Mormon Claims

[CatholicGuyNY]

Let me make this simple: The lds church is a restorationist church. It is not a reformed church as the protestants are. To be a restorationist church means that the church of christ needed to be restored. Now it seems to me, that when one looks into the history of christianity, we can see some abominations. Right?

We can look into the history of mormonism and we can see some abominations. LOL!

 

[catholic-rcia]

I have no problem with your tours, but you need to admit that your tour is basically a missionary effort directed at the mormons.

utahmission.com/pages/Here_I_am.html

Yes but it is much deeper than that.

What we do is tell them about the functions of areas in our Church such as the Confessional. I have been doing this for 4 years and I have never had a script of any kind that was developed to Convert Mormons or anyone else who comes in. I honestly allow the Holy Spirit to work through me and I try through prayer to just step aside. If I try to take control of the tour in a way that is trying to convert the LDS that would be pre-conceived and that would be wrong, sinful. I am not the one in control of that.

The man who asked the question about Catholics focusing more on the death of Christ rather than His resurrection asked this in all sincerity, you just know it. I can’t remember my answer to that but I do remember the sting in my heart, and the man right in front of me with no clue as to how Catholics focus on our risen Lord. How it all goes together, both the Crucifixion and the resurrection.

Each Mass said includes the whole spectrum of Christ’s life, His death and His glorious resurrection. So I never know what to expect at each tour, we do place it in Gods hands. Its just wonderful to see what He has in store for all of us weather giving it or taking it. So many stories. Many letters from the LDS youth groups, how they were surprised at what they learned along with the beuty of our worship space.

So, We don’t chase anyone into some kind of action, we all let them just walk away. Just a little more informed by direct contact with a couple Catholics… I did start this tour for precisely the reason you have cited. But I really have stepped away from that intention. I don’t want to own anything like that, I have no ownership in that. I am a fairly new Catholic still learning the immensity of humility that is at the core. I now fully understand the difference between proselytizing; getting others to join our church and pure evangelization. One comes out of pride, the root of all evil, the other nothing more than a love for others, and this love is not demanding on others in search of it. When you realize that each and every one of us is loved equally by God a certain kind of respect enters in when dealing with others in so many ways.

 

[Kdesiel]

utahmission.com/pages/Here_I_am.html

Yes but it is much deeper than that.

What we do is tell them about the functions of areas in our Church such as the Confessional. I have been doing this for 4 years and I have never had a script of any kind that was developed to Convert Mormons or anyone else who comes in. I honestly allow the Holy Spirit to work through me and I try through prayer to just step aside. If I try to take control of the tour in a way that is trying to convert the LDS that would be pre-conceived and that would be wrong, sinful. I am not the one in control of that.

The man who asked the question about Catholics focusing more on the death of Christ rather than His resurrection asked this in all sincerity, you just know it. I can’t remember my answer to that but I do remember the sting in my heart, and the man right in front of me with no clue as to how Catholics focus on our risen Lord. How it all goes together, both the Crucifixion and the resurrection.

Each Mass said includes the whole spectrum of Christ’s life, His death and His glorious resurrection. So I never know what to expect at each tour, we do place it in Gods hands. Its just wonderful to see what He has in store for all of us weather giving it or taking it. So many stories. Many letters from the LDS youth groups, how they were surprised at what they learned along with the beuty of our worship space.

So, We don’t chase anyone into some kind of action, we all let them just walk away. Just a little more informed by direct contact with a couple Catholics… I did start this tour for precisely the reason you have cited. But I really have stepped away from that intention. I don’t want to own anything like that, I have no ownership in that. I am a fairly new Catholic still learning the immensity of humility that is at the core. I now fully understand the difference between proselytizing; getting others to join our church and pure evangelization. One comes out of pride, the root of all evil, the other nothing more than a love for others, and this love is not demanding on others in search of it. When you realize that each and every one of us is loved equally by God a certain kind of respect enters in when dealing with others in so many ways.

Very nicely put.

 

[Mike2010]

Let me make this simple: The lds church is a restorationist church. It is not a reformed church as the protestants are. To be a restorationist church means that the church of christ needed to be restored. Now it seems to me, that when one looks into the history of christianity, we can see some abominations. Right

This is my first post so please forgive me if the above quote doesn’t present itself correctly.

One thing that mormons seem to do is claim their was a total apostasy of the early Church with generalizations. They never have any specific examples or facts which say so. There is not any historical evidence of any total apostacy of the early Church.

I would like to know what historical facts prove that the total apostacy occured?

 

[evanfaust]

LDS scriptures say otherwise.

"the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

?

Rebecca,

You forgot that the expressions above are in your Bible! Maybe you should familiarize with your own Bible before you start criticizing left and right. These are expressions from men of God from the past. The Lord is saying them all over again. It seems that nature of men is the same no matter which time live on this earth.

“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:” Isaiah 20:13

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. " Mat 15:8-9

“Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” 2 Tim 3:5

“Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight…” Prov 12:22

“For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” Isaiah 29:10

 

[evanfaust]

This is my first post so please forgive me if the above quote doesn’t present itself correctly.

One thing that mormons seem to do is claim their was a total apostasy of the early Church with generalizations. They never have any specific examples or facts which say so. There is not any historical evidence of any total apostacy of the early Church.

I would like to know what historical facts prove that the total apostacy occured?

Mike,

I present some historical facts. Please read!

fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancient_Church/chap02.html

 

[PaulDupre]

I have been a member of the Mormons Church for more than 30 years and I have been a teacher in Sunday School many, many times and I never taught anything against Catholics or any other religion. I have never seen any teacher in Priesthood, Sunday School, Seminary or Institute or even from the pulpit to say negative things about other religion. (Snip…)

As an active LDS I heard many, many anti-Catholic diatribes from the pulpit and in classes at BYU. They would say that Catholics worship statues and pay to have their sins forgiven. They loved to tell the story of “Pope Joan” (a fiction, BTW). The faithful would snicker and laugh; it was all great fun.

It was hearing “priesthood leaders” tell anti-Catholic lies over and over, which I knew were untrue, that started me investigating the claims of Mormonism from an objective POV. Once you start doing that, it all falls apart very quickly.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca,

You forgot that the expressions above are in your Bible! Maybe you should familiarize with your own Bible before you start criticizing left and right. These are expressions from men of God from the past. The Lord is saying them all over again. It seems that nature of men is the same no matter which time live on this earth.

“Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:” Isaiah 20:13

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. " Mat 15:8-9

“Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.” 2 Tim 3:5

“Lying lips are an abomination to the LORD, But those who deal faithfully are His delight…” Prov 12:22

“For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.” Isaiah 29:10

And? What does this have to do with what I was responding to? You know, we love everyone but we’re so misunderstood. :crying:

Everyone understands just fine.

 

[evanfaust]

As an active LDS I heard many, many anti-Catholic diatribes from the pulpit and in classes at BYU. They would say that Catholics worship statues and pay to have their sins forgiven. They loved to tell the story of “Pope Joan” (a fiction, BTW). The faithful would snicker and laugh; it was all great fun.

It was hearing “priesthood leaders” tell anti-Catholic lies over and over, which I knew were untrue, that started me investigating the claims of Mormonism from an objective POV. Once you start doing that, it all falls apart very quickly.

I lived in two countries in dozens of different places, I never heard criticism to other religions during the LDS church classes. In reality other religions hardly ever come up during classes or in conversations in the church. Maybe in the academic environment like BYU they feel more inclined to discuss other religions, but as long as it is done respectufully I don’t see anything wrong. By the way as I said before I was raised Catholic in the largest Catholic country in the world (Brazil) and I know the Catholic envirnoment.

I admire people from any religion that are able to discuss theology without offending and denigrating others. I consider these people mature and spiritually developed. However, those are hard to find.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I have no problem with your tours, but you need to admit that your tour is basically a missionary effort directed at the mormons.

Who are you to tell people what they are required to do?

I think the lds missionaries who participate in the kind of activity described below need to admit they are buying converts with their “english lessons”.

Unlike in those countries, proselytizers here have a special tool to lure converts — offering classes to a citizenry that views English proficiency as a prerequisite to success.

On many days, these pious peddlers stand on crowded Seoul street-corners hawking a sure-fire come on. In a city where language schools are expensive and private lesson rates run as high as $65 an hour, their classes are free.

But there’s a catch. Most lessons require students to remain for a second session discussing the Book of Mormon.

“A lot of people think we’re English teachers,” said Gunnel, a slim blond college freshman who, like all Mormon missionaries, is required to wear a conservative dark suit, white shirt and nametag.

Added missionary Brian Booth: “Probably most people drop out [of the bible lessons] because they’re in it for the English.”

The missionaries say they don’t consider the ploy to be any false advertising. They’ll do whatever it takes to promote their religious cause.

But not all Koreans see it that way.

You can read the full article here. these manipulative and aggressive tactics are a far cry from Catholic-rcia’s let me show you around one.

 

[PaulDupre]

I lived in two countries in dozens of different places, I never heard criticism to other religions during the LDS church classes. In reality other religions hardly ever come up during classes or in conversations in the church. Maybe in the academic environment like BYU they feel more inclined to discuss other religions, but as long as it is done respectufully I don’t see anything wrong. By the way as I said before I was raised Catholic in the largest Catholic country in the world (Brazil) and I know the Catholic envirnoment.

I admire people from any religion that are able to discuss theology without offending and denigrating others. I consider these people mature and spiritually developed. However, those are hard to find.

Ah, yes. The famous “I never heard that” defense.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I heard it.

Once, in a class that was meant for training teachers, we spent the whole time on how it is that Christianity believes in this ridiculous God that is everywhere and no where all at once.

Everyone knew that the “great and abominable church” was the Roman Catholic church. I can’t believe these Mormons are so unschooled.

ParkerD eludes to it now and then, with his passive agressive attacks against Catholics and Catholic culture.

 

[ParkerD]

This is my first post so please forgive me if the above quote doesn’t present itself correctly.

One thing that mormons seem to do is claim their was a total apostasy of the early Church with generalizations. They never have any specific examples or facts which say so. There is not any historical evidence of any total apostacy of the early Church.

I would like to know what historical facts prove that the total apostacy occured?

Mike2010,

I think you did fine using the quote function.

The words “total apostasy” would mean “loss of pure doctrine and loss of divinely sanctioned authority.”

Two historical examples are (1) when some members asserted that someone besides the Apostle John held keys or authority that were more important in directing the church than the authority John held, from about 60 or 70 AD through about 100 AD; and (2) when some leaders asserted that the key of David was held by Peter and could thus be passed on to bishops, when this was entirely untrue and non-Biblical. The key of David was held by Christ, or in other words placed on His shoulder only, always.

Any doctrinal impurity would mean that the doctrine was no longer pure, so even though “apostasy” is a strong word for that condition (and there are even stronger words used in the Bible), that is what is being described.

There have been many threads talking about these kinds of issues. If you would like to know of one or more, you could let one of us know. No need to rehash the same subjects and conversations over and over.

Peace and good will to you.

 

[vickimonica]

I love DC 114. Joseph says a person will go on a mission in the coming months. Problem is, the guy can;t, he dies. Now, if the prophesy came from God, one must then assume that God had no idea hte guy was gonna die when Joseh gave the revelaiton. Wow. Like I said…the Mormon God is NOT the God of the Bible

I’ve always wondered why on Earth GOD would chose someone w/ morals as low as Joe’s to be the “Original Mormon Prophet”. He had over 30 wives, he slept w/ other mens wives ( I think that would be Adultary). He initially did this behind his 1st wife – Emma’s back. When he was caught red-handed by Emma – he then “claimed” that he had received a “revelation” from God that he should engage in polygomy. He just “forgot” to tell her about that “revelation”. He only “fessed up” after he was caught. Nice. He told a 14 year old girl that he had received a “revelation” that she should be his wife. When she refused, he told her that she would forever be Damned in Hell for her choice. Again – Nice. “Under the Banner of Heaven” – A story of violent faith – by Jon Krakauer is a very interesting read Re: Mormon History…

 

[SirThomasMore]

Mike2010,

I think you did fine using the quote function.

The words “total apostasy” would mean “loss of pure doctrine and loss of divinely sanctioned authority.”

Two historical examples are (1) when some members asserted that someone besides the Apostle John held keys or authority that were more important in directing the church than the authority John held, from about 60 or 70 AD through about 100 AD; and (2) when some leaders asserted that the key of David was held by Peter and could thus be passed on to bishops, when this was entirely untrue and non-Biblical. The key of David was held by Christ, or in other words placed on His shoulder only, always.

Any doctrinal impurity would mean that the doctrine was no longer pure, so even though “apostasy” is a strong word for that condition (and there are even stronger words used in the Bible), that is what is being described.

There have been many threads talking about these kinds of issues. If you would like to know of one or more, you could let one of us know. No need to rehash the same subjects and conversations over and over.

Peace and good will to you.

Though there have always been small “apostasy” here and there, there has been, and never will be, a total Apostasy. Jesus made promises that preclude such an Apostasy. It would be an awfully weak God who could not keep His Church together.

 

[ParkerD]

Mike 2010,
One of the things you may notice or wonder about as you participate in this forum, is that there is a feature that allows a person to not read the post of another participant. This seems to be helpful sometimes to “keep the peace”. So if you notice that no reply is given to someone who posts a question or a response, it may be that in such a case the “ignore” feature has been selected by a participant to “keep the peace”. I have chosen to use that in three cases (but one went away, so now two).

 

[SirThomasMore]

Mike 2010,
One of the things you may notice or wonder about as you participate in this forum, is that there is a feature that allows a person to not read the post of another participant. This seems to be helpful sometimes to “keep the peace”. So if you notice that no reply is given to someone who posts a question or a response, it may be that in such a case the “ignore” feature has been selected by a participant to “keep the peace”. I have chosen to use that in three cases (but one went away, so now two).

Mike, that feature is almost used when a Mormon cannot handle the Catholic Poster. They cannot fool them, or distract them, or they get tired of hearing the truth they try to ignore. Usually, LDS posters use this feature against former Mormons. Former Mormons know too much

 

[MelanieAnne]

I find the consternation from Mormons about tours of Catholic churches to be disingenuous.

The local Mormon stake building, which is easy walking distance from my house,
periodically conducts such tours. And these tours are clearly part of their missionary activities.

Why is it somehow suspicious for Catholics to invite the public in for such tours but OK for Mormons?

 

[Stephen168]

This is my first post so please forgive me if the above quote doesn’t present itself correctly.

One thing that mormons seem to do is claim their was a total apostasy of the early Church with generalizations. They never have any specific examples or facts which say so. There is not any historical evidence of any total apostacy of the early Church.

I would like to know what historical facts prove that the total apostacy occured?

I think you will find Mormons will never give ‘historical’ facts. What you will get are Mormon beliefs which contradict the Catholic Church. Because the beliefs are different, Mormons believe there was an apostasy. Now they cannot prove unique Mormon beliefs were held by the early Church, but they don’t let ‘historical’ facts get in the way of their beliefs. They believe what they believe even when it is contrary to science, history, or reason.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I think you will find Mormons will never give ‘historical’ facts. What you will get are Mormon beliefs which contradict the Catholic Church. Because the beliefs are different, Mormons believe there was an apostasy. Now they cannot prove unique Mormon beliefs were held by the early Church, but they don’t let ‘historical’ facts get in the way of their beliefs. They believe what they believe even when it is contrary to science, history, or reason.

And that’s a little scary, isn’t it?