Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[mfbukowski]

mf,
You know as well as I that the BOM view of God (modalist trinitarian) is not the view of the LDS church. The Joseph Smith version of multiple gods in multiple generations of gods taught since about August 1831 is directly at odds with the BOM One God in three persons. If you can’t see the obvious contradiction then I for one give up.

Good. Promise? There is no contradiction, and any apparant contradiction is semantic. Remember the 3 whats and one who?

Semantic contraditiction. The contradiction is not in LDS theology — it is in the very concept of how 3 persons can be one God.

You just put it through a different theoretical construct than we do, but both are theoretical constructs. Look at Aquinas and his intellectual gymnastics! And the debates through thousands of years!

Same idea, different semantics. Honestly. So the challenge for any Christian is how to make sense of how three can be one. The math just doesn’t work.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Good. Promise? There is no contradiction, and any apparant contradiction is semantic. Remember the 3 whats and one who?

Semantic contraditiction. The contradiction is not in LDS theology — it is in the very concept of how 3 persons can be one God.

You just put it through a different theoretical construct than we do, but both are theoretical constructs. Look at Aquinas and his intellectual gymnastics! And the debates through thousands of years!

Same idea, different semantics. Honestly.

oh no, constructs. Makes me think you are in worse shape than I thought.

There is only one truth and that truth is not a construct. Neither is truth relative.

Please tell me how you are defining Mystery.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

Good. Promise? There is no contradiction, and any apparant contradiction is semantic. Remember the 3 whats and one who?

Semantic contraditiction. The contradiction is not in LDS theology — it is in the very concept of how 3 persons can be one God.

You just put it through a different theoretical construct than we do, but both are theoretical constructs. Look at Aquinas and his intellectual gymnastics! And the debates through thousands of years!

Same idea, different semantics. Honestly. So the challenge for any Christian is how to make sense of how three can be one. The math just doesn’t work.

I don’t know if you read this earlier because I didn’t see a response from you, but here it is in case you didn’t see it.

That’s why it is called the “Mystery of the Trinity” our human brains can not comprehend how 1 God could be among 3 different deities. We are not supposed to understand yet. It’s like trying to fit the ocean into 1 glass; we don’t have the capacity to understand it in our mortal brains. Jesus also states several times that God was a mystery, but to have Faith!! Job 11:7 is a great place in the bible where it states this; really all of Job 11 is about this. Another very good book is, 1 Corinthians 2:7. 1 Timothy 3:16 “Beyond all question, the mystery from which true Godliness springs is great: He appeared in a body was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.” Just have Faith in it. Just stop trying to figure out how it is **HUMANLY **possible, and try to understand that it beyond our knowledge at this time. We will know fully one day, but not yet. We are not in a state of complete grace, so that is why we can not understand complete grace. If we were there with God in Heaven (complete Grace) then we would know. He told us all before we even came to earth who we were and who He is. It is up to us to remember, and have Faith in what Jesus told us. Jesus wants us to remember, that’s why He told the apostles the mysteries and why they are mysteries. We have not been granted that honor of knowing just yet. As long as we can accept that, and be patient, the more at peace we will be. Faith, Love, Peace, Patience. They all have to be done together. You can not understand one without the other, or do one without the other.
God Bless, Alisha

 

[mfbukowski]

Paul, Now, not being the smartest guy here, I might be wrong about this, but I got a hunch mj is confused.

I am actually going to let this go. Aren’t you guys proud of me? A perfect set up and I am letting it go!

Where’s my gold star? I promise to put JMJ on the top of the paper!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am actually going to let this go. Aren’t you guys proud of me? A perfect set up and I am letting it go!

Where’s my gold star? I promise to put JMJ on the top of the paper!

Almost let it go. Not quite. No gold star for you.

 

[mfbukowski]

I don’t know if you read this earlier because I didn’t see a response from you, but here it is in case you didn’t see it.

That’s why it is called the “Mystery of the Trinity” our human brains can not comprehend how 1 God could be among 3 different deities. We are not supposed to understand yet. It’s like trying to fit the ocean into 1 glass; we don’t have the capacity to understand it in our mortal brains. Jesus also states several times that God was a mystery, but to have Faith!! Job 11:7 is a great place in the bible where it states this; really all of Job 11 is about this. Another very good book is, 1 Corinthians 2:7. 1 Timothy 3:16 “Beyond all question, the mystery from which true Godliness springs is great: He appeared in a body was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.” Just have Faith in it. Just stop trying to figure out how it is **HUMANLY **possible, and try to understand that it beyond our knowledge at this time. We will know fully one day, but not yet. We are not in a state of complete grace, so that is why we can not understand complete grace. If we were there with God in Heaven (complete Grace) then we would know. He told us all before we even came to earth who we were and who He is. It is up to us to remember, and have Faith in what Jesus told us. Jesus wants us to remember, that’s why He told the apostles the mysteries and why they are mysteries. We have not been granted that honor of knowing just yet. As long as we can accept that, and be patient, the more at peace we will be. Faith, Love, Peace, Patience. They all have to be done together. You can not understand one without the other, or do one without the other.
God Bless, Alisha

I saw it and will give it due consideration. Thanks for your post.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am actually going to let this go. Aren’t you guys proud of me? A perfect set up and I am letting it go!

Where’s my gold star? I promise to put JMJ on the top of the paper!

Almost let it go. Not quite. No gold star for you.

ps: when I was in primary they would lick the gold star to stick it to your forehead. I would try to make sure I was the one to not get the gold star because I didn’t want someone’s spit on my forehead. Nowadays, they have self adhesive stars.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

I saw it and will give it due consideration. Thanks for your post.

You are very welcome!

 

[PaulDupre]

And many ex Catholics return home.

Yes, there are several of us right here on this forum.

 

[PaulDupre]

Speaking of Mormons becoming Catholic… I learned recently that my LDS niece and her fiance, a recently returned missionary, are attending mass weekly at the Catherdral of the Madelaine in SLC (instead of attending sacrament meeting). My adult son was baptized into the Catholic Church last year, my formerly bitterly anti-Catholic Protestant brother is reading the ECFs and now has great respect for Catholicism, my son is evangelizing my daughter, and now my LDS niece is going to mass with her RM fiance! My prayers for the unification of my family in the Catholic faith are being answered.

Just wanted to share the joy. :extrahappy: Thank you Jesus!!

Paul

 

[MEgus]

2:1 Heaven and earth, and all their components, were [thus] completed.
Vayechulu hashamayim veha’arets vechol-tseva’am.
2:2 With the seventh day, Elohim finished all the work that He had done. He [thus] ceased on the seventh day from all the work that He had been doing.
Vayechal Elohim bayom hashvi’i melachto asher asah vayishbot bayom hashvi’i mikol-melachto asher asah.
2:3 Elohim blessed the seventh day, and He declared it to be holy, for it was on this day that Elohim ceased from all the work that He had been creating [so that it would continue] to function.
Vayevarech Elohim et-yom hashvi’i vayekadesh oto ki vo shavat mikol-melachto asher-bara Elohim la’asot.

Now, we have something interesting that happens after this point. Up until now, the creation has been done by Elohim. But something else is about to happen. We are going to be introduced to the tentagram of YHWH. This name has been called Yehowah, or Jehovah. The Jewish People substitute the proper name Adonay for this term.

2:4
These are the chronicles of heaven and earth when they were created, on the day Adonay Elohim created earth and heaven.
Eleh toledot hashamayim veha’arets behibare’am beyom asot Adonay Elohim erets veshamayim.

Did you catch that? Adonay(Jehovah) and Elohim are now going to physically create the earth. Before, it was spiritually created by Elohim, and now it’s going to be physically created by Adonay(Jehovah) under the direction of Elohim. You might also notice that there is no time stated in how long this process took, only the order in which it was created.

2:5 All the wild shrubs did not yet exist on the earth, and all the wild plants had not yet sprouted. This was because Adonay Elohim had not brought rain on the earth, and there was no man to work the ground.
Vechol siach hasadeh terem yihyeh va’arets vechol-esev hasadeh terem yitsmach ki lo himetir Adonay Elohim al-ha’arets ve’adam ayin la’avod et-ha’adamah.
2:6 A mist rose up from the earth, and it watered the entire surface of the ground.
Ve’ed ya’aleh min-ha’arets vehishkah et-kol-peney ha’adamah.
2:7 Adonay Elohim formed man out of dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils a breath of life. Man [thus] became a living creature.
Vayitser Adonay Elohim et-ha’adam afar min-ha’adamah vayipach pe’apav nishmat chayim vayehi ha’adam lenefesh chayah.
2:8 Adonay Elohim planted a garden in Eden to the east. There He placed the man that He had formed.
Vayita Adonay Elohim gan-be’Eden mikedem vayasem sham et-ha’adam asher yatsar.
2:9 Adonay Elohim made grow out of the ground every tree that is pleasant to look at and good to eat, [including] the Tree of Life in the middle of the garden, and the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
Vayatsmach Adonay Elohim min-ha’adamah kol-ets nechmad lemar’eh vetov lema’achal ve’Ets haChayim betoch hagan ve’Ets haDa’at tov vara.
2:10 A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden. From there it divided and became four major rivers.
Venahar yotse me’Eden lehashkot et-hagan umisham yipared vehayah le-arba’ah rashim.
2:11 The name of the first is Pishon. It surrounds the entire land of Havilah where gold is found.
Shem ha’echad Pishon hu hasovev et kol-erets haChavilah asher-sham hazahav.
2:12 The gold of that land is [especially] good. Also found there are pearls and precious stones.
Uzahav ha’arets hahi tov sham habedolach ve’even hashoham.
2:13 The name of the second river is Gihon. It surrounds the land of Cush.
Veshem hanahar hasheni Gichon hu hasovev et kol-erets Kush.
2:14 The name of the third river is the Tigris which flows to the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.
Veshem hanahar hashlishi Chidekel hu haholech kidemat Ashur vehanahar ha revi’i hu Ferat.
2:15 Adonay Elohim took the man and placed him in the Garden of Eden to work it and watch it.
Vayikach Adonay Elohim et-ha’adam vayanichehu vegan-Eden le’ovdah uleshomrah.

 

[MEgus]

2:16 Adonay Elohim gave the man a commandment, saying, ‘You may definitely eat from every tree of the garden.
Vayetsav Adonay Elohim al-ha’adam lemor mikol ets-hagan achol tochel.
2:17 But from the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, do not eat, for on the day you eat from it, you will definitely die.’
Ume’ets hada’at tov vara lo tochal mimenu ki beyom acholcha mimenu mot tamut.
2:18 Adonay Elohim said, ‘It is not good for man to be alone. I will make a compatible helper for him.’
Vayomer Adonay Elohim lo-tov heyot ha’adam levado e’eseh-lo ezer kenegdo.
2:19 Adonay Elohim had formed every wild beast and every bird of heaven out of the ground. He [now] brought [them] to the man to see what he would name each one. Whatever the man called each living thing [would] remain its name.
Vayitser Adonay Elohim min-ha’adamah kol-chayat hasadeh ve’et kol-of hashamayim vayave el-ha’adam lir’ot mah-yikra-lo vechol asher yikra-lo ha’adam nefesh chayah hu shemo.
2:20
The man named every livestock animal and bird of the sky, as well as all the wild beasts. But the man did not find a helper who was compatible for him.
Vayikra ha’adam shemot lechol-habehemah ule’of hashamayim ulechol chayat hasadeh ule-Adam lo-matsa ezer kenegdo.
2:21 Adonay Elohim then made the man fall into a deep state of unconsciousness, and he slept. He took one of his ribs and closed the flesh in its place.
Vayapel Adonay Elohim tardemah al-ha’adam vayishan vayikach achat mitsal’otav vayisgor basar tachtenah.
2:22 Adonay Elohim built the rib that he took from the man into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
Vayiven Adonay Elohim et-hatsela asher-lakach min-ha’adam le’ishah vayevi’eha el-ha’adam.
2:23 The man said, ‘Now this is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh. She shall be called Woman (Ishah) because she was taken from man (ish).’
Vayomer ha’adam zot hapa’am etsem me’atsamay uvasar mibesari lezot yikare ishah ki me’ish lukacha-zot.
2:24 A man shall therefore leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Al-ken ya’azov-ish et-aviv ve’et imo vedavak be’ishto vehayu levasar echad.
2:25 The man and his wife were both naked, but they were not embarrassed by one another.
Vayihyu shneyhem arumim ha’adam ve’ishto velo yitboshashu.

Now, this is the original scripture. Given to us by Moses in the Torah and preserved far better than any other we have over time. It shows the beginning of the world. It shows us things as they really are. And it shows us that the physical creation was done by Jehovah and the Spiritual creation was done by Elohim.

MEgus

 

[ricko]

Eventually Hebrew developed written vowels, which appeared as small marks called vowel points and were placed above and below the consonants of a word. In the sixth or seventh century some Jews began to place the vowel points for “Adonai” over the consonants for “Yahweh” to remind the reader of Scripture to say “Adonai” whenever he read “Yahweh.”

About the thirteenth century the term “Jehovah” appeared when Christian scholars took the consonants of “Yahweh” and pronounced it with the vowels of “Adonai.” This resulted in the sound “Yahowah,” which has a Latinized spelling of “Jehovah.” The first recorded use of this spelling was made by a Spanish Dominican monk, Raymundus Martini, in 1270.
Catholic Answers

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Not at all – seriously. If you can understand the Trinity, you are smarter than I am. I just plain don’t get it at all. But that’s ok because it’s a Mystery, right?

**Hi mf,
I think most people here are smarter than me here! I do know that no one can understand the trinity! Just like God’s gift of salvation, to believers, it is a Mystery!
Why some people read what is needed to be saved and comply with Jesus’ commands, while others continue to rebel and and follow false human leaders is the real Mystery.

God Almighty, Himself, walked the earth 2,000 years ago. His followers today do not call themselves “Jews”. We call ourselves “Christians”. Others call us Catholics. You actually can’t be a Christian, without being a Catholic! How anyone who follows White, Smith, Luther, Calvan or any other human being’s corrupted ideas of Jesus’ teachings could think they are Christians defies understanding. You can not be following some human’s distorted teachings. If you are following Jesus you are automatically following the RCC!

People think that Satan has no power! HA! He makes people believe that his way is God’s way! The greatest method of deception is to counterfeit. The master of counterfeit and deception is Satan. The Bible in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warns of Satan’s counterfeit: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;. . .” Isaiah 14: 14 tells of Satan’s ultimate counterfeit: “. . . I will BE LIKE the most High.”

Only Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light, The Catholic Church is 2,000 years old and the only church Jesus established or authorized to be established 2,000 years ago! The rest are counterfeit!

mf, the cute thing that you do is attempt to use the CCC to prove that the Mormon religion is the correct one! The nerve of some cultist! Why don’t you make your own books and wirtings? Oh, wait, I forgot you guys did! Why not use them? Lleave our doctrines and dogmas alone. They are for Christians. No offense meant, but you will contaminate them!

You are in my prayers, May Jesus, the only son of God, open your eyes to the truth! His church, the RCC!

What did you do that forced you to turn from Jesus? Don’t you know he can forgive all sins? Do not be discouraged and don’t attempt to justify your falling away on some shortcoming of the Church.

God Bless
**

 

[web2009]

I am actually going to let this go. Aren’t you guys proud of me? A perfect set up and I am letting it go!

Where’s my gold star? I promise to put JMJ on the top of the paper!

Hey bukowski!! Im sure glad you stayed in the forum.
Just for that you deserve a gold.



Erica

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Almost let it go. Not quite. No gold star for you.

**
Hi Rebecca,

But he did try to let it go! Lets award a bronze star for effort? :coffeeread: I will notify the nominating committee! It will need your indorsement!

Have you noticed he doesn’t answer any questions? Cute isn’t he? :compcoff:

God Bless**

 

[RebeccaJ]

**
Hi Rebecca,

But he did try to let it go! Lets award a bronze star for effort? :coffeeread: I will notify the nominating committee! It will need your indorsement!

Have you noticed he doesn’t answer any questions? Cute isn’t he? :compcoff:

God Bless**

I vote, give the gold.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hey bukowski!! Im sure glad you stayed in the forum.
Just for that you deserve a gold.

**Hi Web,

mj wasn’t going anywhere. Don’t you realize this is as close as he can get to God? He comes here to be with real believers. His memory of what it was like to really be worshipping Jesus can’t be so dead that he doesn’t feel the yearning to be with Jesus followers again. Even if just on a thread in this Forum.

We have to pray for mj Erica. As I am sure you know the scriptures is really servere on those that “knew” Jesus and turned their backs on Him! I wonder if he ever reads the gospel of John anymore?

Jesus commanded all of us to “Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood” multiple times in John 6 after one of the miracles He did multiplying the Loaves and Fishes to show us that it is by a miracle that He gives us His Body & Blood. Towards the end of the chapter many of Jesus’ followers left Him on this one issue.

So can anyone truly be a Christian who does not partake in Holy Eucharist - the reception of His True Body and True Blood? Jesus says No! I believe Jesus!

Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians begin receiving Holy Eucharist as infants immediately after Baptism and Chrismation during the Rite which includes the reception of all 3 Mysteries/Sacraments at once. It has always been, since the beginning of Christianity, those 3 Mysteries which is the initiation in to the Christian Family, the Christian Church.

No other group can have the true presense of Jesus in the Eucharist!

God Bless**

 

[web2009]

Realcatholicgk:
We all need prayer realcatholicgk…remember “he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone”?

erica

 

[truthsilence]

MEgus,

I don’t understand, in the reading of Genesis, how you are getting that the Earth was created ‘spiritually’ before it was created ‘physically’.

Also, from what I’ve gathered of the Hebrew language, (of which I personally know zero I admit) is that, where Adonai and Yhwh occur together the latter, was pronounced “Elohim.”

So you are pursuing a plurality of God’s with this, correct? The Jewish Faith is monotheistic as you know. I think if these Hebrew words denote a plurality of God’s, the people who actually speak the language would know it.

Peace,
Tami