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dianaiad
Guest
I don’t think anybody would liken it to 'watching a tender moment in a movie…" except those who dismiss this experience in others.
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zerinus
Guest
Maybe it was not a revealed doctrine at that time; but the scripture does not contradict it either. Are you suggesting that God does not have the right to reveal new truths to us as time goes by?
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Marie5890
Guest
I wasnt trying to dismiss anything, just trying to separate the two is all…
I would appreciate if you dont project your own frustrations(or whatever it is you are thinking and or feeling) onto my posts.
Not a fan of projection or having words put in my mouth.
Thank you.
And Diana if you re-read my post…I was just trying to explain “emotional experience” with an example…
Again I wasnt be dismissive.
Please, dont attribute something to my motives that simply doesnt exist.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Book of Mormon? Pearl of Great price? "Another testament of Jesus Christ? What Mormonism promises is a very new gospel, and another gospel of Jesus Christ. This is a new teaching revealed from an “Angel” to Joseph Smith of another gospel according to Joseph Smith without testimony of another eyewitness. By biblical law and standards “Truth” must be maintained by two or three witnesses, Joseph Smith only has himself as a witness to his vision accounts.
Those who seek the Truth of Jesus Christ and his Church of whom Jesus built upon Peter and his apostles are given a warning for such teachings that are to come such as those of Mormonism, which every Christian of the Apostolic Catholic Church must reject and protest its new teachings, especially of the false accusation of a “Total apostacy” which the LDS church has never and will ever give a factual account of their false accusation of a “total apostacy” of Jesus Christ’s Church since the Apostolic period to today.
Scripture speaks against the foundation of the LDS Church and Mormon belief’s and promises; Including SDA’s, and JW’s of which all of these are “Adventist” religions who have made false prophecies, leaving their foundations built upon sand. There is never a resotoration from What God has created, this is a lie from the father of lies himself;
Ecclesiastes 1:10 **Nothing under the sun is new, neither is any man able to say:
Behold this is new: **for it hath already gone before in the ages that were before us.
Galatians 1: 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly forsaking the one who called you by (the) grace (of Christ) for a different gospel
7 (not that there is another). But there are some who are disturbing you and wish to pervert the gospel of Christ. **
8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed! 9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed! **
11 Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin.
12 For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 4: 11 **And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,
12 to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, 5 for building up the body of Christ,
13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, 6 to the extent of the full stature of Christ,
14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming. **15 Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ, 7
2 John 7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist. 5
9 Anyone who is so “progressive” 7 as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him;
11 for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.
1 Timothy 6; 3 **Whoever teaches something different and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the religious teaching
4 is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid disposition for arguments and verbal disputes. From these come envy, rivalry, insults, evil suspicions,
5 and mutual friction among people with corrupted minds, who are deprived of the truth, **supposing religion to be a means of gain.
cont;
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Colosians 2; 16** Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or sabbath.** 8
17 These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ.
18** Let no one disqualify you, delighting in self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, 9 inflated without reason by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding closely to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and bonds, achieves the growth that comes from God. 20 If you died with Christ to the elemental powers of the world, why do you submit to regulations as if you were still living in the world? **21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”
2 Peter 2: 1 **There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
3 In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does not sleep. **
1John 2: 18 **Children, it is the last hour; 9 and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
20 But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, 11 and you all have knowledge.
22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. **
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
24 **Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13
25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.
26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him. **
1 John 4: 1** Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. 4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.**
Catholics believe that Jesus Christ comes in the flesh, and continues to be present to us in his his “FLESH” during Jesus Liturgy of the Eucharist. Those who deny this, do not have the Son and the Father in them.
17 These are shadows of things to come; the reality belongs to Christ.
18** Let no one disqualify you, delighting in self-abasement and worship of angels, taking his stand on visions, 9 inflated without reason by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding closely to the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and bonds, achieves the growth that comes from God. 20 If you died with Christ to the elemental powers of the world, why do you submit to regulations as if you were still living in the world? **21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”
2 Peter 2: 1 **There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will introduce destructive heresies and even deny the Master who ransomed them, bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their licentious ways, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
3 In their greed they will exploit you with fabrications, but from of old their condemnation has not been idle and their destruction does not sleep. **
1John 2: 18 **Children, it is the last hour; 9 and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
20 But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one, 11 and you all have knowledge.
22 Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. **
23 No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
24 **Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father. 13
25 And this is the promise that he made us: eternal life.
26 I write you these things about those who would deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, so that you do not need anyone to teach you. But his anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not false; just as it taught you, remain in him. **
1 John 4: 1** Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God,
3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus 2 does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. 4 You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They belong to the world; accordingly, their teaching belongs to the world, and the world listens to them.
6We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.**
Catholics believe that Jesus Christ comes in the flesh, and continues to be present to us in his his “FLESH” during Jesus Liturgy of the Eucharist. Those who deny this, do not have the Son and the Father in them.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Another way of saying that we are reserved when we hear a new story…Thanks, Gabriel!
How about explaining objective truth vs subjective relativism…
And Christ calling us to be one, referring to the Gospel of John…
And the priesthood of today…from that of the early and exalted image of Melchizedek…
How about explaining objective truth vs subjective relativism…
And Christ calling us to be one, referring to the Gospel of John…
And the priesthood of today…from that of the early and exalted image of Melchizedek…
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dianaiad
Guest
Marie…I wasnt trying to dismiss anything, just trying to separate the two is all…
I would appreciate if you dont project your own frustrations(or whatever it is you are thinking and or feeling) onto my posts.
Not a fan of projection or having words put in my mouth.
Thank you.
And Diana if you re-read my post…I was just trying to explain “emotional experience” with an example…
Again I wasnt be dismissive.
Please, dont attribute something to my motives that simply doesnt exist.
The analogy of ‘tender moment in a movie’ is a classic example of what our critics use to dismiss any description we may have of that experience of the Holy Ghost; “heartburn,” “burning in the bosom,” “emotional experience.”
It is as if any such experience MUST be dismissed as something hysterical, if a Mormon is experiencing it.
…and you just used precisely that language.
…and isn’t that what you were doing, when you explained how you experienced this–and when you compared it to something like 'a tender moment in a movie…" as if any other reaction to this is, obviously, lesser?
(sigh)
Never mind. I’d much rather NOT feel as if I’m talking past you, or you past me. I’m going to put my abused knee to bed. G’nite.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I am going to work now…new case…
Good night and keep you all in prayer!
Dianaiad…
May God bless you with a speedy recovery!
Good night and keep you all in prayer!
Dianaiad…
May God bless you with a speedy recovery!
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Jay53
Guest
John 4:24 contradicts it.
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Marie5890
Guest
Diana…No that is not what I was doing…RE-READ my post please and please dont take it out of context…
I used two example to explain what I ment when describing what I was trying to say
I used “math making sense” to explain one…
I used “tender moment in a movie” to explain another…
They were example…
They were not dismissive anything…
Now perhaps you are overly sensitive to people to criticism of Mormonism that your dander gets up easily over what you consider to be dismissive even it that was never intended? I dont know. Only you can answer that…
Sometimes you seem like you more often then not come to this forum either with a chip on your shoulder/attitude or always in full battle gear mode…
So rather than seeing a discussion as a discussion you always see it as some sort of battle??? I dont know. Only you can answer that.
But if you re-read my post and try to see it from my perspective, I was talking about what an experience with the Holy Spirit was like for me and what is was not like for me
So please…take the chip off your shoulder…ditch the attitude…take off the battle gear…This isnt war…we are not the enemy…
This forum really shouldnt rob you of the deep peace of Christ…Its not worth it…
But maybe you enjoy debate and heated discussions and all the contention that comes from it…
Hope you sleep well…
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The short answer to all of the above is Jesus Christ; Without a theological treatise, here is an introduction;
There is only one Truth, and that is Jesus Christ because the Father and the Holy Spirit testify of the Son Jesus Christ.
Subjective relativism comes from man which leads man on the wide path of destruction, for to follow ones own “truth” as he relates it to be true to oneself walks on the wide path that leads to destruction. When man tries to justify his own belief’s as “truth” makes himself out to be a god, and holds our creator in contempt of “Truth” by denying the reality which encompasses both the physical and the Spiritual realities.
The narrow Path of Truth has already been walked upon and made ready by Jesus Christ himself, all we need to do is follow him, the Christ (anointed one of God) Jesus himself.
The only way for a Jew and a Gentile to become one, is through Jesus Christ. The only way for enemies to love one another is through Jesus Christ. Only the presence of Jesus Christ can bring peace and love which removes that dividing wall of enmity between souls and making them One in Jesus Christ. For there can only be One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord. It is the true presence of Jesus Christ that joins every age as one in the communion of Saints both in heaven and on earth. Apart from the communion of Saints, one is not one in Jesus Christ.
Jesus fulfilled the prophecy according to the order of Melchizedeck in himself. Melchizedeck offered sacrifices to the Living God in the form of bread and wine. Jesus fulfilled this in his body and blood, when Jesus commanded his Apostles to “do this in memory of me” consecrating the Apostles and their unbroken successors in the Popes, Bishops and priests today in the Catholic Church who offer up the eternal once and for all sacrifice to the Father in heaven in the form of bread and wine according to the order of Melchizedeck, which according to the Word of God becomes the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. Which remains today as the fulfilled “Todah” sacrifice.
Jesus is our High Priest, who becomes present to his apostles and their successors by their consecrated life to Jesus Christ in personna Christi.
Mormons, non catholics, and some protestants, do not use true bread and true wine to offer a sacrifice according to the order of Melchizedeck, they substitute bread and wine for crackers and juice or water. Besides neither one of the former can trace their priesthood back to the original apostles and Jesus himself, because they all deny the True presence of Jesus Christ come in the flesh.
This is just a quick summary introduction. All of the above you introduced here can take a thread all by themselves.
Peace be with you
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SteveVH
Guest
Zerinus:
You asked “are you suggesting that God does not have the right to reveal new truths to us as time goes by?”
God can do whatever He wants, but what he chose to do is to reveal Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is God’s only Word. There is nothing left to reveal bcause it has all been revealed in His only Word. There is no other word to be spoken. This has nothing to do with God’s rights. It has everything to do with what He actually did and Who Jesus Christ is. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and He is sufficient.
You asked “are you suggesting that God does not have the right to reveal new truths to us as time goes by?”
God can do whatever He wants, but what he chose to do is to reveal Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus is God’s only Word. There is nothing left to reveal bcause it has all been revealed in His only Word. There is no other word to be spoken. This has nothing to do with God’s rights. It has everything to do with what He actually did and Who Jesus Christ is. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and the prophets and He is sufficient.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I’ve asked this of mormons before…what exactly did Jesus forget to tell us?
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KathleenGee
Guest
I just finished posting on ‘How did the first church fail?’ and the posts the past few days have been so good, but the last two days have been incredible.
I would recommend you go there for a visit…
And I am concluding my discussions in some areas with the good Mormon folk we have here in regards to my new findings and understanding of Mormonism.
Someone suggested we stay focus on the Gospel with them…just a thought.
Happy New Year!
Kathleen
I would recommend you go there for a visit…
And I am concluding my discussions in some areas with the good Mormon folk we have here in regards to my new findings and understanding of Mormonism.
Someone suggested we stay focus on the Gospel with them…just a thought.
Happy New Year!
Kathleen
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zerinus
Guest
If that is true, then Jesus couldn’t have been God, because He definitely had a physical body.
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zerinus
Guest
If that is true, then you must be greater than God, because you are telling us something that God doesn’t know, and has not said anywhere in any of His scriptures.
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catholic-rcia
Guest
A well known Mormon man tried to convert me when I was going through the RCIA. We watched a video together that showed Christians as witches, very evil. Then we watched as Joseph Smith spoke to deity. He walked away as a saying He spoke to me…He spoke to me. After the video was over Paul said “now do you see why the church is true?” I said no I don’t , that was just a video and the Christians who are teaching me about Christ are not like anything in your video.
He was frustrated the whole time with me as we went over the Scriptures that I was just learning. When ever it did not match up with what He believed he would say the Catholics changed it. I was there for two hours when I said “I have to go home to my family Paul” He said you may see them tonight but you will loose them forever unless you listen to me. I said I have to go Paul and then I really started to get a bit scared because he wanted me to watch the video again. I said I have to go, I even went to embrace him but he stood back and said this “You really think a lot about that fellow Jesus don’t you? Not expecting this I said “yes he is my everything” the door shut and I went home. For ten years he sent me negative writings on the Catholic Church circling, highlighting the points he thought would help me. I stoped opening his letters many years ago and had a calling from the spirit to go to his home a few month back. When he saw me he approached again from his web. I asked him how he was and he said “all beat up” we sat down in his living room and he started telling me why the Catholic Church is evil. I told him I did not come to do this, I just came to see how he was. (I have come to love this man, why? Because I know how much Jesus loves him) He still wanted to speak about his Mormon faith and try to convince me that I was in the wrong faith. I told him again that this is not why I came by……he told me to leave his home.
I left
He died a few days ago from a battle of Cancer……please say a prayer in all humility / for Paul Harris
God bless
He was frustrated the whole time with me as we went over the Scriptures that I was just learning. When ever it did not match up with what He believed he would say the Catholics changed it. I was there for two hours when I said “I have to go home to my family Paul” He said you may see them tonight but you will loose them forever unless you listen to me. I said I have to go Paul and then I really started to get a bit scared because he wanted me to watch the video again. I said I have to go, I even went to embrace him but he stood back and said this “You really think a lot about that fellow Jesus don’t you? Not expecting this I said “yes he is my everything” the door shut and I went home. For ten years he sent me negative writings on the Catholic Church circling, highlighting the points he thought would help me. I stoped opening his letters many years ago and had a calling from the spirit to go to his home a few month back. When he saw me he approached again from his web. I asked him how he was and he said “all beat up” we sat down in his living room and he started telling me why the Catholic Church is evil. I told him I did not come to do this, I just came to see how he was. (I have come to love this man, why? Because I know how much Jesus loves him) He still wanted to speak about his Mormon faith and try to convince me that I was in the wrong faith. I told him again that this is not why I came by……he told me to leave his home.
I left
He died a few days ago from a battle of Cancer……please say a prayer in all humility / for Paul Harris
God bless
C
catholic-rcia
Guest
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds…Hebrews
I can post many more tonight if you wish Zerinus
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dianaiad
Guest
Uh huh.
And who wrote Hebrews?
Hint: it wasn’t Jesus. Therefore we have a problem, ESPECIALLY since it seems that Paul wrote Hebrews. (There is some question about that…but let’s go with Paul writing Hebrews, because it works better to support my point.
)We have Paul telling us that a: God used to speak through prophets…but that now b: God sent His Son, who is doing the talking. However, c: Paul never met Jesus in life. HE knew the words of Jesus through the words of his fellow apostles and through direct revelation from Jesus after the crucifixion and resurrection. Having learned of Christ through those things (the apostles and direct revelation) he is now teaching US.
So…how are WE learning about Christ? Why…the same way Paul did (minus, in the vast majority of cases, direct revelation/visitations from Christ Himself). We learn of Him through the words of those whom Christ called, and to whom He revealed great truths. Paul, himself, is a classic example of the OT sort of prophet, actually; someone to whom God speaks directly, and who is given instructions to tell the rest of us what God says.
Given all this, it seems pretty clear that while PAUL may, with reason, remove himself from the rest of the world and claim that he is learning directly from Christ, that same statement does not, and cannot, apply to those of us reading his statement. Why? Because we aren’t learning about Christ directly from Him, are we? We learn of Him through Paul, through Peter, through Matthew, Luke, John, Mark…and we Mormons learn of Him ALSO through Nephi, Moroni, Alma, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young…and even Thomas S. Monson.
Here’s a question to ponder for all: God is eternal; time means nothing to Him; 2000 years is, what—a quarter of an eyeblink, if that? If He chooses to wait that long between prophets, how does that prove that He no longer calls them?
Such a position, to me, seems pretty silly. God does not change–and if He called prophets before Christ, and continued to use prophets AFTER Christ (and He did, or we wouldn’t know anything about Him) then why assume that he never, ever will again?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Diana, you then cut off the source of truth and learning for 2000 years, which Christ gave to His Church. Do you really believe God left the world blind for so long? To us it is preposterous.Uh huh.
And who wrote Hebrews?
Hint: it wasn’t Jesus. Therefore we have a problem, ESPECIALLY since it seems that Paul wrote Hebrews. (There is some question about that…but let’s go with Paul writing Hebrews, because it works better to support my point.
We have Paul telling us that a: God used to speak through prophets…but that now b: God sent His Son, who is doing the talking. However, c: Paul never met Jesus in life. HE knew the words of Jesus through the words of his fellow apostles and through direct revelation from Jesus after the crucifixion and resurrection. Having learned of Christ through those things (the apostles and direct revelation) he is now teaching US.
So…how are WE learning about Christ? Why…the same way Paul did (minus, in the vast majority of cases, direct revelation/visitations from Christ Himself). We learn of Him through the words of those whom Christ called, and to whom He revealed great truths. Paul, himself, is a classic example of the OT sort of prophet, actually; someone to whom God speaks directly, and who is given instructions to tell the rest of us what God says.
Given all this, it seems pretty clear that while PAUL may, with reason, remove himself from the rest of the world and claim that he is learning directly from Christ, that same statement does not, and cannot, apply to those of us reading his statement. Why? Because we aren’t learning about Christ directly from Him, are we? We learn of Him through Paul, through Peter, through Matthew, Luke, John, Mark…and we Mormons learn of Him ALSO through Nephi, Moroni, Alma, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young…and even Thomas S. Monson.
Because Jesus said He is with us…do you believe He lied?
And no, God does not change (maybe you should inform other mormons of this). Jesus is the fulfillment of OT prophecies. He is the culmination of ALL. Not Joseph Smith. Jesus is the One Who restored all things. Not Joseph Smith.
What exactly did Jesus miss?
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