Mormon doctrine in a nutshell!

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That may be true. But for catholics the truth is limited to the catechism. That was the point. But not just catholicism. Many protestant sects are also enclosed in a box.

For mormons, god will still reveal more truths. He has not yet finished in governing his people, the human race.
No you just don’t seem to get it why me.

We don’t limit Truth to the Catechism. We don’t limit Truth to the Bible. We don’t limit Truth to the Magesterium.

We limit TRUTH to the person of Jesus Christ. He said it Himself, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life… No man comes to the Father but by me.”.

The Truth is a person. Jesus. To Him and to Him alone do we look to for our salvation.

in Christ
Steph
 
The video is taken directly from a presentation. So, I think that you can read the presentation that the voice over is about.

Whyme, can you give me a link?

I’m not online regularly for now, as I’m out of town, so be patient…

Ruthie
 
Let’s ask our Mormon friends if they hold to the doctrine of eternal progression? This doctrine states, As man is god once was, as god is man may become? They believe that Jesus Christ was a man who obeyed the Mormon gospel and became a god. They believe that He had a father who was an man, who obeyed the Mormon gospel, became a god, had sexual relation with another woman and begot Jesus. This idea goes on and on. So, my question to my Mormon friends is this. Where did the first God come from? If you go back far enough don’t you come to the first cause or God?
No, in Mormon doctrine it doesn’t come to that conclusion, it just goes on and on for an infinite regression. So it is that Mormonism doesn’t even have a concept of God, The God, really.
 
“lead us not into temptation” is a bad translation. The word “lead” should be something like “allow.” But the Lord’s Prayer is so ingrained in peoples’ memories that it may be hopeless to change it at this point.

When I say it, I just change “lead” to “let.”

Ruthie
 
=ronald g w;4227828]Thanks for your thoughts
you are welcome
1 Surely it a matter of interpretation whether JS failed the test, it all depends from which point you are looking at it from. He gave me an answer that I felt from a young boy that the Catholic Church taught the opposit, I ask myself why did I feel the way I did inspite of growing up Catholic and I had no outside influence.
There is noting to interpret. JS taught the there are multiple gods that the trinity is three separate gods. that God was one a man created on another planet by another God and has become God. this does not pas the test of either Hebrew or Christian true prophet.
  1. Again I think it comes to personal interpretation.
there again is the fallacy of reliance on personal interpretation and not being able to separate sons of god= creation and Son of God= only begotten
3.Yes I agree The Catholic Church for the most part has truth, Yes there are difference that also creat a great devide ( the nature of the Godhead etc) as LDS this should not stop me embracing all truth, for my belief is that all truth comes from God and no other source.
but unless God is speaking directly to you you have to rely on the church
  1. I have another question in relation to your answer, why do you then pray to your Heavenly Father asking Him not to lead you into temptation ?
I have not the word to experess the true answer to this,but in the Our Father we are not praying that god not lead us into temptation as we think of it in the language of today.
 
“lead us not into temptation” is a bad translation. The word “lead” should be something like “allow.” But the Lord’s Prayer is so ingrained in peoples’ memories that it may be hopeless to change it at this point.

When I say it, I just change “lead” to “let.”

Ruthie
If I recite the Lord’s Prayer I in most cases say it the way I was taught, but When I think about it, I like to say "suffer that we be not lead into …
 
you are welcome
There is noting to interpret. JS taught the there are multiple gods that the trinity is three separate gods. that God was one a man created on another planet by another God and has become God. this does not pas the test of either Hebrew or Christian true prophet.
there again is the fallacy of reliance on personal interpretation and not being able to separate sons of god= creation and Son of God= only begotten
.
I am not here to convert you or anyone else, if anything hopefully we will become stronger in our respective beliefs.
I ask myself the question, why is the family unit so important to God if it is to disentigrate when we leave this earth 98% of marriages are performed until death you depart.? Why did God make a covenant with Abraham, Why are we adopted into the family of Israel, Why are we a diffrent species to God when we are created in His image Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Jesus the express image of the Father and brightness of his glory.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them
We are in his image
John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Why would Jesus say this if it were not so ?
Philip 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
We will have a body like our Savior’s glorified body and if we have seen him we have seen the father ? 1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I read things like this and others like, “tell my brethren that I am going to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God” and I see family unit which is eternal with God therefore it will have no end if no end then no beginning. How does one explain the scripture where we are to be ONE with Christ as He is ONE with the Father, I asked this in another place, does it mean that we are to become appart of the Godhead because they are one or does it simply mean that we must be unified as they are. what I see is if we are worthy we will be apart of an eternal family with our eternal Father who is like us, we are to be joint heirs with Christ of all that the Father hath. What does this mean, how can Jesus inherit something from God if he is God, it just does not add up. So YES I see my Heavenly Father as a glorified imortal supreme being who will ever be my Father and God and I do not believe that I deminish or belittle Him in any way in wanting to be Like Him, What honor does a son give his father in wanting to be like him. If we are to have thoughts of the honor be mine different story BUT all the glory and honor belongeth unto the Father of us all.
 
I think that the catholic church and the mormon church brings people to the truth. The catholic newspaper listed below is one example:

vatican.va/news_services/or/or_eng/index.html

However, in the lds church, truth is being revealed also. The word of wisdom is one such truth, a truth if catholics would follow, there would be more healthy and peaceful catholic families in the world. Also, the lds leadership does give guidance about living life in the 21st century. And I can see no fault in the advice so far. But I see no fault in the pope’s advice either.

One must have an open heart to notice a truth that comes from god.
Thanks for the reply, but:

What moral truths do LDS solely possess?
 
I am not here to convert you or anyone else, if anything hopefully we will become stronger in our respective beliefs.
I ask myself the question, why is the family unit so important to God if it is to disentigrate when we leave this earth 98% of marriages are performed until death you depart.? Why did God make a covenant with Abraham, Why are we adopted into the family of Israel, Why are we a diffrent species to God when we are created in His image Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Jesus the express image of the Father and brightness of his glory.
Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them
We are in his image
John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Why would Jesus say this if it were not so ?
Philip 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
We will have a body like our Savior’s glorified body and if we have seen him we have seen the father ? 1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
I read things like this and others like, “tell my brethren that I am going to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God” and I see family unit which is eternal with God therefore it will have no end if no end then no beginning. How does one explain the scripture where we are to be ONE with Christ as He is ONE with the Father, I asked this in another place, does it mean that we are to become appart of the Godhead because they are one or does it simply mean that we must be unified as they are. what I see is if we are worthy we will be apart of an eternal family with our eternal Father who is like us, we are to be joint heirs with Christ of all that the Father hath. What does this mean, how can Jesus inherit something from God if he is God, it just does not add up. So YES I see my Heavenly Father as a glorified imortal supreme being who will ever be my Father and God and I do not believe that I deminish or belittle Him in any way in wanting to be Like Him, What honor does a son give his father in wanting to be like him. If we are to have thoughts of the honor be mine different story BUT all the glory and honor belongeth unto the Father of us all.
To strive and reflect the glory of God and to come into eternity with him is something that all should strive for and in no way takes from God. to to Say that God was once a man liken to us and that we could one day be come like Him as Gods ourself is belittling to God.
 
Here is the problem: I can agree with you about the catholic church. However, one must have caution also. The catholic church, her representatives, have not been perfect in their treatment of others. Lets look at the life of Saint Bernedette. She was a great young girl who became a nun. And yet, if one reads about her treatment by her mother superior and the Mistress of Novices, one can see a lot of misery. The convent life was far from the desires of god, at least in the past. She was very mistreated in her convent life.

Also, I can see the same treatment with John of the Cross. His own friars put him in prison and mistreated him. We can see a lot of abuse in the catholic church in the past. And his friend Teresa of Avila was tiptoeing through the tulips with her books trying to write so that the Inquistors would not arrest her. These actions were far from the desires of god.

Now the mormon church is not perfect either, at least her people are not perfect. But I see no fault in the mormon teaching on how to do life but of course, I do have critical comments to make if I wanted to make them.
whyme, you will never find a perfect person, or a group of perfect persons, ANYWHERE. There is only One Man who was ever perfect and that was Jesus Christ.

All these things you list, are but a testament to the general state of humans and WHY we need to be redeemed in the first place. Mormons are not exempt from this redemption and neither are Catholics. Not nuns. Not priests. Not bishops. Not Popes. No one is. Christ died for all. Because we all sin.

As to the WoW, the Catholic Church has taught that being a drunk is a sin. All have free will, all exercise that free will.

Mormons exclude alcohol to the point of an unhealthy obsession. One glass of wine with dinner does not an alcoholic make, and it has been proven to be beneficial to your health.

Mormons view such moderation as sinful as the person who drinks a fifth of vodka a day. And even deny the Sacrament because it includes a small amount of wine! And twist the meaning of the Bible to come up with this idea that Jesus didn’t drink wine, but grape juice. It’s ludicrous. There is no truth in these things.
 
We hold the Catechism to be true, and we also believe that more truth can be discovered about our doctrines; that our understanding of them can be expanded.

The big difference is that no new understanding will *ever *contradict previous truth. More may be understood about a doctrine - but the doctrine will *not *change.

We all know that two previous doctrines of the Mormon church, on polygyny and blacks in the priesthood, have changed.

The fact that these doctrines changed just in time to first, insure statehood for Utah, and second, to avoid losing non-profit status, do not seem to me to be a coincidence.

Right now, the Catholic Church is under fire from those who would *force *our medical charities to violate our beliefs by making them prescribe contraceptives and perform abortions. I doubt that even loss of non-profit status would force us to change those doctrines.

Big difference.

Ruthie
Hi Ruthie here is some food for thought re changing of doctrine.

I s Bible baptism sprinkling, pouring or immersion, or can we choose whichever baptism we like? And why should we be concerned anyway?

Paul wrote, “There is one body and one Spirit,just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and,through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6)

Paul placed the one baptism in the company of the one Lord, one God and one Spirit. We can be sure, therefore, that the subject of the one baptism is important. Baptism is from God, not from man. There is only one and we have no freedom to change it. We should be concerned with every aspect of the subject, and certainly we should be sure of how it is performed.

“Baptizo,” the Greek Word

The New Testament was written in Greek, and the Greek word which is translated “I baptize” when spelled in English letters is “baptizo.” As you can see, it is almost the same as the English word. The reason for this similarity is that the word has not really been translated. “Baptize” is a Greek word spelled in English letters and the meaning has not been given.

In other languages the word has sometimes been translated. In Afrikaans it is “doop,” which gives us a good clue as to its meaning. When not used in a religious sense “doop” simply means “dip.”

To find the meaning of the Greek word we can consult the Greek lexicons (dictionaries) to discover how the word is used in the New Testament. Then we will know for sure what the word means as used by Jesus and the apostles.

The Meaning in the Greek Lexicons

I have two Greek lexicons in my library. The older one is the standard Thayer’s Greek lexicon. He gives almost a page on the use of the word with many examples. But the part which directly concerns us is the following: II. In the N.T. (New Testament) it is used particularly of the rite of sacred ablution, first instituted by John the Baptist, afterwards by Christ’s command received by Christians and adjusted to the contents and nature of their religion, VIZ. an immersion in water. (Emphasis added.)

The other lexicon is by G. Abbott-Smith, also considered to be a standard. He gives the meaning very simply: “to dip, immerse, sink.” In all of the examples of the uses of this word neither lexicon gives anything which can
include sprinkling or pouring a little water on a person. The meaning of “baptizo” is to immerse!

How the New Testament Uses the Word

The Bible consistently uses the word so that the meaning “immerse” fits the context. The only meaning of the word “baptize” as it is used in the New Testament is “immerse.” Note the following:

I. In Water

“And they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River.” (Mark 1:5) “And it came about in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. And immediately coming up out of the water…” (Mark 1:10) Jesus did not come from the water but up out of the water. He was in the water when He was baptised.

II. Much Water

“And John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and they were coming, and were being baptized.” (John 3:23)

Baptism requires “much” water, more water than can be carried. John chose the place for baptising which had much water. The people came there to be baptised; the water was not taken to the people.

III. Down into the Water

“And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. And as they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, ‘Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?’ And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they came up out of the water…” (Acts 8:35-36,38-39)

These verses vividly paint the picture of baptism. Philip did not use the water which the traveler must have carried in his chariot. In fact, it is clear that a small amount would not have been enough. It was when they “came to some water” that the eunuch saw that he could be baptised. Then both the preacher and the one baptised went into the water, the preacher baptised him, then they came up out of the water. What but immersion will fit the picture of this baptism?

IV. “Buried” and “Raised”

The action of baptism is most clearly shown in the two verses which use the words “buried” and “raised.”

“Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:4)

continued #92​

 
continued from #91

BAPTISM IN ROMANS 6:4

In commenting on Romans 6:4 the Pulpit Commentary, which was written by preachers in the Church of England, says: “The reference rather is to the form of baptism, viz. by immersion, which was understood to signify burial, and therefore death.” (Romans, p 156)

What other conclusion can one come to? There is no way in which a person who has had water sprinkled or poured on his head can be described as “buried” and “raised.”

The other verse is Colossians 2:12 which says, “having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.”

Immersion is demanded by these two verses!

Sprinkling and Pouring in the New Testament

The words “sprinkle” and “pour” are used many times in the New Testament. They refer to sprinkling blood and ashes, to the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, the wrath of God, and the money from the tables of the money changers. Not once is “sprinkle” or pour" used to describe baptism.
Sprinkling cannot describe immersion!

Why Sprinkling?

Substituting sprinkling and pouring for immersion came about over a period of centuries. It was not until A.D. 1311 that the Roman Catholic Church proclaimed officially that baptism could be performed only by pouring. The Protestant churches cannot cite Biblical authority for their practice of sprinkling or pouring—they must admit that they adopted the practice from the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church does not pretend to find the practice in the Bible. They believe the Catholic Church has the right to define and change doctrine regardless of what the Bible says. Therefore sprinkling and pouring for baptism have only human authority, not divine authority.
 
Ez 36:25 “I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities.”
 
To strive and reflect the glory of God and to come into eternity with him is something that all should strive for and in no way takes from God. to to Say that God was once a man liken to us and that we could one day be come like Him as Gods ourself is belittling to God.
WHY do you think / say it is ?
 
I ask myself the question, why is the family unit so important to God if it is to disentigrate when we leave this earth 98% of marriages are performed until death you depart.? Why did God make a covenant with Abraham, Why are we adopted into the family of Israel…
It is a common Mormon misconception (heavily promoted by your leadership) that Christians do not value the family or believe in an eternal family.

We Catholics believe that the Trinity is THE FAMILY, the only real family. When we are adopted into the family of Israel, we are adopted into the family of God. Our earthly families are but a dim reflection of the true family in heaven. As such, marriage and family on earth is the great training ground for our membership and participation in the heavenly eternal family. Here we learn patience, self-sacrifice, right values and real love - the character needed to be in the presence of God and share in His life - the real family life. The absolute intimacy and transcendent love that we will all share in God’s presence as members of His family will make our earthly relationships pale by comparison. Therefore, earthly marriage is for here only and is obsolete in heaven. Of course, we will still have special love and gratitude for all those who helped us to salvation, especially parents and grandparents, siblings, spouse and children.

Mormons tend to think of life with God as being like life here on earth only better (as they think of God as just another man, only better). But God has revealed to us that
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. - 1 Cor:2:9
It is God’s nature to exist as a family of three persons. He is now expanding His family to include us. Life with God, as a member of His family, will be nothing like life here.
 
If I recite the Lord’s Prayer I in most cases say it the way I was taught, but When I think about it, I like to say "suffer that we be not lead into …
This is another case where taking a “Bible-byte” can lead to trouble. Obviously God doesn’t lead anybody into temptation; common sense tells you that much and it’s even explicitly stated in 1 James 13. Your interpretation is probably what most of us mean when we recite the prayer and it’s fine. But it doesn’t really mean that either. The word traditionally and colloquially translated as “temptation” is “peirsasmos” in the original Greek text. It can mean temptation, but it also means trial, ordeal or test and that is what it means in this context. Apocalyptic writings spoke of a time of great tribulation (the messianic woes) before the coming of the new messianic age (the Millennium) and the prayer asks that we be spared from that ordeal. In my Bible (NAB), it is translated as “and do not subject us to the final test" in both Matthew and Luke.
 
Can I ask some questions
  1. Are there any true Prophets or are they all false ? (test the spirit)
  2. Did JS not profess that JESUS CHRIST came in the flesh and that he is the only begotten son of God in the flesh. ?
  3. Does the Catholic Church have truth in its teachings?
  4. Does God lead us into temptation.?
Just looking for simple answers YES / NO
  1. YES 2. Mormon answer: YES. Christian answer: NO 3. YES! 4. Bad translation of the Lord’s prayer. In most other languages, it is translated as “Do not let us fall into temptation”. Satan tempts.
Why do you over-simplify by demanding yes/no? Please admit that Mormons worship a “different god” and “different christ”. We have two, separate religions. They are mutually exclusive, despite the LDS “borrowing” of common Christian terms. You are sounding like a defense attorney. And, perhaps you are…

A YES/NO for you: Does truth matter?
 
WHY do you think / say it is ?
Genesis 3:4-5 (King James Version) “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”

What earth-changing incident came just after this? Not the Autumn. The Fall.

Adam and Eve wanted to be like gods. A warning to those who so aspire.

Yours in the eternal Christ.
 
It is a common Mormon misconception (heavily promoted by your leadership) that Christians do not value the family or believe in an eternal family.

We Catholics believe that the Trinity is THE FAMILY, the only real family. When we are adopted into the family of Israel, we are adopted into the family of God. Our earthly families are but a dim reflection of the true family in heaven. As such, marriage and family on earth is the great training ground for our membership and participation in the heavenly eternal family. Here we learn patience, self-sacrifice, right values and real love - the character needed to be in the presence of God and share in His life - the real family life. The absolute intimacy and transcendent love that we will all share in God’s presence as members of His family will make our earthly relationships pale by comparison. Therefore, earthly marriage is for here only and is obsolete in heaven. Of course, we will still have special love and gratitude for all those who helped us to salvation, especially parents and grandparents, siblings, spouse and children.

Mormons tend to think of life with God as being like life here on earth only better (as they think of God as just another man, only better). But God has revealed to us that

It is God’s nature to exist as a family of three persons. He is now expanding His family to include us. Life with God, as a member of His family, will be nothing like life here.
Amen, Paul. 👍

To know the truth, you must separate Joseph Smith from Christ. They cannot both be telling the truth. Joseph Smith apparently never read these passages:

Matthew 22:30 “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

Mark 12:25 “When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

Luke 20:35 “But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,”

The Word of the Lord. Amen!
 
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