Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[mfbukowski]

Question: Why are they always in pairs?

Buddy system. For their safety and yours.

And yes, many many Mormons are ex catholic

 

[mfbukowski]

Actually, no, I don’t. You just tried to pffft DNA evidence out of the way by claiming there were only 20 people. I’m not really sure of why you said this. In the context of DNA, DNA who’s got the DNA you have a very large group of people in the BoM who are descended from Laman, who was the son of Lehi, who is described as being of Jewish descent. Laman was married to Sariah, who is also of Jewish descent.

The D&C verses I posted (and there are more about Lamanites), clearly indicate these descendents were right there and that Mormons were sent by God to teach them. Or to remove to land that is on their border. I am sure you remember your US history and know that at the time of JS, the Missouri state line was the boundry to Indian lands.

The tribes known to have lived in these lands are the Caddo, Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Delaware, Illinois, Kickapoo, Osage, Ote-Missouria, Sauk-Fox, Shawnee and Tunica. If these people are the descendants of the Lamanites, their DNA should show Hebrew ancestry. I am sure you aware, they don’t.

Nope. Answered it already. Read the book of Jacob which already shows that he is referring to the Nephites as the “good guys” and the Lamanites as the “bad guys” because he couldn’t tell the difference between them anymore. The distinction is arbitrary in the BOM and definitely does not refer to ethnic groups. If you have read the BOM that becomes clear early on.

 

[mfbukowski]

Zerinus,

I have a sincere suggestion. Open that chapter of Ephesians, read it, and ask God to enlighten your mind about who and what that chapter is talking about. Hey, I’ll do the same. I’ll report back if you will.

This is a theologically interesting idea. As you probably know, Moroni 10 speaks of asking God about the truth of the Book of Mormon.

So you are arguing now as a Mormon would. And yes, he can tell you that both these passages are true. Perhaps not as you see them, but both can be confirmed that way as being his word.

 

[MEgus]

WOW! So many posts to respond to. Where do I begin?

I guess first, I can’t believe you guys think Abraham and Isaac and Jacob were all sinful men who were not following God’s commandments. Doesn’t seem to make sense to me at all.

Next, you really believe that the foundation is built on “one sent out”?

Eph. 2: 20
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

I think we need to look at that one a little more.

And as to DNA, that ought to be a thread in itself, but you can’t start with a false premise and come to correct conclusions and that is what the DNA folks have done.

Next, Apostasy, well, I’ll answer that and Galatians 1:8 on the next post.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

Was Galatians 1:8 talking about Joseph Smith?

The answer is YES, but not in the way you are looking at it. I will agree that the Gospel that Joseph Smith taught is different than any other Gospel preached on the earth right now.

But, it is the Same Gospel that Jesus preached and Peter preached and Paul preached.

It is the same one that was preached to Adam. The Same one Moses recorded for us in Genesis.

But a far different one than is taught by the churches of the World today. If you want to see an apostasy, just look at the teachings of Christ compared to what is taught today. I guess just as the scriptures teach, they have ears to hear but will not, and those with eyes to see but will not are all around us.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

Just a quick post on DNA.

First off, if you want to compare DNA of those in the Book of Mormon, you need to trace it back to Joseph. You can’t use those who descended from the tribe of Judah as a reference point, since Lehi and his family were descendants of Joseph.

In fact, Joseph and Judah didn’t even have the same mothers. And Ephraim and Manasseh has a mother who was an Egyptian. No one looks at that. They just get the results they want and take it as truth.

In fact, if you really want to look at DNA, you are only 10 generations to Noah, where all the people of the earth came from. You ever think of that?

Probably not.

Oh well, if it’s truth you want, you need to seek truth. If it’s justification for what you believe, it’s easy to twist anything into what you want.

MEgus (Seeker of truth where ever I can find it)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Just a quick post on DNA.

First off, if you want to compare DNA of those in the Book of Mormon, you need to trace it back to Joseph. You can’t use those who descended from the tribe of Judah as a reference point, since Lehi and his family were descendants of Joseph.

Joseph was the son of Rachel, Judah the son of Leah. Rachel and Leah were sisters and had the same mother. Regardless, Joseph or Judah, their DNA goes back to the same matriarchal line. And of course, to the middle east.

In fact, Joseph and Judah didn’t even have the same mothers. And Ephraim and Manasseh has a mother who was an Egyptian. No one looks at that. They just get the results they want and take it as truth.

Indeed, please look at the facts.

In fact, if you really want to look at DNA, you are only 10 generations to Noah, where all the people of the earth came from. You ever think of that?

Probably not.

Ever stop to notice the fact that the DNA studies show no ancestry of Native Americans to the middle east, anywhere?

Oh well, if it’s truth you want, you need to seek truth. If it’s justification for what you believe, it’s easy to twist anything into what you want.

MEgus (Seeker of truth where ever I can find it)

Continue seeking.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is a theologically interesting idea. As you probably know, Moroni 10 speaks of asking God about the truth of the Book of Mormon.

So you are arguing now as a Mormon would. And yes, he can tell you that both these passages are true. Perhaps not as you see them, but both can be confirmed that way as being his word.

:hypno: listen to bukowski :hypno:

The idea is to ask God, not tell people what you want them to hear.

And yeah, amazingly, people actually pray and believe God guides them. Lots of people, who aren’t Mormon.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Good for you! You have been reading. Yes, one God is made of three separate persons. That is what we believe, and you have it right there in black and white. It says it many places in the Book of Mormon. That is a big misconception that we are polytheists. Nobody seems to get this.

Muslims would say that Catholics are polytheists for believing in the trinity.

**
Hi mf,

Boy, the more I read about the Mormon cult the more I get confused. Do you actually believe you can become a god? Just like Jesus? How many gods are there going to be 144,000 ?? You sure have some explaining to do, as we say here in Texas! God may not understand any more then I do! And I am actually trying to see your point of view! There was One God he wasn’t a creation like the rest of us. Do you think Jesus was a creation of the One God? Is the HS a creation of the One God? Is your God the original One God which real Christians call the Trinity?

God(s)? Bless**

 

[MEgus]

Joseph was the son of Rachel, Judah the son of Leah. Rachel and Leah were sisters and had the same mother. Regardless, Joseph or Judah, their DNA goes back to the same matriarchal line. And of course, to the middle east.

Indeed, please look at the facts.

Ever stop to notice the fact that the DNA studies show no ancestry of Native Americans to the middle east, anywhere?

Continue seeking.

OK Rebecca, if you can show me the DNA study that takes the DNA back to Rachel and Leah’s mother I’ll go along with it.

The DNA they want to use from the Middle east is of only one line and only goes back to about the time of Christ in the present studies.

When we have DNA chains that take us to Noah so we can trace back down, then we can look at this. But for now, the studies do not.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

Boy, the more I read about the Mormon cult the more I get confused. Do you actually believe you can become a god? Just like Jesus?

The answer is NO, not like Jesus, but Yes, just as the scriptures say we can.

MEgus

 

[mfbukowski]

Hi mf,

Boy, the more I read about the Mormon cult the more I get confused. Do you actually believe you can become a god? Just like Jesus? How many gods are there going to be 144,000 ?? You sure have some explaining to do, as we say here in Texas! God may not understand any more then I do! And I am actually trying to see your point of view! There was One God he wasn’t a creation like the rest of us. Do you think Jesus was a creation of the One God? Is the HS a creation of the One God? Is your God the original One God which real Christians call the Trinity?

God(s)? Bless

Can you see how calling me a member of a cult and generally making fun of my religion makes me doubt that you are “actually trying to see my point of view”?

I would normally respond in kind to you, but I am trying again to turn over a new leaf. It is good practice for me to learn to hold my tongue, so insult me all you like everyone. It will be a great exercise for me.

Melanie Anne is especially good at getting me really angry, so I really would like to hear from her.

but I have a problem. If I don’t respond angrily, I won’t provoke you guys enough to make it a good test for my holding my tongue test. A serious problem.

 

[MEgus]

You know Real, I think we should take a little better look at this.

Have you read the first three chapters of Genesis?

What does that tell you about God? What does that tell you about Adam?

There is one thing about Scripture. Scripture is God’s revelation to man. Scripture has to agree with previous scripture. If it does not, then either the new scripture is untrue, or it is misunderstood. Most of the time it’s misunderstood.

Too often people read scripture from the middle and come to conclusions and then want to force those conclusions on the rest of scripture. God never intended that and has warned against that.

So, if you want to understand scripture, you should start with Genesis.

MEgus

 

[PaulDupre]

Joseph was the son of Rachel, Judah the son of Leah. Rachel and Leah were sisters and had the same mother. Regardless, Joseph or Judah, their DNA goes back to the same matriarchal line.

That’s correct. The geneticists looking at the Amerindians traced (among other genetic markers) their mitochondrial DNA (the DNA passed down from mother to daughter). The mitochondrial DNA traced back to a group of 6 women from Mongolia. These women apparently migrated across the Bering Straits during the last ice age about 10,000 years ago.

The PBS special that documented this project brought together three generations of Indian women from Peru, New Mexico and Alaska with their “cousins” from Mongolia, all of whom were descended from these same 6 women. It was amazing to see them all together, 3 generations from 4 different locales, and they really looked like family.

Amazing.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Can you see how calling me a member of a cult and generally making fun of my religion makes me doubt that you are “actually trying to see my point of view”?

I would normally respond in kind to you, but I am trying again to turn over a new leaf. It is good practice for me to learn to hold my tongue, so insult me all you like everyone. It will be a great exercise for me.

Melanie Anne is especially good at getting me really angry, so I really would like to hear from her.

but I have a problem. If I don’t respond angrily, I won’t provoke you guys enough to make it a good test for my holding my tongue test. A serious problem.

**Hi mf,

I am sorry, was there and answer there somewhere? The dictionary defination of a cult is a group with an unorthodox belief system.
Work with me here. Do you think your belief system is orthodox? No one else does :ehh: 61,000 Protestant groups and the Catholic church doesn’t, and as I am sure you must know we rarely agree on very much! So please don’t avoid my questions!Which I restate so I can learn the truth as you know it!

I asked: Do you actually believe you can become a god? Just like Jesus? How many gods are there going to be 144,000 ?? You sure have some explaining to do, as we say here in Texas! God may not understand any more then I do! And I am actually trying to see your point of view! There was One God he wasn’t a creation like the rest of us. Do you think Jesus was a creation of the One God? Is the HS a creation of the One God? Is your God the original One God which real Christians call the Trinity?

God(s) Bless**

 

[RebeccaJ]

OK Rebecca, if you can show me the DNA study that takes the DNA back to Rachel and Leah’s mother I’ll go along with it.

The DNA they want to use from the Middle east is of only one line and only goes back to about the time of Christ in the present studies.

When we have DNA chains that take us to Noah so we can trace back down, then we can look at this. But for now, the studies do not.

MEgus

You seem to not understand the DNA studies. Please see Paul’s post above.

It doesn’t matter where the DNA to the middle east has been traced to, the point is, tracing population migration using DNA shows that the migration to the Amerias took place from Mongolia, not the middle east. NO DNA has been traced to the middle east. none. zero.

 

[MEgus]

If we study Genesis, a good way to do that is to look at it from it’s original language. Hebrew.

1:1
Bereshit bara Elohim et hashamayim ve’et ha’arets.
1:2
Veha’arets hayetah tohu vavohu vechoshech al-peney tehom veruach Elohim merachefet al-peney hamayim.
1:3
Vayomer Elohim yehi-or vayehi-or.
1:4
Vayar Elohim et-ha’or ki-tov vayavdel Elohim beyn ha’or uveyn hachoshech.

Now, here’s the translation of these first 4 verses into English from Hebrew.

1:1 In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth.

1:2 The earth was without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depths, but Elohim’s spirit moved on the water’s surface.

1:3 Elohim said, ‘There shall be light,’ and light came into existence.

1:4 Elohim saw that the light was good, and Elohim divided between the light and the darkness.

One very interesting thing to note here, is there is not a word in the original Hebrew that signifies a deity, but it gives us the word Elohim. If we study Hebrew, we find that Elohim is a word that signifies “Council of God’s, with El as the God above all God’s”

So, what we have is a group of God’s who are forming the earth and all things in the earth Spiritually.

Now, let’s move on.

1:5
Vayikra Elohim la-or yom velachoshech kara laylah vayehi-erev vayehi-voker yom echad.
1:6
Vayomer Elohim yehi rakia betoch hamayim vyhi mavdil beyn mayim lamayim.
1:7
Vaya’as Elohim et-harakia vayavdel beyn hamayim asher mitachat larakia uveyn hamayim asher me’al larakia vayehi-chen.
1:8
Vayikra Elohim la-rakia shamayim vayehi-erev vayehi-voker yom sheni.
1:9
Vayomer Elohim yikavu hamayim mitachat hashamayim el-makom echad vetera’eh hayabashah vayehi chen.
1:10
Vayikra Elohim layabashah erets ulemikveh hamayim kara yamim vayar Elohim ki-tov.
1:11
Vayomer Elohim tadshe ha’arets deshe esev mazria zera ets pri oseh peri lemino asher zar’o-vo al-ha’arets vayehi-chen.

Translation into english:

1:5 Elohim named the light ‘Day,’ and the darkness He named ‘Night.’ It was evening and it was morning, one day.
1:6 Elohim said, ‘There shall be a sky in the middle of the water, and it shall divide between water and water.’
1:7 Elohim [thus] made the sky, and it separated the water below the sky from the water above the sky. It remained that way.
1:8 Elohim named the sky ‘Heaven.’ It was evening and it was morning, a second day.
1:9 Elohim said, ‘The waters under the heaven shall be gathered to one place, and dry land shall be seen.’ It happened.
1:10 Elohim named the dry land ‘Earth,’ and the gatherings of water, He named ‘Seas.’ God saw that it was good.
1:11 Elohim said, ‘The earth shall send forth vegetation. Seedbearing plants and fruit trees that produce their own kinds of fruits with seeds shall be on the earth.’ It happened.

You notice, for the most part, this is very close to the Bible Scriptures we have, with the exception that the word Elohim has been replaced with the word God.

More to come.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hi ME,

you know Real, I think we should take a little better look at this.

Have you read the first three chapters of Genesis?

** Hundreds of times I even taught them! **

What does that tell you about God? What does that tell you about Adam?
**
That God created everything. That there is one only God, That He always was, always will be, and always remains the same! Nothing more, nothing less! **

There is one thing about Scripture. Scripture is God’s revelation to man. Scripture has to agree with previous scripture. If it does not, then either the new scripture is untrue, or it is misunderstood. Most of the time it’s misunderstood.

** Only willful ignorance or intellectual dishonesty could account for the claim that the Bible is inerrant and infallible. For someone to invest the Bible with the qualities of inerrancy and infallibility would be to in fact to idolatrize it, to transform it into a false god. Anyone who affirms that the Bible is the Word of God implies that the words of the Bible are the words of God. Such simplistic and absolute terms divest the Bible altogether of its humanity and remove it from the relativism of the historical process. No one can seriously claim all the words of the Bible are the very words of God. If someone does so it is only because that person is not willing thoroughly to explore its implications.**

Too often people read scripture from the middle and come to conclusions and then want to force those conclusions on the rest of scripture. God never intended that and has warned against that.

So, if you want to understand scripture, you should start with Genesis.

** Me, your above statement reminded me of a wiser one: “Look, that’s what comes under the theological classification of happy horse manure! Got it, that’s what that is. That’s bologna, absolute bologna!” ~ Fr John Corapi**

**
If you want to understand scripture you should start with the Catholic church, and its teachings! Then you could find Jessie and eternal salvation! “The Bible, Tradition, and the Magisterium, no one of them can subsist without the other two” - Fr John Corapi

God Bless
**

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why would I go to a Mormon to understand Hebrew?

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

“Pains are taken to refute the arguments based on the grammatical plurals employed in Biblical texts when referring to God. “Elohim” does not designate a plurality of deities. The very context shows this, as the verbs in the predicate are in the singular.”

 

[PaulDupre]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.