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mfbukowski
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Dang. I wish I was as smart as you.
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mfbukowski
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God is not created in LDS theology. We don’t even know what “creation” means in this context. Everything has always existed, it only changes.Reading this thread brought to mind something I read concerning the Trinity that I put in my journel to ponder. It may be of help to our LDS friends.
Before I quote my journal entry I would ask LDS readers to remember that Traditional Christianity does not look upon Heavenly Father as a created being. This means there is a HUGE difference in perspective on what it means to be DIVINE. A created being requires a creator or parents which is exactly what LDS theology teaches. In LDS theology Heavenly Father has a perfected physical “body with parts and passions”. God in his divine essence in LDS theology is a perfected HUMAN who will continue perfecting himself into eternity… This is why the Traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity makes no sense to the LDS who try to grasp its meaning using their own definition of who and what God is.
In order to approach the Traditional Doctrine of the Trinity we have to start with the idea that our Heavenly Father is NOT HUMAN and does not have a physical body or a father. God the Father is uncreated and eternal. God had no beginning and has no end. Every thing that exists has God as its source, yes even “eternal intelligence”. In our view, God would be the source (not the organizer) of “eternal intelligence” if there were such a thing. ( Catholic readers F.Y.I., the LDS church teaches that the essence of each human being has always existed, as opposed to being created. This pre-mortal eternal existing essence of each human is referred to as" intelligence". In other words, the LDS God didn’t create our fundamental, individual identities out of nothing. In fact he didn’t create us at all. Why? Because he at one time was a pre -mortal intelligence/essence himself. He is an advanced link in the eternal chain ,if you will.) LDS don’t discuss where the eternal intelligence come from for the same reason that Catholics don’t discuss where God came from.Both exist eternally and are uncreated. Hey we actually have one concept in common!
In understanding the Traditional Trinity, the LDS would do well to transfer their eternal concepts of eternal intelligence to the Traditional Christian concept of God in the sense that God is Eternal i.e. always existed, was not created. God instead creates out of nothing and God is not subject to any pre existing divine role.
Okay, finally my Trinity journal entry…
Joseph Ratzinger says in “Introduction to Christianity”
St. Augustine once enshrined this idea in the following formula: “He is not called Father with reference to himself but only in relation to the Son; seen by himself he is simply God” Here the decisive point comes beautifully to light."Father is purely a concept of relationship. Only in being for the other is he Father; in his own being-in himself he is simply God . Person is the pure relation of being-related, nothing else. In other words,Father,Son and Holy Spirit are not separate individuals or “absolute” entities. Rather they are three distinct relations and each relation is identical with divine essence.
John Paul II says:“God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship, and the essence of the family, which is love.” The doctrine of the Trinity means that the family is not a mere sociological or biological human fact but “goes all the way up” into the nature of
God. End of entry
To me, this says that our experience of family as created beings
is a concrete metaphor of the inner family life of the Trinity. It is all about being for the other. Our whole Christian walk is about being for the other whether it be God or our fellow human beings. Eternal life for a Christian is to be enfolded in God’s family forever and that starts as soon as we say yes and continue to say yes. To be enfolded in God’s life does not mean we lose our individual identities or our families, we actually gain a bigger family…Eternal life has nothing to do with becoming a God or reproducing throughout all eternity. Why?
What would be the point? I can’t think of any reason for wanting to be God or a God. I can think of a lot for NOT wanting to be God. Deification In Trad. Christianity does not mean we become God or Gods. It means that God shares his Divine life with us (at our request) and in the process we are made Holy. I am thrilled at God’s invitation to be a member of His household throughout all eternity.
I love my earthly life with all its heartaches and flaws and I have it on good Authority that this is but a poor imitation of what is to come for those that Love God.
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web2009
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Tone of sarcasm bukowski? mmmmm…not very civil of you…
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RebeccaJ
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How did everything come into existence?
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truthsilence
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Hi Erica,
Colossians 1:16 (King James Version)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
It says He created all things visible and invisible. Powers…everything.
So, I think God created energy.
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Realcatholicgk
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One God three persons. You can look at it either way. It is semantics
Do you want to really discuss the trinity? It is nonsense. Tell me what “being” and “nature” is. Tell me. I dare you. I notice you have dropped the DNA issue and now are on to your usual shotgun progression. Next will probably be polygamy. You are so predictible it is actually funny.
Hi mf,
**Feeling better? Don’t get upset, you say you are trying to do better! That is a good thing! I hope you stick around.
**Mine is about the Three persons of God. Let me just ask you: A****re any of the three persons of the God that you profess the “Original” God? By that I mean the God who was the Creator. Us Catholics call Him God, He is the Father, The son and The Holy Spirit one person! No one crreated Him. He is the Original God. Is your God the same God? If not how not? If so, why doesn’t the Mormon church agree with you? **
**If Mormons can become gods, isn’t that idolatry? Wouldn’t that be putting false gods before the real God? **
Can you tell me two truths that you believe bot no one could ever prove were false to you?
God Bless
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mfbukowski
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mfbukowski
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Have you ever experienced anything appearing out of nothing?
The question should be “how could there be nothing?” We can’t even conceive of the idea of nothingness. No time, no space, Nothing. I can’t even think like that. I can envision empty space, maybe like a room with the lights off and total darkness.
But Nothing? No space? How about No time? Nothing before or after aything else?
Yes, I know. It’s a Mystery.
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PaulDupre
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I’ve never before seen anyone try so hard not to understand another person’s POV.
Everyone else seems to get it, why don’t you? Could it be because you have been LDS so long that now you can only think in the terms in which the LDS Church allows you to think?
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mfbukowski
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Well then you get into conservation of matter or whatever it is. Nothing can be created or destroyed. Period. Have you ever seen anything created or destroyed absolutely? You never will either. I know. It’s a Mystery.
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mfbukowski
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Not at all – seriously. If you can understand the Trinity, you are smarter than I am. I just plain don’t get it at all. But that’s ok because it’s a Mystery, right?
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PaulDupre
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mf,
You know as well as I that the BOM view of God (modalist trinitarian) is not the view of the LDS church. The Joseph Smith version of multiple gods in multiple generations of gods taught since about August 1831 is directly at odds with the BOM One God in three persons. If you can’t see the obvious contradiction then I for one give up.
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Realcatholicgk
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What about the theory about perpetual energy? Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but is transferred from one medium to another…
Hi web,
It is a theory that can be disproved. God created everything! So He created Energy!
Does that not he support the mormon theory that we have always existed?
"We" existed from the second that the egg was fertilized by the sperm and divided into another Being with different DNA then the egg or the Sperm. At the second God reaches his hand into the womb of the Mother and inserts an eternal soul that He creates from nothing! That is why Human life is so precious. It is a Gift from God! “we” are not waiting for a body to be formed nor is there unlimited amount of souls waiting for bodies! God is still the Creator, he is still creating!
Erica, Mormons follow Joseph Smith and his teachings. They do not follow Jesus Christ and His teachings. Don’t get confused with lies, corrupted teachings and distorted beliefs! If they knew what they were talking about they would be Catholics!
God Bless
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mfbukowski
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Incidentally, I think what this means is that “he caused the universe to be”. Not out of nothing, but he caused it to be.Hi Erica,
Colossians 1:16 (King James Version)
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
It says He created all things visible and invisible. Powers…everything.
So, I think God created energy.
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RebeccaJ
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God has always existed. There wasn’t a time when he did not exist. Therefore, there wasn’t a time when there was nothing.
God created everything.
Do you think that you not understanding this makes it not so?
And you didn’t answer what I asked. Where did all this something that was never created come from? If God did not create time and space, who or what did?
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Randy_Carson
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Wow. You addressed ONE of the scriptures I presented as evidence that the Church cannot completely apostatize.
I’m so impressed by the strength of your argument…where is the local stake?
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Randy_Carson
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mfbukowski
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No, no one else gets it either. Are you telling me that it is NOT catholic doctrine that the trinity is a Mystery?I’ve never before seen anyone try so hard not to understand another person’s POV.
I have never understood it, no one can. That is one of the reasons I left Catholicism so it has nothing to do with being LDS.
If it were not for the LDS doctrine, which I do understand, I probably would not be any kind of trinitarian at all. My worship experience is that I am in direct communication with one individual who knows me and loves me and is supporting me and directing my life.
That experience is what I rely on. I think that that individual is Jesus Christ, whom I experience as my father, the Father of all our salvation(s) especially mine. To me, LDS doctrine is the only doctrine I have found which has a reasonable explanation how this can be. And additionally, it explains what I have always believed that creation ex nihilo is impossible, and that we can live forever and grow closer and closer and closer to God forever. I believe these to be true principles which have been revealed to me personally. I also know personally through revelation that faith in Jesus Christ can transform our lives from the inside out. He has totally changed my life in ways I cannot even tell you. It is nothing short of a miracle what has happend through Him in my life. You can do anything through faith in Jesus Christ. Anything. Period. Including become like Him through an incredible gift of grace he has given all of us.
I already see the replies: “But you are creating your own God when you should be relying on the Church”
Nonsense. Should I join a church I disagree with?
When God has revealed principles to you, I think it is a good idea to go with it.
And when God has told you something, you know it was God. Couldn’t be anybody else.
How do I know it was a true revelation? How do you know anything religious is true? Study it out in your mind which I did for 30 years before I found Jesus Christ, and then have it confirmed to you by the poweer of the Holy Ghost.
How can I be Mormon and you be catholic and we both have a witness of the spirit?
Because God takes us where we are and leads us to where we want to be. I have no problem with you being Catholic and having a true revelation that you should be.
Give me the same privilege.
I will be around, but really, there is nothing more to say. The rest is squabbling which I am really really really trying to avoid. I seriously need to repent.
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RebeccaJ
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And many ex Catholics return home.
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Realcatholicgk
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I’ve never before seen anyone try so hard not to understand another person’s POV.
**Hi paul,**
**Good Posts! :clapping: Several points I would have phased differently, but I think you got all the truths across.
mfbukowski:
…
**Paul, Now, not being the smartest guy here, I might be wrong about this, but I got a hunch mj is confused.**
**We both know that Truth doesn’t mix very well with false teachings. Remember he is following the teachings of a man, not of God! That must cause confusion by itself. He must ask himself, “Why am I following a human being’s faulty teachings, when God sent His only Son for us to Follow.” The Son left a real church here, 2,000 years ago, to teach His followers and it is still here! No wonder he is confused. **
**Lets pray for his soul, it isn’t too late he can be saved! **
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