Mormon - Beliefs - A civil Discussion Please

[mfbukowski]

mf, o that just doesn’t feel right, but, as you wish )

So, Wikipedia. What? Is this your answer to my question to MEgus?

Yeah, I know – MEgus is more than capable of taking this further, I was just sticking my nose in where it wasn’t wanted. I am not crazy about Wikipedia either – I just wanted to establish that the view is pretty commonly held. But who knows who wrote it or how many (name removed by moderator)uts there were on this topic.

 

[truthsilence]

Yeah, I know – MEgus is more than capable of taking this further, I was just sticking my nose in where it wasn’t wanted. I am not crazy about Wikipedia either – I just wanted to establish that the view is pretty commonly held. But who knows who wrote it or how many (name removed by moderator)uts there were on this topic.

What view? Thats what I’m asking.

 

[mfbukowski]

What view? Thats what I’m asking.

I don’t want to misstate it because it is Megus’s point, but generally I thought we were discussing the term “Eloheim” and why it was plural, and the implications of that.

 

[PaulDupre]

I don’t want to misstate it because it is Megus’s point, but generally I thought we were discussing the term “Eloheim” and why it was plural, and the implications of that.

Simple - the word Elohim is plural to denote the plural (3) persons (not beings) that make up the one God. In Genesis, the “us” in “Let us make man in our image and likeness” is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[truthsilence]

Simple - the word Elohim is plural to denote the plural (3) persons (not beings) that make up the one God. In Genesis, the “us” in “Let us make man in our image and likeness” is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Exactly.

Also, as the Wiki article mf posted mentions:
"In other cases, Elohim acts as an ordinary plural of the word Eloah (אלוה), and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (for example, Exodus 20:3, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”).

And we know those other “gods” are not God at all.

 

[MEgus]

MEgus,

I don’t understand, in the reading of Genesis, how you are getting that the Earth was created ‘spiritually’ before it was created ‘physically’.

Also, from what I’ve gathered of the Hebrew language, (of which I personally know zero I admit) is that, where Adonai and Yhwh occur together the latter, was pronounced “Elohim.”

So you are pursuing a plurality of God’s with this, correct? The Jewish Faith is monotheistic as you know. I think if these Hebrew words denote a plurality of God’s, the people who actually speak the language would know it.

Peace,
Tami

Tami,

First, Yhwh and Elohim are different. Yhwh is where the text says Adonai. You can look down at the hebrew and see when it says Adonai and Elohim together that they are two different hebrew words and that is why we get the two.

Now, as to the Spiritual creation before the Physical one.

2:2 With the seventh day, **Elohim **finished all the work that He had done. He [thus] ceased on the seventh day from all the work that He had been doing.

So, we see that the work in Genesis 1 has been finished, completed. Right?

Do we have a world? With plants and Animals? And Man?

Let’s look:

2:5 All the wild shrubs did not yet exist on the earth, and all the wild plants had not yet sprouted. This was because Adonay Elohim had not brought rain on the earth, and there was no man to work the ground.

You see, this is talking about the physical creation. We can look back up a little as well. Is this verse talking about something already done? Or about something to be done?

2:4
These are the chronicles of heaven and earth when they were created, on the day Adonay(Yhwh) Elohim **created earth and heaven. **

If you read the rest of Chapter two, you will see they are creating again. This is the physical creation and was being created by Yhwh. By the way, Yhwh is Jesus Christ if you didn’t know.

Now, I’m not trying to get at anything except the truth. I am just reading and studying to gain knowledge and understanding, like we all should be.

MEgus

 

[truthsilence]

Tami,

First, Yhwh and Elohim are different. Yhwh is where the text says Adonai. You can look down at the hebrew and see when it says Adonai and Elohim together that they are two different hebrew words and that is why we get the two.

Now, as to the Spiritual creation before the Physical one.

2:2 With the seventh day, **Elohim **finished all the work that He had done. He [thus] ceased on the seventh day from all the work that He had been doing.

So, we see that the work in Genesis 1 has been finished, completed. Right?

Do we have a world? With plants and Animals? And Man?

Let’s look:

2:5 All the wild shrubs did not yet exist on the earth, and all the wild plants had not yet sprouted. This was because Adonay Elohim had not brought rain on the earth, and there was no man to work the ground.

You see, this is talking about the physical creation. We can look back up a little as well. Is this verse talking about something already done? Or about something to be done?

2:4
These are the chronicles of heaven and earth when they were created, on the day Adonay(Yhwh) Elohim **created earth and heaven. **

If you read the rest of Chapter two, you will see they are creating again. This is the physical creation and was being created by Yhwh. By the way, Yhwh is Jesus Christ if you didn’t know.

Now, I’m not trying to get at anything except the truth. I am just reading and studying to gain knowledge and understanding, like we all should be.

MEgus

Hi MEgus,

I am glad you are trying to get at the truth. I believe we all are, or if not, yes, we should be, or else we should probably find another “hobby”. Because this could go nowhere if that were the case.

As far as I can tell, the name YHWH" (Adonai) is translated Lord, and the name Elohim is translated God. So together we have ‘Lord God’. And then we have:

Deuteronomy 6:4 (King James Version)

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

So, I don’t agree that the two are “different” if you mean to say that they are separate God’s.

On the creation. Earth and World are the same thing. In Chpt 1 verse 1 the answer is yes, we already have a world. The scripture from there is continuing from the creation of the world itself, to all things living on the world. Thats how I read it anyway.

Peace,
Tami

 

[truthsilence]

MEgus,

One more thing. In reading your post again, I realize you are looking at the second creation account. Do you realize there are two? The second account starts in Chapter 2 verse 4.

The second creation narrative is much older than the first one and is chiefly concerned with the creation of man. Here man is placed before all other creatures whereas in the first, man is presented as the climax of God’s creative activity.

I still don’t see that there is a spiritual creation before a physical one. Not at all.

Good night.

Tami

 

[mfbukowski]

Exactly.

Also, as the Wiki article mf posted mentions:
"In other cases, Elohim acts as an ordinary plural of the word Eloah (אלוה), and refers to the polytheistic notion of multiple gods (for example, Exodus 20:3, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”).

And we know those other “gods” are not God at all.

But note that it says “IN OTHER CASES…” not the case at hand, so the case at hand does not refer to false Gods.

Just clarifying. But it’s still wikipedia.

 

[truthsilence]

But note that it says “IN OTHER CASES…” not the case at hand, so the case at hand does not refer to false Gods.

Just clarifying. But it’s still wikipedia.

Yeah, in the first case its referring to the Trinity. But tell that to the Jews who believe there can’t be a Trinity because there’s only One God.

Wonder if Rebecca’s got that article on the gold star gospel up on Wikipedia yet? :bluelite:

 

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, in the first case its referring to the Trinity. But tell that to the Jews who believe there can’t be a Trinity because there’s only One God.

Wonder if Rebecca’s got that article on the gold star gospel up on Wikipedia yet? :bluelite:

OOOPS. You slipped… only One God? You mean there’s more than one?

 

[truthsilence]

OOOPS. You slipped… only One God? You mean there’s more than one?

No I didn’t slip. I knew exactly what I was saying. The Jews don’t believe in the Trinity because they believe there is only One God. Christians believe there *is *One God, but it has been revealed (ultimately at Christ’s coming but there are references throughout scripture) that there are Three Persons in One God. And I thought you said you believe that too?

 

[truthsilence]

Originally Posted by **truthsilence **
I read through what you wrote. You need to understand, we believe in One God in Three Persons. So Genesis does not pose a problem, even when it refers to “us” and “our”. What we do not believe in, is a plurality of Gods, .

I stopped there because I wanted to say “I believe that too”… And I do!

That’s what the BOM says - One God, three persons.

 

[mfbukowski]

No I didn’t slip. I knew exactly what I was saying. The Jews don’t believe in the Trinity because they believe there is only One God. Christians believe there *is *One God, but it has been revealed (ultimately at Christ’s coming but there are references throughout scripture) that there are Three Persons in One God. And I thought you said you believe that too?

I do, it’s just the semantics as far as I am concerned, and I was trying to pull your leg a little on that point. For a nanosecond you sounded like a polytheist in the same way we are polytheists, which is not at all.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Uh oh, it happened again. We posted the same answer to the same post. Scary stuff.

That’s because Tami is always right. :egyptian:

 

[truthsilence]

That’s because Tami is always right. :egyptian:

:kiss4you:

 

[mfbukowski]

That’s because Tami is always right. :egyptian:

But **I **want to take credit for it! You guys are spoil sports!

 

[MEgus]

Hi MEgus,

I am glad you are trying to get at the truth. I believe we all are, or if not, yes, we should be, or else we should probably find another “hobby”. Because this could go nowhere if that were the case.

As far as I can tell, the name YHWH" (Adonai) is translated Lord, and the name Elohim is translated God. So together we have ‘Lord God’. And then we have:

Deuteronomy 6:4 (King James Version)

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

So, I don’t agree that the two are “different” if you mean to say that they are separate God’s.

On the creation. Earth and World are the same thing. In Chpt 1 verse 1 the answer is yes, we already have a world. The scripture from there is continuing from the creation of the world itself, to all things living on the world. Thats how I read it anyway.

Peace,
Tami

Tami,

If you want to say Elohim is God, and YHWH" (Adonai) is translated Lord I can go along with that.

However, your falling into the same problem with scripture that everyone else seems to do. You are taking something that comes later and then molding earlier scripture to fit that current interpretation. This is what causes people to err and not understand scripture. The first scripture takes precedence. Later scripture has to adhere to the first, not the other way around.

And again, I am not trying to imply anything here. I am trying to study the first, to gain understanding of what I should use as I study latter scripture.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

MEgus,

One more thing. In reading your post again, I realize you are looking at the second creation account. Do you realize there are two? The second account starts in Chapter 2 verse 4.

The second creation narrative is much older than the first one and is chiefly concerned with the creation of man. Here man is placed before all other creatures whereas in the first, man is presented as the climax of God’s creative activity.

I still don’t see that there is a spiritual creation before a physical one. Not at all.

Good night.

Tami

Do I realize there are two? Absolutely! That is what I am trying to show. There are two creation accounts.

Now, you say the second is older than the first? Why?

Why would God give Moses a latter Creation and then go back and give him one that happened much earlier? And why would he give us that?

It does not hold water Tami. The first creation happened first, and the second happened second. Just as God has given them to us.

MEgus

 

[MEgus]

Tami,

I’ve been thinking. Are you one of those people who believe that God created the world in 7 days?

Or are you one who believes he created the world in 7 1000 year days?

Or 7 periods of time?

I would just like to know as we discuss things here.

MEgus