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RebeccaJ
Guest
You do realize, Smith regularly sought to smear the reputation of those who opposed him, right?
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TexanKnight
Guest
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NeuroTypical
Guest
Sounds like some folks are just concluded that my church works to hide the past. If knowledge of the Joseph Smith Papers project doesn’t put a dent in their conclusions, I doubt there’s anything I can say to help.
For the rest of you, feel free to click around the JSP project. See the original source documents for yourselves. It’s quite a scholarly work.
I, an active member of my church, an Elder who holds the priesthood, serves in a calling weekly, invite you all to come learn about Joseph Smith and early Mormon history, directly from every single source document regarding him that the human race has managed to preserve.
I’m not proselytizing. Please, if you find truth and salvation and peace in Catholicism, stay Catholic. Don’t leave your church and come to mine. Read your Bibles and attend Mass regularly. Donate to CAF. But if you’re interested in early Mormon history, you have a world-class source at your disposal in the Joseph Smith Papers project, and a Mormon is inviting you to come learn about us, warts and all.
The rest of the thread is yours.
For the rest of you, feel free to click around the JSP project. See the original source documents for yourselves. It’s quite a scholarly work.
I, an active member of my church, an Elder who holds the priesthood, serves in a calling weekly, invite you all to come learn about Joseph Smith and early Mormon history, directly from every single source document regarding him that the human race has managed to preserve.
I’m not proselytizing. Please, if you find truth and salvation and peace in Catholicism, stay Catholic. Don’t leave your church and come to mine. Read your Bibles and attend Mass regularly. Donate to CAF. But if you’re interested in early Mormon history, you have a world-class source at your disposal in the Joseph Smith Papers project, and a Mormon is inviting you to come learn about us, warts and all.
The rest of the thread is yours.
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TexanKnight
Guest
I envy you. If I had enjoyed your lack of knowledge of the lds church, I would likely still be lds. To be blissfully unaware of your true history and the true teachings of your past leaders is a gift.
If you love being lds, I pray you continue to be unaware.
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iepuras
Guest
Neurotypical, it is good that the LDS church is publishing the Joseph Smith Papers. However, just because they are publishing the papers doesn’t mean that they are open and honest about issues in other media. It is also very typical for current leadership to simply throw dead prophets and apostles under the bus if what the deads ones said now is embarassing (e.g., racist comments from earlier prophets and apostles such as Brigham Young, Adam/God theory, blood atonement, polygamy, etc).
So you acknowledge that what I said about the Fanny Alger affair is true. Look at the timeline. Fanny Alger was Joseph Smith’s “plural wife” before Elijah restored the sealing keys. Doesn’t this bother you?
Joseph Smith stole the wives of other men, including Zina Jacobs. King David was condemned for stealing Uriah’s wife and murder, and according to Mormon teaching, lost his place in the celestial kingdom for doing so. Joseph stole at least 11 women from their husbands. Why doesn’t this bother you?
According to all the documents the LDS church has preserved, there are multiple versions of the First Vision. Last I read the “Preach the Gospel” manual used by missionaries for teaching about the LDS church, there is only one version of the First Vision is presented. To me, this constitutes hiding the truth from potential converts. Doesn’t this bother you?
In the Teachings of the Prophets manual for Joseph Smith used in Relief Society and Priesthood classes, none of Joseph’s plural wives are mentioned. If Joseph was such a wonderful prophet of God who restored all the lost truths, why doesn’t that manual tell the full truth about how polygamy started including the names of Joseph’s plural wives? There is a timeline for the prophet’s life in the manual and mentions his marriage to Emma. Their marriage is held up as an example of a wonderful loving marriage. Why not also note his first plural marriage to Fanny? What about his marriages to Eliza Snow, the Partridge sisters, Zina Jacobs and Helen Mar Kimball? In the Brigham Young manual, only two wives are mentioned in the timeline and neither were concurrent. Everyone knows that Brigham Young was a big time polygamist. Why not mention his plural wives too? To me, this constitutes hiding the full truth from current members of the LDS church. Doesn’t this bother you?
I could go on and on, but I won’t. I will add that I appreciated a bit more honesty in the Teachings of the Prophets manual for this year on Lorenzo Snow. The book does not include all his wives but at least acknowledges that Lorenzo Snow was a polygamist. That is a small improvement.
Honestly, I don’t know how you can know about these things and still defend the Joseph Smith and the LDS church. Once I put all the pieces together, I knew I had to leave, not only for myself, but for my children. As a woman I was always bothered by polygamy but I tried to understand the doctrine and come to terms with it for years. Once I learned the truth about Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball and Zina Jacobs, I knew that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. David, the great King of Israel was condemned by a prophet for stealing another man’s wife. What makes Joseph Smith above King David?
Feel free to feel persecuted all you want when others speak the truth about Joseph Smith. The truth hurts sometimes. Some of us hear the truth, cover our ears and put it within our hearts very deep in an effort to ignore it. Others hear the truth and make the difficult decision to follow the truth even if we lose our friends and families in the process.
So you acknowledge that what I said about the Fanny Alger affair is true. Look at the timeline. Fanny Alger was Joseph Smith’s “plural wife” before Elijah restored the sealing keys. Doesn’t this bother you?
Joseph Smith stole the wives of other men, including Zina Jacobs. King David was condemned for stealing Uriah’s wife and murder, and according to Mormon teaching, lost his place in the celestial kingdom for doing so. Joseph stole at least 11 women from their husbands. Why doesn’t this bother you?
According to all the documents the LDS church has preserved, there are multiple versions of the First Vision. Last I read the “Preach the Gospel” manual used by missionaries for teaching about the LDS church, there is only one version of the First Vision is presented. To me, this constitutes hiding the truth from potential converts. Doesn’t this bother you?
In the Teachings of the Prophets manual for Joseph Smith used in Relief Society and Priesthood classes, none of Joseph’s plural wives are mentioned. If Joseph was such a wonderful prophet of God who restored all the lost truths, why doesn’t that manual tell the full truth about how polygamy started including the names of Joseph’s plural wives? There is a timeline for the prophet’s life in the manual and mentions his marriage to Emma. Their marriage is held up as an example of a wonderful loving marriage. Why not also note his first plural marriage to Fanny? What about his marriages to Eliza Snow, the Partridge sisters, Zina Jacobs and Helen Mar Kimball? In the Brigham Young manual, only two wives are mentioned in the timeline and neither were concurrent. Everyone knows that Brigham Young was a big time polygamist. Why not mention his plural wives too? To me, this constitutes hiding the full truth from current members of the LDS church. Doesn’t this bother you?
I could go on and on, but I won’t. I will add that I appreciated a bit more honesty in the Teachings of the Prophets manual for this year on Lorenzo Snow. The book does not include all his wives but at least acknowledges that Lorenzo Snow was a polygamist. That is a small improvement.
Honestly, I don’t know how you can know about these things and still defend the Joseph Smith and the LDS church. Once I put all the pieces together, I knew I had to leave, not only for myself, but for my children. As a woman I was always bothered by polygamy but I tried to understand the doctrine and come to terms with it for years. Once I learned the truth about Fanny Alger, Helen Mar Kimball and Zina Jacobs, I knew that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. David, the great King of Israel was condemned by a prophet for stealing another man’s wife. What makes Joseph Smith above King David?
Feel free to feel persecuted all you want when others speak the truth about Joseph Smith. The truth hurts sometimes. Some of us hear the truth, cover our ears and put it within our hearts very deep in an effort to ignore it. Others hear the truth and make the difficult decision to follow the truth even if we lose our friends and families in the process.
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twopekinguys
Guest
You keep touting the smith papers project, but, that is a rather new tactic compared to past behavior of the mormon church.
This project really didn’t come about until they realized the internet was showing the history for them, and they started bleeding members. They are trying to stop the stampede of people leaving.
Prior to this, it is a well known fact that mormon membership was not to read anything that was not faith promoting. This included many things, including documents related to smith’s own behavior.
How about how the polygamy revelation really came about? (smith getting caught with his pants down. Literally) The fact that smith practiced polygamy for several years before it became a “revelation”. Many mormons today don’t know that.
How about the fact that smith shot back, and killed at least one of the attackers? (Elder Reed Blake, 24 hrs to martyrdom). Doesn’t really sound like a lamb being led to the slaughter does it?
How about his conviction for his treasure hunting frauds? How about the fact that he was run out of town after town for these behaviors?
All of this has been hidden for a long time, and the internet brought it to light. Why else would your church be releasing all of this stuff now?
How can you be sure they are revealing all of the papers? What else is hidden in the archives, that they aren’t letting people know about?
Time to connect the dots, don’t you think?
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I’m wondering if Smith wrote that he was tarred and feathered by the brothers of a girl that he, a married man in his thirties, was chasing after. Does he mention running from Kirtland because he was illegally printing his own money and lost thousands of dollars of his followers, who then stopped following him, en masse? How about the Book of Abraham, does he brag how he can translate Egyptian by the power of God? Only, the Rosetta Stone had not been discovered, as it has now, and we know Smith was making it all up.
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TexanKnight
Guest
THIS
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JHow
Guest
I think Champillions work was announced about 1822, which would place J Smith at about 16 or 17 years old. He would have had to have been among the most advanced scholars of his time.
Or, just making stuff up.
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BeProfOSX
Guest
I want to be clear on one thing:
The growing detente between the LDS and Evangelicals isn’t nearly the same thing as what happened between us and Catholics, not by a long shot.
They started the same way: We Evangelicals discovered a valuable political ally on those political points we care deeply about: Namely, life and family issues; but, once we got to know you guys at the marches and the clinics, we came to recognize your deep and genuine faith and that we shared much in common, including, most importantly, Christ Himself. That political alliance forged new friendships that led to the groundbreaking work of Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT).
With the LDS, however, we don’t share a common faith. Their Christ is not our Christ. Their God is not our God. They know that. We know that. We share common moral principles and we are willing to work with one another on political matters related to those moral principles, but both sides are going into this with eyes wide open that there’s never going to be an Evangelicals and Mormons Together, at least not anything like ECT.
I mean… I get that I’m just one Evangelical and with the state of things now, who knows what the heck will happen… but that’s where I stand and I believe that’s where the majority of Evangelical leaders stand at the moment.
The growing detente between the LDS and Evangelicals isn’t nearly the same thing as what happened between us and Catholics, not by a long shot.
They started the same way: We Evangelicals discovered a valuable political ally on those political points we care deeply about: Namely, life and family issues; but, once we got to know you guys at the marches and the clinics, we came to recognize your deep and genuine faith and that we shared much in common, including, most importantly, Christ Himself. That political alliance forged new friendships that led to the groundbreaking work of Evangelicals and Catholics Together (ECT).
With the LDS, however, we don’t share a common faith. Their Christ is not our Christ. Their God is not our God. They know that. We know that. We share common moral principles and we are willing to work with one another on political matters related to those moral principles, but both sides are going into this with eyes wide open that there’s never going to be an Evangelicals and Mormons Together, at least not anything like ECT.
I mean… I get that I’m just one Evangelical and with the state of things now, who knows what the heck will happen… but that’s where I stand and I believe that’s where the majority of Evangelical leaders stand at the moment.
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NeuroTypical
Guest
From what I’ve been able to learn here and other places, I’m pretty much in agreement. I’ve been learning about the term “ecumenism”, and how it applies to various Christian sects and the Catholic church. Mormons pretty much never use the term, and I didn’t know what it meant until I came here and asked around. It’s not a level of togetherness we really spend any time thinking about.
That said, I’m basically ok with that. I’m just happy that we are starting to find people willing to stand in the same room with us, and actually work together in matters of common good.
I really don’t have much in the way of personal persecution stories, but I do have some funny anecdotes:
- My wife was flying to Florida, and struck up a conversation with a friendly person who was totally blown away by my wife’s claims that mormons don’t really have horns. This guy was religious and well-educated, but the notion is still firmly planted in people’s minds.
- We had a friend and pet sitter who, upon finding out we were mormon, actually ducked her head and took a few steps back as if she thought we were going to attack her or abduct her or something. We’d known each other for a year or more - you’d think we would have made our big move earlier.
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twopekinguys
Guest
Actually, the link you gave provides inaccurate information.
They received a grant and an endorsement to “edit” the project.
See here.
It is not an endorsement of what the documents prove, but, merely that they were handled and translated (if necessary) correctly.
You are taking things a little too literally. She meant independent sources, and not all pro-lds sites.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
I don’t believe for a second that the notion that Mormon have horns is firmly implanted in anyone’s mind let alone someone who is well educated. Stories like this are Mormon tall tales and if they do actually occur it’s because people are pulling one over on you. It’s a big joke on the interwebz.
Some people react that way when they’re bracing to be heavily proselytized.
- We had a friend and pet sitter who, upon finding out we were mormon, actually ducked her head and took a few steps back as if she thought we were going to attack her or abduct her or something. We’d known each other for a year or more - you’d think we would have made our big move earlier.
Again no one thinks you have horns, period.It’s a step up to be able to work together with Catholics in the Philippines without anyone worried we’ll abduct you and gore you with our horns.
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BeProfOSX
Guest
I just want to say for the record that I have had several Mormon friends over the years. A good friend in High School was the son of the local Ward’s Bishop. Our neighbors are Mormons and our kids play together all the time and their kids have been to our church our our kids to their church, but only for non-religious activities. My barber (back when I still had enough hair to cut) was Mormon as were several of the Realtors that worked at the agency where my wife was the secretary. With the exception of the barber, all of them have been active, practicing, Temple Endowed Mormons.
At no time during my friendships with any of these people have I ever been subject to hard-sell proselytization. Even when, in the course of normal relationships, theological or even more generically spiritual topics have come up, they would do little more than tell us what they believe and why and then genuinely listen to us when we told them why we believe what we believe.
I can honestly say that of the dozens of Mormons I have known over the years, they have been nothing if not kind, caring, and generally upstanding people and I am more than glad to have them in my life and, where possible, to work with them on social and political issues. I don’t consider them Christians, and they know that, and they don’t really consider me to be a “true” Christian (by their definition) and I know that. I don’t expect to see them in heaven and they don’t expect to see me in heaven either (well… not the Celestial Kingdom at least.) That grieves me deeply and I pray for them daily on that point as I’m sure they do for me, but at no point has our relationships ever been strained or acrimonious or in any way anything other than pleasant.
At no time during my friendships with any of these people have I ever been subject to hard-sell proselytization. Even when, in the course of normal relationships, theological or even more generically spiritual topics have come up, they would do little more than tell us what they believe and why and then genuinely listen to us when we told them why we believe what we believe.
I can honestly say that of the dozens of Mormons I have known over the years, they have been nothing if not kind, caring, and generally upstanding people and I am more than glad to have them in my life and, where possible, to work with them on social and political issues. I don’t consider them Christians, and they know that, and they don’t really consider me to be a “true” Christian (by their definition) and I know that. I don’t expect to see them in heaven and they don’t expect to see me in heaven either (well… not the Celestial Kingdom at least.) That grieves me deeply and I pray for them daily on that point as I’m sure they do for me, but at no point has our relationships ever been strained or acrimonious or in any way anything other than pleasant.
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kimg901
Guest
If the lds church really the true church of Jesus, why cant everyone enter the temples? Does Jesus really discriminate against people?
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TexanKnight
Guest
the lds church is known for discrimination…from blacks not being allowed into the priesthood, to children not being part of the household, to families being unable to witness marriages in the temple if they are not LDS
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iepuras
Guest
And let’s not forget that women are shut out from the celestial kingdom unless their husbands call them.
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JHow
Guest
Moses (who by now has likely had at least one Mormon proxy baptism) had horns, if Michelangelo Buonarroti is any judge, so there’s that. You can see this sculpture in the Church of San Pietro in Vincoli in Rome.
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LiberalPrincess
Guest
Now only if evangelical Christians would have a detente with gays and their allies who are fighting for marriage equality and their civil rights. 
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TexanKnight
Guest
Hmmm…and you are a Catholic?
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