Mormon Bishops - an exclusive club?

[Marie5890]

Mormons do not have to prove that what they give in tithes is indeed 10%…

That is on the honor system.

One is asked during tithing settlement if they are a full tithe payer. One answers “yes” or “no”…end of question. It is left to one conscience whether or not they are telling the truth…

No documentation needed.

 

[twopekinguys]

We do? I’ve been attending tithing settlement yearly for going on 15 years now. Nobody has ever done such a thing with me. The bishop asks “are you a full tithe payer”, and I give an answer. It’s been a one-word answer - Yes.

What on earth are you talking about, twopekinguys? What ‘going over’ do you think happens? And why has it never happened to me?

That’s what I’ve gotten too.

See what iepuras said.

Also, if you check some of the older threads, you will see that many, many bishops go much further into peoples finances during TR interviews, and tithing settlements.

Doesn’t happen in the Catholic Church. We don’t have to “pay to pray” so to speak.

 

[TexanKnight]

See what iepuras said.

Also, if you check some of the older threads, you will see that many, many bishops go much further into peoples finances during TR interviews, and tithing settlements.

Doesn’t happen in the Catholic Church. We don’t have to “pay to pray” so to speak.

I had several bishops over my time as LDS. Only two that I recall asked for more proof of my tithing than just a yes or no answer.

 

[lax16]

I’ve been reading my CAF forums lately to hear what Catholics think about tithing.

How come the Catholic Answers Forum staff use the phrase “obligatory” when talking about the Catholic church’s position on tithing? Can one be obliged to do something that is totally voluntary?

Hi NeuroTypical,

Our friends used to tell us about “fasting Sunday” and they would give money to a boy(s) that came to their house collecting the money that they saved by fasting that day.

Is that optional? (In their Utah County neighborhood the boys would go door-to-door since most of the people in the neighborhood were Mormon, if not all).

They made it seem that it was a designated Sunday for all and that they had to give the money to the kids who came to the door. In other words, not optional.

Also, what is the “fasting Sunday” money used for?

 

[Miriam1947]

I’ve been reading my CAF forums lately to hear what Catholics think about tithing.

How come the Catholic Answers Forum staff use the phrase “obligatory” when talking about the Catholic church’s position on tithing? Can one be obliged to do something that is totally voluntary?

We are obligated as Catholics to give as we can to the upkeep of our local parish. If you have no money to give because you need all you have to support your family, no one in the church will stand at the door and tell you that you cannot come in. No priest will tell you that you are not worthy to receive communion. And when you die you will not be judged because you are poor.

In the LDS it is different. You must tithe in order to get the TR. If you do not have a TR and have not done your endowments you will not go to the CK and not become a god and rule over your own planet with all the spiritual babies that you and your plural wives conceive. Because let’s face it, polygamy is alive and well in the CK.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Hi lax16,

Our friends used to tell us about “fasting Sunday” and they would give money to a boy(s) that came to their house collecting the money that they saved by fasting that day.

Is that optional?

Fast offerings are the backbone of the church’s welfare system. Yes, they’re optional (meaning there is no question about them to enter the temple). Here’s the deal: One Sunday a month, members fast for two meals. The money which would have paid for these meals, is given to the church. The church administers fast offering funds to pay for welfare needs of the members who are at a place in their lives where they cannot meet their own expenses. Unemployed folks with pressing bills, unaffordable marriage counseling, medical bills, food needs, etc. Funds are administered by the Bishop, who works with recipients to become self-sufficient. It’s how we temporally care for our poor and needy.

They made it seem that it was a designated Sunday for all and that they had to give the money to the kids who came to the door. In other words, not optional.

Oh, it’s totally optional. I was that kid for 2-3 years back in the '80’s. I would visit the members in my area, and hand them a church newsletter and a tithing/fast offering envelope, and ask them if they wanted to hand me back an envelope to give to the bishop. That’s all. From what I understand, there are similarities to taking collection in some Catholic services, in that the offering is voluntary, but no matter how voluntary it is, someone still puts a plate in front of you specifically, and you choose one way or the other.

 

[iepuras]

Hi NeuroTypical,

Our friends used to tell us about “fasting Sunday” and they would give money to a boy(s) that came to their house collecting the money that they saved by fasting that day.

Is that optional? (In their Utah County neighborhood the boys would go door-to-door since most of the people in the neighborhood were Mormon, if not all).

They made it seem that it was a designated Sunday for all and that they had to give the money to the kids who came to the door. In other words, not optional.

Also, what is the “fasting Sunday” money used for?

Each month, the LDS church fasts and the members are encouraged to donate the cost of the skipped meals to the fast offering fund. The fast offerings are supposedly used to help poor members of the church. Fast offerings are optional in that they are not required to obtain a temple recommend; however, it is very difficult to say no when two 12-13 year old boys show up on your door step.

Other than a stint at BYU, I lived outside of Utah where Mormons are few and far between. I had teenage boys show up on my doorstep to collect fast offerings once or twice. The ward I was in was trying to do it like they do in Utah, but it didn’t stick. The parents and leaders were not too keen on driving the boys all over town. I have always paid fast offerings with my tithing and marked it as fast offering on the tithing slip.

Last year, the LDS church started using a new tithing slip (attached below). It made its way to my former ward in January of this year. The old slip had lots of lines so that members could donate to funds that have a specific purpose (i.e., Book of Mormon printing fund, temple construction fund, perpetual education fund, etc). The most disturbing thing that stood out to me on the new slip was the new language at the bottom.

“Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church’s property and will be used at the Church’s sole discretion to further the Church’s overall mission.”

Needless to say, I stopped paying tithing or any other offering to the LDS church after I saw this language. This language indicates that the LDS church doesn’t care what you designate the donations for. They will ultimately decide how a member’s tithes and offerings will be used. So any fast offerings that are donated with the intention to help the poor, may not be used for that purpose.

 

[NeuroTypical]

In the LDS it is different. You must tithe in order to get the TR. If you do not have a TR and have not done your endowments you will not go to the CK and not become a god and rule over your own planet with all the spiritual babies that you and your plural wives conceive. Because let’s face it, polygamy is alive and well in the CK.

For the record again, the only time I ever hear phrases like “rule over your own planet with all the spiritual babies that you and your plural wives conceive”, it’s from some critic of my faith telling me what I believe.

You’d think that if it was such a core doctrine, some mormon would have mentioned it to me at some point, or put it in a lesson, or something.

Miriam, I’m not feeling the love from you. It feels like you’re mocking my beliefs - dressing them up as something they’re not. My beliefs on “being a god” begin and end with Christ’s statements in scripture - how He has inherited everything the Father hath, and how His disciples become joint heirs with Him. It’s not something I’m greedily rubbing my hands together about and drooling over when I consider it. It’s something scripture tells me, so I accept it. I don’t know what it will look like. I don’t know what it will mean. I don’t speculate. Other mormons have - but speculation isn’t doctrine.

And I’m happy with the one wife, thank you. I wish she was happy with me more.

 

[SteveVH]

Regarding the qualifications to enter the temple, in LDS-speak “worthy” means you’re keeping enough of the commandments, as opposed to “perfection” which means never sinning. Perfection is not a requirement for admittance to the temple, but there are certain expectations.

I am just trying to imagine any instance where my Church would designate and segregate some as worthy and some as unworthy, in any aspect of the word, forget perfection. And the fact that this “worthiness” is judged by men rather than by God is the height of elitism, in my view.

 

[NeuroTypical]

it is very difficult to say no when two 12-13 year old boys show up on your door step.

Back in the '80’s, maybe about 10% of the folks I visited gave me back an envelope. For that matter, I actually had better luck fundraising at the March of Dime’s Superwalk, where I actually asked people flat out “would you be willing to donate”?

 

[iepuras]

For the record again, the only time I ever hear phrases like “rule over your own planet with all the spiritual babies that you and your plural wives conceive”, it’s from some critic of my faith telling me what I believe.

You’d think that if it was such a core doctrine, some mormon would have mentioned it to me at some point, or put it in a lesson, or something.

Miriam, I’m not feeling the love from you. It feels like you’re mocking my beliefs - dressing them up as something they’re not. My beliefs on “being a god” begin and end with Christ’s statements in scripture - how He has inherited everything the Father hath, and how His disciples become joint heirs with Him. It’s not something I’m greedily rubbing my hands together about and drooling over when I consider it. It’s something scripture tells me, so I accept it.

And I’m happy with the one wife, thank you. I wish she was happy with me more.

I suggest having a heart to heart conversation with a woman in a young single adult ward, if she was even willing to talk about it. I talked about this with my female LDS friends during our single days. We all believed that we would end up being “given” to a man as his plural wife to have spirit babies. I even had this conversation with some married women in one of the wards I attended. Not one woman was happy at the prospect of being “given” to a man or having to share her husband. All they do is “hope that they will understand it and be ok with it in the celestial kingdom”. My mother feels the same way. I know my mother has shed many tears over it as have I.

In all honestly, whenever I contemplated my eternal destiny as a woman in the LDS church, it depressed me.

The logical conclusion of LDS doctrine is what Miriam described and the vast majority of LDS I know believe it whether they are happy with the idea or not. The thing is that most LDS are unwilling to think or talk about it because it is rather depressing at least if one is a woman.

 

[NeuroTypical]

Well, iepuras, I’m raising two daughters. I hear your experiences. Because of what you’re saying here, I’ll put forth extra effort to make sure neither daughter is taught such depressing nonsense, and I’m sorry that so many in your circle believed it.

The LDS notion that you can stay married to your beloved spouse for eternity, rather than parting ways at death, is comforting and desirable. Such a notion demands answers to the ‘what if’ questions, but I have better answers than you internalized.

Catholics figure you don’t stay married after death, correct? From what I’ve been told by Catholics, as created beings, we just change our natures to something else where our earthly ties to our spouses just aren’t really meaningful to us any more. Being in God’s presence and worshiping Him face to face sort of makes everything else just go away. Have I been told correctly?

 

[TexanKnight]

I have heard different things on this. I have heard there are no marriages in heaven. I also have heard that the Bible says no one will be GIVEN in marriage, meaning, possibly, that there are no NEW marriages in heaven.

I can tell you, of all the LDS teachings, the one I like the most is the forever marriage. I love my wife and can’t imagine living without her, ever. How can o\it be heaven if she is not my wife? Why would God give her to me then take her away?

 

[Marie5890]

“Though reasonable efforts will be made globally to use donations as designated, all donations become the Church’s property and will be used at the Church’s sole discretion to further the Church’s overall mission.”

I always, with great love and joy, gave a generous fast offering because I had, at one time, had need of the LDS Church’s welfare system. It was very generous to me, a then-Mormon, and my family, non-Mormons. I will never forget that kindness

This new line would have refraining on the slip would have me pausing now.

 

[eddie_too]

it is Jessu who taught us that there is no giving or taking in marriage in heaven. He told us that we become as the angels with no need to have a husband or wife. if your spouse is in heaven with you, your love and his or her reciprocation of that love would continue, but marriage, as we conceive it here on earth, does not exist.

as i always try to do, i accept what Jesus taught us about heaven and marriage.

 

[TexanKnight]

not giving is different than already having.

I saw no teaching in the Bible that says already people will not stay married. I just saw that there will be no new marriages in heaven

And as to need in heaven, there is no NEED to have a spouse now. I can;t imagine God taking back such a precious gift He has already given me.

 

[eddie_too]

marriage ends at mortal death. that is why a validly married person can re-marry after the death of their spouse. if marriage did not end with mortal death, polygamy, polyandry or communal marriages would be the result when a person re-marries after the death of a spouse.

 

[TexanKnight]

if life does not truly end, why should marriage?

Love goes beyond the grave…right?

Anyway, you can believe what you choose. I love my wife too much to want to believe your way.

If I am wrong…then I am wrong. I just believe in a God too loving to do that to people who love each other. Family relationships apparently go past death, so why not loving spouses?

I get that none are GIVEN in marriage. Don;t want one given…just wanna keep what I got.

 

[eddie_too]

in what context did Jesus us teach us the concept that marriage ends at the death of one of the spouses?

remember the situation the pharisees created in an attempt to trap Jesus?

the man who had six brothers, each of whom married the same woman after a brother already married to the woman died?

the presented this scenario and then asked Jesus whose wife she would be after the resurrection of the dead.

 

[iepuras]

Well, iepuras, I’m raising two daughters. I hear your experiences. Because of what you’re saying here, I’ll put forth extra effort to make sure neither daughter is taught such depressing nonsense, and I’m sorry that so many in your circle believed it.

The LDS notion that you can stay married to your beloved spouse for eternity, rather than parting ways at death, is comforting and desirable. Such a notion demands answers to the ‘what if’ questions, but I have better answers than you internalized.

Catholics figure you don’t stay married after death, correct? From what I’ve been told by Catholics, as created beings, we just change our natures to something else where our earthly ties to our spouses just aren’t really meaningful to us any more. Being in God’s presence and worshiping Him face to face sort of makes everything else just go away. Have I been told correctly?

Sorry, but it is not depressing nonsense or speculation. It was not limited to “my circle”. I had frank conversations with LDS women from other parts of the country I barely knew and they believed the same as I. These beliefs are not uncommon; however, they are not frequently discussed, especially with men. Everywhere I have lived, there have been LDS members from all over the country and the world. Whenever I discussed marriage and polygamy with other LDS women, our beliefs were consistent. These beliefs come from teachings on marriage in the LDS church, D&C 132 and teachings of LDS prophets. So are you saying that you have better teachings than LDS prophets? Pray tell, what are they?

Sorry, but if one of your daughers spends a lot of time as a young single adult, she may start thinking about these things more. The LDS church teaches that if one is faithful, not one blessing will be withheld from that person, including marriage. I was consistently taught (starting in Young Women’s) that if a woman does not marry in this life, she will be married in the celestial kingdom (so long as she is worthy of course). Maybe this means that the single women will be married to single men who were killed in war or something. I don’t know, but most of the women believe that they will end up as someone’s plural wife. There is a fear in the back of the minds of many, if not most, LDS women that they will have to share their husbands in the celestial kingdom. I look at all my beautiful little nieces who are being raised Mormon and I weep for them.

The problem with polygamy/plural wives is that women cannot be equal to men in order for it to work. Women have to be less then men to allow plural wives.

I love my husband and I hope that we are both in heaven together with our children. It doesn’t bother me in the least that our marriage ends at death. The LDS teaching of eternal families doesn’t provide much comfort to me because it is all contigent on everyone making it to the celestial kingdom. I believe that in heaven, my husband and I will have a special relationship with each other but it won’t be like earthly marriage. We will remember our works in this life, including our married life. Yes, our natures will be changed. We will not change them. God will change our natures so that we can participate in his divine nature and life.

In the LDS church, it always bothered me that I was expected to marry. For most of my life, I never thought that marriage and family life was for me. I love my husband and children to death. In all honesty, if I had found my way to the Catholic Church before I got married, I would have seriously looked into entering religious life. Even when I was LDS, I really admired Catholic nuns and sisters and thought that if I were Catholic, I would want to join them. Not everyone is made for or called to marriage and family life. LDS teachings ignore that fact. Catholicism acknowledges it and embraces both married and single life.