Mormon general authority teaches God the Father is resurrected being

[Vico]

I agree. I was saying what Mormons believe.

A radical difference between Catholic teaching that creation is ex nihilo and that it is not an emanation is the LDS teaching that creation is not ex nihilo and there is self-existing intelligence organized into individual spirit beings.

Encyclopedia of Mormonism states:

Latter-day Saints reject the troublesome premise of creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), affirming rather that there are actualities that are coeternal with God. These coeternal actualities include intelligences (sometimes perceived as primal selves or persons), chaotic matter (or mass energy), and laws and principles (perhaps best regarded as the properties and relations of matter and intelligences) (2:478).

 

[Horton]

We have discussed cherry picking verses before. Still not a logical way of proving anything.

The Work of the Son. 19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, a son cannot do anything on his own, but only what he sees his father doing; for what he does, his son will do also. For the Father loves his Son and shows him everything that he himself does, and he will show him greater works than these, so that you may be amazed. 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes. 22 Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son, so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. 25 Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live

The rest of the text. As you see, it says nothing about God being a resurrected being. It actually gives more evidence for the trinity.

Therefore. if Jesus took up His own life, we can safely conclude that The Father did so at one point.

We cannot safely conclude that God was once man and is a resurrected being. Once again Fairmormon did you no favors here. In reading all of John 10, one can clearly see the message Jesus is trying to relay.

 

[gazelam]

Mormons aren’t Christians.

This statement is 100% false.

 

[gazelam]

A radical difference between Catholic teaching that creation is ex nihilo and that it is not an emanation is the LDS teaching that creation is not ex nihilo and there is self-existing intelligence organized into individual spirit beings.

The doctrine that God’s creation is out of nothing is opposed to what the Bible teaches.

As Stanley L. Jaki, a Catholic priest of the Benedictine Order, stated:

The caution which is in order about taking the [Hebrew] verb bara in the sense of creation out of nothing is no less needed in reference to the [English] word creation. Nothing is more natural, and unadvised, at the same time, than to use the word as if it has always denoted creation out of nothing. In its basic etymological origin the word creation meant the purely natural process of growing or of making something to grow. This should be obvious by a mere recall of the [Latin] verb crescere. The crescent moon [derived from crescere] is not creating but merely growing. The expression ex nihilo or de nihilo had to be fastened, from around 200 A.D. on, by Christian theologians on the verb creare to convey unmistakably a process, strict creation, which only God can perform. Only through the long-standing use of those very Latin expressions, creare ex nihilo and creatio ex nihilo, could the English words to create and creation take on the meaning which excludes pre-existing matter. Stanley L. Jaki, Genesis 1 Through the Ages (Royal Oak, Mich.: Real View Books, 1998), 5-6.

 

[gazelam]

We cannot safely conclude that God was once man and is a resurrected being.

That’s an odd claim to make given that Christ specifically referred to His Father as a man.

John 8:17, 18

Even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men can be verified. I testify on my behalf and so does the Father who sent me.

Once again Fairmormon did you no favors here.

I’m getting pretty darn good at this apologetics stuff myself. I think I could give FAIRMormon a run for it’s money. What do you think about “FAIRGazelam”? It has a nice ring to it!

 

[GiftofMercy]

The doctrine that God’s creation is out of nothing is opposed to what the Bible teaches.

Are you a student of Biblical Hebrew? If so what are the first few verses of Gen 1: 1-3.

Clearly written text and interestingly God does use the term ‘we’ at times.

And your priest might be wrong about the way to translate. Or you are not putting this quote in context. It mightbe more charitable to do just that
I believe we have discussed this before. And I do not believe you have this 'proof ’ of yours in any sort of context

 

[Horton]

As Stanley L. Jaki, a Catholic priest of the Benedictine Order, stated:

The caution which is in order about taking the [Hebrew] verb bara in the sense of creation out of nothing is no less needed in reference to the [English] word creation. Nothing is more natural, and unadvised, at the same time, than to use the word as if it has always denoted creation out of nothing. In its basic etymological origin the word creation meant the purely natural process of growing or of making something to grow. This should be obvious by a mere recall of the [Latin] verb crescere. The crescent moon [derived from crescere] is not creating but merely growing. The expression ex nihilo or de nihilo had to be fastened, from around 200 A.D. on, by Christian theologians on the verb creare to convey unmistakably a process, strict creation, which only God can perform. Only through the long-standing use of those very Latin expressions, creare ex nihilo and creatio ex nihilo, could the English words to create and creation take on the meaning which excludes pre-existing matter. Stanley L. Jaki, Genesis 1 Through the Ages (Royal Oak, Mich.: Real View Books, 1998), 5-6.

Apparently Stanley L, Jaki’s work was discredited here:

Creation Out of Nothing: A Biblical, Philosophical, and Scientific Exploration - Paul Copan, William Lane Craig - Google Books

He may not be the best “scholar” to choose from Fairmorman, which is exactly where I found what you quoted.

Just an FYI, apologetics is a way of DEFENDING your faith, not what you do, as in trying to destroy the faith of others.

 

[RuthAnne]

Yeah. Y’all are Christian’s. It’s like defining a chicken as a carrot and claiming that eating chicken makes me a vegetarian.

 

[gazelam]

Apparently Stanley L, Jaki’s work was discredited here:
Creation Out of Nothing: A Biblical, Philosophical, and Scientific Exploration - Paul Copan, William Lane Craig - Google Books

It very curious that you use Protestants to discredit a highly regarded Catholic scholar.

And do you have any thoughts on Jesus referring to His Father as a man?

 

[gazelam]

gazelam:

The doctrine that God’s creation is out of nothing is opposed to what the Bible teaches.

Are you a student of Biblical Hebrew? If so what are the first few verses of Gen 1: 1-3.

Clearly written text and interestingly God does use the term ‘we’ at times.

And your priest might be wrong about the way to translate. Or you are not putting this quote in context. It mightbe more charitable to do just that
I believe we have discussed this before. And I do not believe you have this 'proof ’ of yours in any sort of context

The only Hebrew word I know is “Shalom”. As far as context goes, I believe 2 Peter 3:5 does the trick:

They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God;

So more evidence from the Bible against creation ex nihilo. Water isn’t nothing. It’s something.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

A radical difference between Catholic teaching that creation is ex nihilo and that it is not an emanation is the LDS teaching that creation is not ex nihilo and there is self-existing intelligence organized into individual spirit beings.

The doctrine that God’s creation is out of nothing is opposed to what the Bible teaches.
…

No. As in Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, pp. 79-80:

a) The creation of the world out of nothing may be proved indirectly by the fact that the name Jahweh, and with it, necessary self-existence (Aseity), is attributed to God alone, while all other things in comparison with God are called nothing. From this follows the conclusion that everything outside God must attribute its existence to God.
…
The verb bara (==create) can, indeed, also mean produce in the wider sense, but it is used almost exclusively of the Divine Activity; apart from Gn. 1, 27, it is never associated with the presence of a material, out of which God produces something. According to the usage of the biblical narrative in Gn. 1, 1, it expresses creation out of nothing only. Cf. Ps. 123, 8; 145, 6; 32, 9.

 

[gazelam]

No, it’s 100% accurate and that’s why the Catholic Church doesn’t recognize Mormon baptisms as valid. Mormons are polytheists who believe a whole host of heresies a con man drummed up out of a hat.

This remark is untrue and very uncharitable.

 

[Stephen168]

As Stanley L. Jaki, a Catholic priest of the Benedictine Order, stated:

This often cut and pasted quote has no bearing on the Christian believe of creation ex nihilo.

The Greek philosophers of the first century believed in the eternal existence of matter. This was not a Jewish idea and should not be assumed in the Old Testament. Some of these philosophers were converts to Christianity. The God of the Hebrews was the uncreated creator. How did creation happen was not something the earliest Jews would have thought about, but creation ex niliho is consistent with the creation account in Genesis: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

Later in the Maccabees we find:

I beg you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. - 2 Maccabees 7:28

God created from his Word; the Logos.

And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light

By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,

and by the breath of his mouth all their host.

He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap;

he puts the deeps in storehouses.

Let all the earth fear the Lord;

let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!

For he spoke, and it came to be;

he commanded, and it stood firm.

God has always been the uncreated creator of all things. First, there was the creator, and then everything else.

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

“Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created.

yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God, who created all things,

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

There was never the Alpha and other stuff, or the belief that God created Most Things. God created All Things, even the matter from which he created other things.

-Cont-

 

[Stephen168]

In the Shepard of Hermas (90AD-150AD):

God, who dwells in the heavens, and made out of nothing the things that exist, and multiplied and increased them on account of His holy Church, is angry with you for having sinned against me.” - The Shepard of Hermas Book 1, Chapter 1.

The Odes of Solomon (75AD-150AD)

And there is nothing outside of the Lord, because He was before anything came to be.

And the worlds are by His Word, and by the thought of His heart.

Praise and honor to His name.

Hallelujah. - The Odes of Solomon; Ode 16

The Gospel of John (90AD)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:1-3

Epistle to the Romans

as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. - Romans 4:17

Epistle to the Hebrews

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. - Hebrews 11:3

Epistle to the Colossians (80AD)

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. - Colossians 1:16

And the philosophers called Stoics teach that even God Himself shall be resolved into fire, and they say that the world is to be formed anew by this revolution; but we understand that God, the Creator of all things, is superior to the things that are to be changed. - Justin Martyr

Grudging existence to none therefore, He made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. - Athanasius

He [Plato] said that God had made all things out of pre-existent and uncreated matter, just as the carpenter makes things only out of wood that already exists. But those who hold this view do not realize that to deny that God is Himself the Cause of matter is to impute limitation to Him, just as it is undoubtedly a limitation on the part of the carpenter that he can make nothing unless he has the wood. How could God be called Maker and Artificer if His ability to make depended on some other cause, namely on matter itself? - Athanasius

This is the God of the Christianity. The triune God, who created All Things through his Word; Jesus Christ. The Word who became man.

God was never a man, who lived in a world already created, as Joseph Smith claimed, and Mormonism believed, using John 5:19 as a prooftext.

 

[Stephen168]

Water isn’t nothing. It’s something.

God created water.

 

[Horton]

It very curious that you use Protestants to discredit

Why would that be. Protestant Christians believe much the same way Catholic Christians do as far as God & creation. It is only non-Christians like the LDS who have refuse to believe the truth.

 

[Wesrock]

Henotheism would be more appropriate for LDS theology.

 

[GiftofMercy]

The only Hebrew word I know is “Shalom”.

Then it would behove you not to discuss what God’s creation is all about as far as what the Bible teaches. The Creation story is in Biblical Hebrew. I strongly suspect you , as we have discussed before, have this quote way out of context and interpretation.

They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God;

Who is deliberately ignoring the fact that the heavens existed of old and the earth was formed out of water and through water by God. Lets discuss this as per its original text. Verse by Verse.

 

[GiftofMercy]

How did creation happen was not something the earliest Jews would have thought about, but creation ex niliho is consistent with the creation account in Genesis: In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

I would disagree strongly here. Why would you believe that Jewish people did not think about Creation.

Your second point does not take into account the original text.

 

[thistle]

Mormons aren’t Christians.

It is 100% true. Mormons are NOT Christians.