Mormon doctrine in a nutshell!

[RebeccaJ]

I’m sorry, I’ve been reading this entire post, and when I got to this, I had to say something. If you know anything about agriculture in general, you will know that there was NO SUCH THING as grape juice in the time before Mr Welch and Smuckers in the Near East. After 1 hour in the heat of Judea, that pressed grape juice (since there is no refrigeration or preservatives) would have started fermenting and turning into wine. Wine was the most common drink in that time, beer was rarely being made and water was the only other thing available. So unless John is squeezing grapes under the table at the last supper next to Jesus, it was wine.

I explained this once to a couple of Mormons who kept insisting that Jesus did not drink wine, EVER. It was a painful conversation, where I even went into the wine making process, but in the end, they just said, JESUS DID NOT DRINK WINE, because it is a sin and Jesus did not sin.

:banghead:

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I explained this once to a couple of Mormons who kept insisting that Jesus did not drink wine, EVER. It was a painful conversation, where I even went into the wine making process, but in the end, they just said, JESUS DID NOT DRINK WINE, because it is a sin and Jesus did not sin.

:banghead:

Thats because as we can all see that Mormon add to, take away from, or change things to fit their way of seeing.

 

[why_me]

I explained this once to a couple of Mormons who kept insisting that Jesus did not drink wine, EVER. It was a painful conversation, where I even went into the wine making process, but in the end, they just said, JESUS DID NOT DRINK WINE, because it is a sin and Jesus did not sin.

:banghead:

I think that the debate is open on this one. You will find mormons disagreeing about this issue. What is known is that water was not a source of purity in that part of the world and it was scarce. Thus, wine became a substitute since it was looked upon as pure being safe to drink.

Did Jesus drink alcohol? Who can say. True, the bible says that wine was drunk but it could have been something else than alcohol. And regardless if it were alcohol or not is not the point. The correctness of the word of wisdom, of obstaining from alcohol, is a good and correct principal and many catholics would be alive today and many families saved from emotional and physical hardship if it were applied in the catholic faith.

Also, it is hard to imagine Jesus drunk and giddy.

 

[why_me]

By all Scripture ( not including those written by LDS members) there is only “worldly” marriage.

But this is not founded in the Scripture or any Hewbrew or early Church writings.

And Christ did not see fit to change it. As a matter of fact he restated it. that in heaven / at the resurrection non are married. This is an example of LDS changing thing in direct conflict with what Jesus has said.

Okay here it is in a nutshell: a couple have been wonderfully married for 40 years. One dies. I can assure you that the bereaved spouse believes that in eternity she or he will be with her spouse and rightly so. God would not be so cruel as to separate such people upon death and just make them angels. How to live in eternity without that significant other??

Marriage after death is the more humane aspect of the mormon faith. Of course, it all depends on worthiness but still…it is quite humane and loving.

 

[why_me]

No. I actually believe that families will be together in the eternities. I see no other option. It is the most loving act that a loving god can give: to make family eternal.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

=why me;4240662]Okay here it is in a nutshell: a couple have been wonderfully married for 40 years. One dies. I can assure you that the bereaved spouse believes that in eternity she or he will be with her spouse and rightly so. God would not be so cruel as to separate such people upon death and just make them angels. How to live in eternity without that significant other??

Ok here it is in a nutshell. You are looking at things as a man and not as God. Do we see and know one another in heaven ? I believe so. Are we married? No. Why, because Jesus said that we were not. Our focus then as should be now is on God. the need of earthy wants and needs will have passed.

Marriage after death is the more humane aspect of the mormon faith. Of course, it all depends on worthiness but still…it is quite humane and loving.

It maybe humane but it is not of God. It is a very Pagan way of looking at things. And who decides if your worthy. that sounds as if God will be saying to some if not most, Ok you are good enough to get into heaven but not good enough to keep your wife. thats the act of a loving God?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

I think that the debate is open on this one. You will find mormons disagreeing about this issue. What is known is that water was not a source of purity in that part of the world and it was scarce. Thus, wine became a substitute since it was looked upon as pure being safe to drink.

Did Jesus drink alcohol? Who can say. True, the bible says that wine was drunk but it could have been something else than alcohol. And regardless if it were alcohol or not is not the point. The correctness of the word of wisdom, of obstaining from alcohol, is a good and correct principal and many catholics would be alive today and many families saved from emotional and physical hardship if it were applied in the catholic faith.

Also, it is hard to imagine Jesus drunk and giddy.

Of course the wine was as it is now Alcohol. why else would Paul have warned against being a drunkard.

 

[why_me]

Of course the wine was as it is now Alcohol. why else would Paul have warned against being a drunkard.

Try this hat on for size! :tiphat:

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,945726,00.html

Did Jesus Drink Wine?
Monday, Jan. 24, 1977Print

Jimmy Carter has announced that he will serve nothing stronger than wine when he moves into the White House this week, and he drinks only an occasional Scotch. That temperate approach has proved a disappointment to out-and-out prohibitionists, since Carter is a devout member of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Southern Baptists are among the driest of U.S. church groups.

But one celebrated Southern Baptist, Billy Graham, leaped to the new President’s defense in a Miami Herald interview. As Graham reads his well-worn Bible, there is no doubt that “Jesus drank wine.” After all, he miraculously turned six huge jars of water into wine at the wedding at Cana (John 2: 1-11). “That wasn’t grape juice, as some of them try to claim,” added Graham.

Not so, replied Fundamentalist Presbyterian Carl Mclntire. In his Christian Beacon, he offered an ingenious exegesis of the Cana account: “Jesus Christ never drank any fermented wine, neither did he ever make fermented wine. What Jesus did at the marriage of Cana was to make out of water the finest nonintoxicating wine that perhaps was ever made. The various combinations of the fruits of the vine can produce some delicious non-fermented drinks.”

Facing a flurry of complaints, Graham then issued a 2,000-word statement further explaining his position on alcohol. The wine of biblical times was “very much weaker than modern drink,” he said. “We have a free conscience before the Lord, [but] it is better for Christians to be teetotalers, except for medicinal purposes.”

Also, the wine of the bible was far more weaker than the wine of today. And this makes all the difference. As I have stated, wine was looked upon as a water substitute because of its purity. I am sure that a jewish person at the time of christ would need to drink a much stronger drink to get drunk than the weak wine of that time.

Thus, the mormon concept of juice could be a correct one.

 

[why_me]

You can also try read this:

new-life.net/faq019.htm

Was the wine that Jesus drank the same as wine today?
Q: I have what you may see as an easy question. What was the difference in the wine JESUS and the disciples drank in comparison to what we have today? Was there any difference at all? I am having a tough time witnessing to people about drinking and how GOD doesn’t like it when JESUS is turning water to wine at “gatherings” and drinking with his disciples.
“Gimme” some help on this Pastor.

A: There isn’t really much difference between the wine made in Jesus’ day and the wine made today. The process of fermentation FOR WINE is similar. However, after the time of the New Testament the invention of distillation rather than fermentation greatly increased the alcoholic content and made liquor possible. This type of strong drink was not available in Bible times. I’ve attached a PDF file on “wine” from the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia which has some very good information.

Concerning Jesus turning water to wine at the marriage feast, I believe that God DID approve of Jesus’ action. There are a number of references to Jesus drinking wine (examples: Luke 7:34; John 19:29). We know from the writings of the Jewish rabbis and the writings of the early church that the wine used in Passover/communion was one part alcoholic wine to 4 parts water. My understanding of the Bible is that the drinking of wine is acceptable. It is the abuse of alcoholic beverages that is sin. What the Bible speaks against is drunkenness, not drinking.

 

[jerome2kph]

Joseph Smith was a Freemason.

 

[why_me]

Joseph Smith was a Freemason.

So were many american founding fathers! It was very much a part of american culture at that time. I would say that more american founding fathers were masons than not.

 

[ralphinal]

How would anyone today know the proof of wine 2000 years ago? All this is revisionistic biblical hisotry to support a flawed theory and doctrine. All the foot stomping (no pun intended) about the wine, or in the LDS case, the mega cities and Jewish DNA, neither of which are here, is just trying to force history to fit the make-beleive.

 

[cfrancis]

Yes, you did. The mormon stance is quite simple: Truth is yet to be discovered. But by placing a creed or doctrine in a book and saying ‘this is it’, the faith actually limits the truth to that book.

I’m a late-comer to the thread, and didn’t get past this post.
Isn’t the placing in a book a statement of “truth is yet to be revealed” actually stating “this is it,” this is “truth” that “truth is yet to be revealed”?
This seems much like saying “there are no absolutes”…

 

[AMDGtoo]

Also, it is hard to imagine Jesus drunk and giddy.

A person doesn’t have to go to the extremes and get drunk. BTW, wine was also recommended for digestive purposes in the Bible.

 

[AMDGtoo]

people upon death and just make them angels.

It seems LDS and Christians have a different idea of what angels are. Christians do not believe that man can “become” angels. Angels are a creation of God from the beginning–not men who have died.

 

[Jerusha]

A person doesn’t have to go to the extremes and get drunk. BTW, wine was also recommended for digestive purposes in the Bible.

Not only that, but the alcohol served as an antiseptic. In heavily populated areas, especially when boiling water was inconvenient, it served its purpose.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Try this hat on for size! :tiphat:

%between%
Also, the wine of the bible was far more weaker than the wine of today. And this makes all the difference. As I have stated, wine was looked upon as a water substitute because of its purity. I am sure that a jewish person at the time of christ would need to drink a much stronger drink to get drunk than the weak wine of that time.

Thus, the mormon concept of juice could be a correct one.

lol why me, this is Mormon folklore based on ZERO knowledge of wine making. Wine is wine, and Romans had it down to a fine art. They knew how to jack up the alcohol level.

You can control the alcohol level to some extent but it cannot be removed, or even controlled to a level of “juice”. But the general practice was to water the wine down. And I agree, that for every day use of wine that people did water it down. It was still wine, still contained alcohol, and would still give you a warm buzz. Which is not being drunk! You are like all Mormons, who think that drinking a glass of wine makes you a drunkard.

And Jesus turned water into wine, NOT grape juice. That was probably some mighty fine wine, don’t you think? Which, this was at a wedding party. If someone produced non-alcoholic wine at a Jewish wedding that wouldn’t have been seen as any kind of miracle, more like a fizzle almost-made-it miracle.

 

[aquabatix]

You can also try read this:

new-life.net/faq019.htm

Was the wine that Jesus drank the same as wine today?
Q: I have what you may see as an easy question. What was the difference in the wine JESUS and the disciples drank in comparison to what we have today? Was there any difference at all? I am having a tough time witnessing to people about drinking and how GOD doesn’t like it when JESUS is turning water to wine at “gatherings” and drinking with his disciples.
“Gimme” some help on this Pastor.

A: There isn’t really much difference between the wine made in Jesus’ day and the wine made today. The process of fermentation FOR WINE is similar. However, after the time of the New Testament the invention of distillation rather than fermentation greatly increased the alcoholic content and made liquor possible. This type of strong drink was not available in Bible times. I’ve attached a PDF file on “wine” from the Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia which has some very good information.

Concerning Jesus turning water to wine at the marriage feast, I believe that God DID approve of Jesus’ action. There are a number of references to Jesus drinking wine (examples: Luke 7:34; John 19:29). We know from the writings of the Jewish rabbis and the writings of the early church that the wine used in Passover/communion was one part alcoholic wine to 4 parts water. My understanding of the Bible is that the drinking of wine is acceptable. It is the abuse of alcoholic beverages that is sin. What the Bible speaks against is drunkenness, not drinking.

Thank you for proving my point so well. Wine is wine, and although it may have had a weaker alcohol percentage in Jesus’ day, it still did.
The fact that most, not just Jesus’ at the Last Supper with amazing foresight, did dilute the wine that was commonly used. This was to avoid getting drunk un-necessarily. BUT, there was alcohol in the drink and as you can see, that if it is done in MODERATION (which is a principle that we should all hold to) it is not a bad thing.
SO, changing the communion, or as I know it should be Blood of Christ, to water as a substitute, is wrong factually and down right disrespectful.
Jesus did not say, “This is my WATER, take it, all of you and drink.”

 

[RebeccaJ]

So were many american founding fathers! It was very much a part of american culture at that time.

As was anti-Catholicism.

 

[why_me]

It seems LDS and Christians have a different idea of what angels are. Christians do not believe that man can “become” angels. Angels are a creation of God from the beginning–not men who have died.

You got it wrong. The catholics on this thread have informed me that there is no marriage in heaven. Rather, when we die we become angels with god.

Now mormons claim that the angel moroni visited Joseph Smith. And Moroni was once a man.