Mormon Claims

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on another thread, Evan posted a list of things from another site that he believes proves the Catholic Church lost its way. It was not on topic, so I moved it here to discuss…

The Jews also have a similar claim. This is what Jesus said about it:

“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

Jewish people can also trace their Priestly Aaronic lineage! They can also trace their genealogy back to Abraham! They were proud of it! Look what Christ said about it:

“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

Catholics do not have prophets…look what the scriptures say about it:

For “surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7)

The Catholic Church does not have the foundation, which is apostles and prophets!

“built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (Ephesians 2:20)

The Catholic Church does not resemble the Church Christ founded! It is a much different organization!

“And he gave some, Apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.” (Ephesians 4:11-14)

Catholic Church is a product of the apostasy of the Church Christ established.

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” II Tess 2:3

The Lord allowed the Saints (members of the Church of Christ) be defeated!

"As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them Dan 7:21

The Church falls into an apostasy for a period of time:

“The woman (Church) fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.” Rev 12:6

Christ and the Apostles talk about a restoration of everything before the second coming of Christ:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. " Acts 3:19-21

“Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.” (Matthew 17:3-13)

What did Jesus mean when He said that John the Baptist was Elias, even though Elijah and Moses had just appeared? The angel Gabriel told John’s father that he would “go before him [Christ] in the spirit and power of Elias . . . .” (Luke 1:17) Therefore, it must be that certain people who are called of God to be forerunners of the Kingdom, as John was, act in the “spirit and power of Elias.”

This principle must apply to other prophets as well as John, for Jesus not only said that “Elias has come already,” but also that “Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.” Thus, a restoration would still be needed in the future, just as Latter-day Saints have proclaimed. Noting the many persons the revelations of Joseph Smith identify as “Elias,” modern Apostle Bruce R. McConkie summarized the LDS doctrine: "Elias is a composite personage. The expression must be understood to be a name and a title for those whose mission it was to commit keys and powers to men in this final dispensation."124 And as with the Lord’s first advent, Latter-day Saints believe that Elijah himself was one of the heavenly visitors who appeared to Joseph Smith (as well as Oliver Cowdery) to restore the original “keys and powers.” (See D&C 110

The scriptures are clear about a restoration of everything…How can there be a restoration if there is no apostasy? Restoration is a consequence of a total apostasy!
 
Point 1:

The Jews also have a similar claim. This is what Jesus said about it:

“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

Jewish people can also trace their Priestly Aaronic lineage! They can also trace their genealogy back to Abraham! They were proud of it! Look what Christ said about it:

“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

Yes, the Jews, in the OT, had that claim. That was changed when Jesus came. However, if your point is true, then the LDS Church is false as well.
 
Point 2. The True Church must have Prophets and Apostles, etc.

Catholics do not have prophets…look what the scriptures say about it:

For “surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7)

The Catholic Church does not have the foundation, which is apostles and prophets!

“built upon the foundation of the Apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (Ephesians 2:20)

The Catholic Church does not resemble the Church Christ founded! It is a much different organization!

“And he gave some, Apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.” (Ephesians 4:11-14)

Does Amos 3:7 really speak as a guide forever? No. Taken in context (and not split apart from the chapter) Amos is giving a litany of things that he sees as definites in HIS day, what lions do, what things do, etc. It is not meant to be an exposition on the future, but what he has seen in the past.

In Ephesions 2, Paul is looking at the past. He say in verse 17, “for he came and preached to you…” This was in the past. And then Paul goes on to state how it had been built. NOWHERE does Paul say it would be that way on into the future.

In Ephesians 4, Paul is talking about gifts given what what they were. It was not a blueprint for the future Church.

In all these examples, what the LDS is famous for doing is taking a verse out of context and developing a doctrine around it. When read in context, rarely does it mean what they want it to mean.

What Even does not realize is that Catholic Bishops ARE Apostles. Each Bishop can trace his Apostolic Authority back to an Apostle. No other Church can do that…And that is because The Catholic Church is THE true Church.
 
Point 3. The was an Apostasy and the Catholic Church is a poroduct of that Apostasy.

Catholic Church is a product of the apostasy of the Church Christ established.

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” II Tess 2:3

This does not speak of a total apostasy. In fact, this could be a prophesy about Joseph Smith and that Joseph brings the falling away and he is revealed as that man of sin. This is speaking of a more personal falling away for someone who is deceived. Nowhere does this say a total apostasy. Especially taken in context with the rest of the chapter

The Lord allowed the Saints (members of the Church of Christ) be defeated!

"As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them Dan 7:21

Wow…not sure where, in reading the whole chapter, you get that the Church Jesus established was defeated, even after Christ had said the gates of hell would never prevail against it. This says nothing of the sort. God’s “saints” have been defeated on numerous occasions thru the old and new testament. This was nothing about His Church.

The Church falls into an apostasy for a period of time:

“The woman (Church) fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.” Rev 12:6

This does not talk about an Apostasy, but rather speaks of God caring for His persecuted Church. The desert was always a place of refuge. This is not about Apostasy, but just the opposite, God caring for His Church

Christ and the Apostles talk about a restoration of everything before the second coming of Christ:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. " Acts 3:19-21

Are you serious? Thjis does not speak of a restitution of His Church…this says of ALL things…this is a restitution of the world to the way it was before sin. This is not an apostasy.

“Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.” (Matthew 17:3-13)

Ditto for here. This is not talkiing about restoring His Church. Read the verse in context.

Again, what Mormons do is pluck specific verses out of chapters and out of context and try to make them fit into doctrine.

Catholics try to mod themselves to God Word, Mormons try to mold God;s Word to themselves. It is a dangerous road to walk.

I exhort you to read these verses in context. See what they really say. Understand that Christ is all-powerful and woiuld never let His Church be defeated, especially after promising it would not end.
 
I couldn’t agree with you more S.T.M. When I was serving my Mission we would use these scriptures over and over trying to prove the LDS Church was Christ’s restored Church. The problem was with intense scripture study I came to realization that what I was teaching was false, it wasn’t true.

I like your points here. I would like to hear a rebuttal form an LDS poster.
 
I couldn’t agree with you more S.T.M. When I was serving my Mission we would use these scriptures over and over trying to prove the LDS Church was Christ’s restored Church. The problem was with intense scripture study I came to realization that what I was teaching was false, it wasn’t true.

I like your points here. I would like to hear a rebuttal form an LDS poster.
You are also a Catholic who served an LDS Mission? Wow…welcome to the club! When and where did you serve?
 
Yes Sir. I served from 97 - 99 in the South Africa Johannesburg Mission.
You?
 
Well Sir it is a pleasure to meet you. It’s always nice to know others who’ve traveled the same road to discover the truth.
I was surprised to find quite a few former “Elders” on here who’ve also made the journey.
 
Well Sir it is a pleasure to meet you. It’s always nice to know others who’ve traveled the same road to discover the truth.
I was surprised to find quite a few former “Elders” on here who’ve also made the journey.
You are the only one I know who is now Catholic…
 
Jay53 was a Mish and converted…I know there were a few others as well…

So when did yo become converted?
 
Had a very Spiritual experience in 2003. Became Catholic. Bit, I left the LDS Church in 1989. However, I often feel a pull to go back when I think of my mission…it was a wonderful 2 years
 
I loved my mission. I love the People of South Africa especially the Zulu and Xhosa and Sotho people I had the privilege to serve. Sometimes I too feel that pull to return however certain sticking points always come up.

Polygamy is one, The Lack of Physical evidence to support the BOM, The changing of Doctrine ie Blacks and the Priesthood.
I will say I found my testimony of Jesus Christ in the Mormon church and for that I’m grateful. I feel at home within the Holy Catholic Church.
 
I loved my mission. I love the People of South Africa especially the Zulu and Xhosa and Sotho people I had the privilege to serve. Sometimes I too feel that pull to return however certain sticking points always come up.

Polygamy is one, The Lack of Physical evidence to support the BOM, The changing of Doctrine ie Blacks and the Priesthood.
I will say I found my testimony of Jesus Christ in the Mormon church and for that I’m grateful. I feel at home within the Holy Catholic Church.
yep
 
Catholics try to mod themselves to God Word, Mormons try to mold God;s Word to themselves. It is a dangerous road to walk.

I exhort you to read these verses in context. See what they really say. Understand that Christ is all-powerful and woiuld never let His Church be defeated, especially after promising it would not end.
On this forum all faiths seem to attempt to mold god’s word to themselves. And yes, it is a dangerous road to walk because it sows conflict. And on this forum, scripture is interpreted to fit the faith that one professes. That is just the way it is.
 
on another thread, Evan posted a list of things from another site that he believes proves the Catholic Church lost its way. It was not on topic, so I moved it here to discuss…

The scriptures are clear about a restoration of everything…How can there be a restoration if there is no apostasy? Restoration is a consequence of a total apostasy!
evanfaust - I am assuming that this quote is from one of your posts?

Why did ParkerD say on the thread Joseph Smith’s changing doctrine of deity Post # 283:

(My question): According to you the Catholic Church fell into apostasy. Also according to you, Jesus was the rock. How can you say that Jesus, as the rock, was not strong enough to last???

(ParkerD answers**):“I wouldn’t actually say the Catholic Church fell into apostasy”. **I would say some key leaders attempted to keep the church going, but had **disagreements and eventually lost the Spirit **through disagreements and through attempting to please men rather than to please God.

In your opinion, was there **a total apostasy or was there more of a disagreement **among key leaders?
 
I like your points here. I would like to hear a rebuttal form an LDS poster.
Most protestants and other faiths can give you a rebuttal. But what would be the point? Martin Luther saw problems with his faith and began the reformation. Many followed him. And then, other faiths are restorationist like the lds faith and people follow those faiths.

The catholic problem is not with the lds. But with the penecostal faiths that have swept through traditional catholic countries. People are led away from the catholic faith for specific reasons. And mormons are led away from their faith for specific reasons. It is just the way it is.

To give a rebuttal to Tom would be time consuming and it would end up in conflict. The apostacy discussion has taken place on this forum a number of times.
 
Most protestants and other faiths can give you a rebuttal. But what would be the point? Martin Luther saw problems with his faith and began the reformation. Many followed him. And then, other faiths are restorationist like the lds faith and people follow those faiths.

The catholic problem is not with the lds. But with the penecostal faiths that have swept through traditional catholic countries. People are led away from the catholic faith for specific reasons. And mormons are led away from their faith for specific reasons. It is just the way it is.

To give a rebuttal to Tom would be time consuming and it would end up in conflict. The apostacy discussion has taken place on this forum a number of times.
I would agree with Luther that there were problems. Anytime you have imperfect running things, there will be problems. This was evident all thru the Scriptures. Luther’s problem was he decided he was better than God and started his own Church. The thing to do is work toward fixing problems, not run from problems and start your own church.

There have been problems in the LDS Church, and hence a lot of splinter groups. Does that automatically mean the LDS Church is now wrong?

If you use the splits from the Catholic Church as a sign of losing the authority, then, by that same definition, so has the LDS Church based on the LDS splinter groups.
 
Point 1:

The Jews also have a similar claim. This is what Jesus said about it:

“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

Jewish people can also trace their Priestly Aaronic lineage! They can also trace their genealogy back to Abraham! They were proud of it! Look what Christ said about it:

“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

Yes, the Jews, in the OT, had that claim. That was changed when Jesus came. However, if your point is true, then the LDS Church is false as well.
What I meant is that claiming to trace your line of the priesthood back to the source is not necessarily proof that you posses the keys and the authority.

LDS can trace their line of the Priesthood and authority back to Peter James and John and Jesus Christ too. This authority was given in this dispensation as you know well know our claim.

You basically showed the same pride as the Jews in the time of Christ because you can trace your line of ordination back to Christ. Well…as you know the Jews lost that authority. For this reason Christ said what he said to the Jews…“the kingdom will be taken from you.”

With the same line of thinking, Catholics may find themselves in the same situation…losing authority and recognition from God, even though they can trace the line of ordination all the way back.

Again…this argument of line of authority is not proof because the People of God can deviate from that authority by contamination with the world and rejection of the true principles of the Gospel. If it happened to the Jews, which were the Chosen People of God, why would the Church of Christ be exempt from that requirement?

Your point was that just because Christ organized His Church, it can never apostatize, history proves this argument wrong!

That is my point
!
 
Point 1:

The Jews also have a similar claim. This is what Jesus said about it:

“Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

Jewish people can also trace their Priestly Aaronic lineage! They can also trace their genealogy back to Abraham! They were proud of it! Look what Christ said about it:

“And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.”

Yes, the Jews, in the OT, had that claim. That was changed when Jesus came. However, if your point is true, then the LDS Church is false as well.
What I meant is that claiming to trace your line of the priesthood back to the source is not necessarily proof that you posses the keys and the authority.

LDS can also trace their line of the Priesthood and authority back to Peter James and John and Jesus Christ too. This authority was given in this dispensation as you well know our claim.

You basically demonstrated the same pride as the Jews in the time of Christ when you said you can trace your line of ordination back to Christ. Well…as you know the Jews lost that authority. For this reason Christ said what he said to the Jews…“the keys of kingdom will be taken from you.”

With the same line of thinking, Catholics may find themselves in the same situation…which is losing authority and recognition from God, even though they can trace the line of ordination all the way back.

Again…this argument of line of authority is not proof because the People of God (Israelites)could deviate from that authority by contamination with the world and rejection of the true principles of the Gospel. If it happened to the Jews, which were the Chosen People of God, why would the Church of Christ be exempt from that requirement?

Your point was that just because Christ organized His Church, it can never apostatize. History proves this argument wrong!

That is my point!
 
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