Mormon Doctrine (part 2)

[zaffiroborant]

No. That is not a fact.

Articles of Faith
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

That we allow for the possibility of the existence of other divine beings is irrelevant; it is our faith in the three members of the Godhead that is alone pertinent to our salvation.

Well the articles of faith came out before The Family: A Proclamation to the World which begins “We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim”
and goes on to say " Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents". Isn’t this binding it is after all a proclamation signed off on by all of your leaders.
If Heavenly Mother doesn’t exist who are your “heavenly parents” are Jesus and The Father the heavenly parents, or maybe the Holy Spirit and God the Father, or Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Current revelation of the prophet supersedes (or corrects or adds on to) previous revelation. Just why does The Family: A Proclamation to the World not address the ambiguity of the articles of faith? If it doesn’t address this we could in good conscience change the proclamation to read thus:

“We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, -]solemnly proclaim/-]” think that “that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God” because this is really nothing more than their opinion, right?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I’d also add it is a bit disingenuous to say we don’t “believe in” heavenly mother when a person can not be exalted without being married. God the Father could not have attained his position if he did not have an “eternal companion”. No man will be exalted unless he is married so he can not be made divine unless attached to a woman, and what is she if not divine? If not divine women are nothing more than an object to be collected by men on the path to becoming divine. And what happens to these, women things, apparently they are shunted into obscurity. Pahoran’s denial of them is even more cutting than the standard explanation given “Heavenly Mother” is too sacred to be held up for mocking by the masses. Nope in his world women do not achieve divinity at all.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Keep the facts coming, they always stump Mormons. Good stuff.

 

[ParkerD]

I’d also add it is a bit disingenuous to say we don’t “believe in” heavenly mother when a person can not be exalted without being married. God the Father could not have attained his position if he did not have an “eternal companion”. No man will be exalted unless he is married so he can not be made divine unless attached to a woman, and what is she if not divine? If not divine women are nothing more than an object to be collected by men on the path to becoming divine. And what happens to these, women things, apparently they are shunted into obscurity. Pahoran’s denial of them is even more cutting than the standard explanation given “Heavenly Mother” is too sacred to be held up for mocking by the masses. Nope in his world women do not achieve divinity at all.

Zaffiroborant and others,
The world today is strong on gender identity confusion. Here is a link to an article that presents the LDS position on motherhood and its importance, which my wife has followed through our lives as parents:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=67acfd758096b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

There is no “shunting”, no disregard for the active and important role of motherhood. There is no need to think a “Heavenly Mother” would need to be worshiped in order to exist. She has a different role than that. God has ordained those roles, and Heavenly Father and the Savior are Whom should be worshiped. We will do that for eternity.

Here is another great article about the role of Heavenly Father and the Savior and the role of mothers:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=66179527730eb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Peace to all. Enjoy your day.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Zaffiroborant and others,
The world today is strong on gender identity confusion. Here is a link to an article that presents the LDS position on motherhood and its importance, which my wife has followed through our lives as parents:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=67acfd758096b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

There is no “shunting”, no disregard for the active and important role of motherhood. There is no need to think a “Heavenly Mother” would need to be worshiped in order to exist. She has a different role than that. God has ordained those roles, and Heavenly Father and the Savior are Whom should be worshiped. We will do that for eternity.

Here is another great article about the role of Heavenly Father and the Savior and the role of mothers:

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=66179527730eb010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD

Peace to all. Enjoy your day.

LDS believe in a plurality of gods, which includes, at least one mother-goddess. Pahoran seems to be denying this. You just want to tell us how wonderful motherhood is, which, yes it is, but not the point.

 

[Pahoran]

LDS believe in a plurality of gods, which includes, at least one mother-goddess. Pahoran seems to be denying this. You just want to tell us how wonderful motherhood is, which, yes it is, but not the point.

Pahoran is denying nothing. Kindly refrain from “interpreting” my posts, since you cannot get it right.

Pahoran is pointing out a meaningful distinction between belief about something and belief in a divinity. We believe some things about our premortal existence, our Heavenly Parents and our postmortal destiny that includes, as a matter of reason, not revelation, that we have “a Mother there.”

But we believe in – i.e. we put our faith, our trust, our confidence and our hope of salvation in – God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

No-one else.

The notion of a “Mormon pantheon” is a malicious misrepresentation.

As, I rather suspect, you know.

I shall continue with the facts. They always stump anti-Mormons.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[RebeccaJ]

Pahoran is denying nothing. Kindly refrain from “interpreting” my posts, since you cannot get it right.

Pahoran is pointing out a meaningful distinction between belief about something and belief in a divinity. We believe some things about our premortal existence, our Heavenly Parents and our postmortal destiny that includes, as a matter of reason, not revelation, that we have “a Mother there.”

But we believe in – i.e. we put our faith, our trust, our confidence and our hope of salvation in – God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

No-one else.

The notion of a “Mormon pantheon” is a malicious misrepresentation.

As, I rather suspect, you know.

I shall continue with the facts. They always stump anti-Mormons.

Regards,
Pahoran

Pan·the·on

1. all the gods collectively of a religion

Your distinction is irrelevant to the definition of pantheon.

 

[Pahoran]

Pan·the·on

1. all the gods collectively of a religion

Your distinction is irrelevant to the definition of pantheon.

Well if you’re going to rely upon such a broad definition, then is the Nicene Trinity the “pantheon” of Catholicism?

Or are you going to backpedal?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well if you’re going to rely upon such a broad definition,

That is the definition of the word. It is you who thinks you can narrow it down by setting some of your gods/goddesses outside the door of the pantheon.

then is the Nicene Trinity the “pantheon” of Catholicism?

Not really sure you can call One God a “pantheon”, since the definition does specify “gods”.

But nice try.

Or are you going to backpedal?

No, but I think you you’ll keep pretending that LDS belief is anything but what it is. Gods and goddesses of untold numbers. Just say it. Be proud of who you are.

 

[Pahoran]

That is the definition of the word. It is you who thinks you can narrow it down by setting some of your gods/goddesses outside the door of the pantheon.

I don’t have any gods/goddesses to settle down outside any doors. I believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Not really sure you can call One God a “pantheon”, since the definition does specify “gods”.

But nice try.

When I was learning arithmetic, I learned that “one” is a number like any other; and if I have one apple in my lunchbox, then one is all the apples I have.

So if one god is all the gods a religion has, then that religion’s pantheon consists of one god.

As I suspected, you’re trying simultaneously to make your definition broad enough to catch LDS pre-creedal trinitarianism, and narrow enough to miss Nicene creedal trinitarianism.

I’m not certain that that works.

No, but I think you you’ll keep pretending that LDS belief is anything but what it is. Gods and goddesses of untold numbers. Just say it. Be proud of who you are.

I am; that’s why I’m not allowing my faith to be wilfully misrepresented.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[RebeccaJ]

That you don’t accept the truth of the One Holy Triune God does not make our belief yours…that of three gods (at least).

You haven’t shown where I’ve misrepresented LDS belief.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Contention:

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that **all their creeds were an abomination in his sight **… He again forbade me to join with any of them (Joseph Smith 2:18-20)

Here is exactly where the contention started

This is the abomination?

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth;
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

**More on the Christian creed **

Christian Odyssey 2005-2014 - PDF files - GCI Archive

Visit gci.org and browse Grace Communion International's extensive library of articles on God, the Bible, faith, and the Christian Life.

archive.gci.org

 

[smad0142]

Well Catholic-rcia I would say that will give all of us who are intellectually honest a reason to pause for a moment.

I mean that Creed can not be an absolute abomination because Mormons agree with some parts of it.

Wow.

 

[smad0142]

Actually on second though I’m pretty sure Mormons believe in ALL of those things.

 

[Pahoran]

Well Catholic-rcia I would say that will give all of us who are intellectually honest a reason to pause for a moment.

I mean that Creed can not be an absolute abomination because Mormons agree with some parts of it.

Wow.

It is just possible that some of us who are intellectually honest might have already considered this.

Indeed, the statement in question did not say “the Creed” or any particular creed, but “all their creeds.” Thus, it seems that the abomination lies, not in specific details of what individual creeds say, but in something about the fundamental nature of “creediness.” (If that’s a word.)

Maybe what’s abominable about creeds is the fact that they try to “define” and declare what believers are allowed to believe, and what they’re supposed to think about their beliefs, rather than that they assert abominable things.

Could that be it?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[smad0142]

Then why do you have an Articles of Faith?

Looks like your creediness is showing. Hahah that last part was pure humor please don’t take offense.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Protestant protestantism.

 

[catholic-rcia]

It is just possible that some of us who are intellectually honest might have already considered this.

Regards,
Pahoran

I think this fits in with intellectual honesty
What was happening in the Christian world while Joseph was being told how evil it was by an angel, or Jesus or God the father not sure which one? Here is a micro slice.

Pope Pius VII
“On the United States’ suppression of the Muslim Barbary Pirates along the southern Mediterranean coast, who kidnapped Christians for ransom and slavery, Pope Pius VII said that the United States “had done more for the cause of Christianity than the most powerful nations of Christendom have done for ages”

One of Pius VII’s first acts was to appoint Ercole Consalvi, who had acted as secretary to the recent conclave, to the college of cardinals and to the office of Cardinal Secretary of State.

From the beginning of his papacy to the fall of Napoleon I of France in 1815, Pius VII was completely involved with France.He and Napoleon were continually in conflict, often involving the French military leader’s wishes for concessions to his demands. Pius wanted the return of the Papal States, and, later on, the release of the 13 Black Cardinals along with several exiled or imprisoned clergymen, monks, nuns, priests, other various supporters including his secretaries of state, and his own release from exile.

More:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12132a.htm

 

[ParkerD]

Well Catholic-rcia I would say that will give all of us who are intellectually honest a reason to pause for a moment.

I mean that Creed can not be an absolute abomination because Mormons agree with some parts of it.

Wow.

SMAD0142,
What Christ told Joseph Smith about “all their creeds” being “an abomination” is along the lines of the following passage in Matthew 15:

1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

When the term “commandments of men” is used, (which term is used several times in the New Testament), it is an allusion to this same teaching by Christ, which was prophesied by Isaiah. It means the people following the “tradition” or the “doctrines” “draw nigh with their mouth,” but that through tradition and changes in doctrine,

“this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:” (Isaiah 29:13)

If fear toward God is “taught by the precept of men,” then that means the outcome will usually be that a person with that kind of fear will not have a heart ready for making the kinds of changes in their life that involve sanctification through the Holy Spirit and through Christ’s guidance toward making those changes. In other words, they will have been responding and listening to “precepts of men” rather than to personal revelation from God to them individually.

Every follower of Christ, LDS included, needs to check their heart often, inwardly, to see whether they are making the kinds of changes in their life that the Holy Spirit will guide them to make. They will become more loving and kind, more forgiving toward others, more compassionate, and have the fruits of the Spirit in their life.

Along with those changes there needs to be in place a real belief that the eventual goal of those changes is to become “like Christ” in word and deed. So whenever people mock the LDS belief that we are to seek to really receive a “joint throne” with Christ and become like Him, by His grace and power and by the Father’s mercy, then what that says to me is that they haven’t understood what the eventual goal is–and how can they reach the goal if they don’t even have the goal in mind as the promised outcome from becoming sanctified?

Such a misunderstanding means the “precepts of men” have gotten in the way of the personal revelation that would confirm that Christ can help them get there, really. Men without revelation don’t believe it is possible, but God will confirm by revelation that that is what He knows they can do, through the grace and power of Christ, and through personal revelation guiding the changes in their life.

 

[ParkerD]

Well Catholic-rcia I would say that will give all of us who are intellectually honest a reason to pause for a moment.

I mean that Creed can not be an absolute abomination because Mormons agree with some parts of it.

Wow.

SMAD0142,

Another aspect of being able to see when the “precepts of men” have gotten in the way of personal revelation from God, is when a person would say that your grandma is “not a Christian” because she is a Mormon. This is a sure evidence that such a person making such a comment has been taught to make that comment by the “precepts of men.” They have not been taught to make that comment through personal revelation from the Holy Ghost. It simply would not happen. It means they are being guided by the precepts of men in order to have such a belief and make such a comment.

Have a wonderful day, and I hope you have learned to understand your grandma’s beliefs a little bit better, and can thus have great, kindly interactions with her.