look into it and change his mind here. (It also seems possible, but less likely, that Rinnie might be thinking of the non-participation of Mormons in the Civil War.)

Ok…You DO realize that very few people on the west side of the Rockies participated in the Civil War, right? You DO realize that part of the reason there WAS a Civil War was because Buchanan (the president before Lincoln) was sympathetic to the South and the slave owners, and rather than deal with the tensions of the time, actively exacerbated them–and then pulled a ‘wag the dog’ ploy to distract attention away from those tensions—by sending (really, I’m not kidding here) one half of the US Army to the Utah territory to arrest Brigham Young, replace him as governor, and kick the Mormons there into line? Look up “Buchanan’s Folly” sometime.

So…the Mormons have an army coming after them… Brigham Young allowed himself to be replaced as governor, but he was NOT arrested and sent back to Washington. Utah was still under ‘occupation’ by the Union Forces during the Civil War…and in spite of that, the Mormons solidly backed the North. Some of the young men actually joined up and fought. Heaven alone only knows why, but in spite of everything the USA did to the Mormons, they have always been, and we remain, patriotic to the very core.

Far from banning military service, the early Mormons formed their own militia, for the purposes of self-defense (not secret murder as sensationalist literature always claims). That militia stayed in use for decades as the establishment and improvement of the government in Utah steadily rendered it obsolete.

The forming of militias was pretty standard practice for everybody back then; all states and most communities had them—and they all phased out during and after the Civil war, pretty much as a direct result of that war.