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BartBurk
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I suppose most Mormons don’t believe this, but if you really believe God is not the ultimate God of the universe then it makes a certain amount of sense.
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nebula
Guest
Very interesting quote Bart. One interesting thing for me to investigate is how fast Mormonism’s theology is changing with the coming generation. The quote clearly represents standard Mormon theology as taught since Joseph Smith’s last couple of years until a few decades ago. Such theology was even taught at lectures at the veil in the temple.
Let me ask you Bart, out of all of the Mormons you know what percentage think that they are monotheists even though their 13 articles of faith repudiates that position? I’d make a guess from my experience and say upwards of 75-80%. The LDS church does a terrible job teaching theology (and no, not only non Mormons think so either) particularly to new converts who may never learn the basics of eternal progression. It’s only a matter of time until LDS Mormonism is evangelical Christianity PLUS (plus the BoM and vague Joseph Smith vision story).
That’s my prediction anyway, I could be wrong.
Let me ask you Bart, out of all of the Mormons you know what percentage think that they are monotheists even though their 13 articles of faith repudiates that position? I’d make a guess from my experience and say upwards of 75-80%. The LDS church does a terrible job teaching theology (and no, not only non Mormons think so either) particularly to new converts who may never learn the basics of eternal progression. It’s only a matter of time until LDS Mormonism is evangelical Christianity PLUS (plus the BoM and vague Joseph Smith vision story).
That’s my prediction anyway, I could be wrong.
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BartBurk
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I don’t think most Mormons think about theology beyond believing that Jesus died for their sins, the Book of Mormon is true and Joseph Smith was a true prophet. They are more concerned with keeping the commandments of the Mormon Church than they are with theology.
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nebula
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In general this is true. There are ‘theologians’ or ‘scriptorians’ in Mormon culture who like that stuff but in general most are trying to do their callings, work on emergency preparedness, ‘read’ a daily portion of scripture, do home/visiting teaching by the end of the month… well, you know the drill.
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William_M
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BartBurk and nebula
If you believe that God, like everything in the universe, is subject to the law, in the sense that the law cannot be defied without consequences, then Brother Skousen makes perfect sense.
He is relying in part, maybe large part on Alma Chapter 42, especially verses 13, 22, 23 and 25.
He is explaining the need for the atonement. “What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one wit. If so, God would cease to be God.” Alma 42:25. “But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement . . . .” Alma 42:23.
“And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them [the penitent] in the arms of safety . . . .” Alma 34:16.
You might want to get Brother Skousen’s talk “A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement” on DVD or CD from www.Skousen2000.com
If you believe that God, like everything in the universe, is subject to the law, in the sense that the law cannot be defied without consequences, then Brother Skousen makes perfect sense.
He is relying in part, maybe large part on Alma Chapter 42, especially verses 13, 22, 23 and 25.
He is explaining the need for the atonement. “What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one wit. If so, God would cease to be God.” Alma 42:25. “But God ceaseth not to be God, and mercy claimeth the penitent, and mercy cometh because of the atonement . . . .” Alma 42:23.
“And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them [the penitent] in the arms of safety . . . .” Alma 34:16.
You might want to get Brother Skousen’s talk “A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement” on DVD or CD from www.Skousen2000.com
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RebeccaJ
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Are you saying God is subject to atonement?
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
the whole of creation could turn from God and God would still be God. He is not dependent upon any of creation to sustain him as he is what sustains creation.
This thinking is but one that make LDS a false religion.
TO say that the Alpha and Omega The Great I AM is dependent upon anyone is… incomprehensible.
This thinking is but one that make LDS a false religion.
TO say that the Alpha and Omega The Great I AM is dependent upon anyone is… incomprehensible.
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LAMBOFGODGIRLY
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This is unreal!! I can not believe that people fell for this man as being a prophet! What blasphemy to say that God is submissive or was once submissive to another God. That’s horrible! It makes you have a bad feeling just reading somthing like like.
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nebula
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I believe that God is the creator of the laws of the cosmos, not a result of them. That is, God is Creator, not a part of the natural order (=creature). Mormonism teaches that God is only quantatively different from us, as a newborn is different from his father, I believe in a God who is qualitatively different, as a rock is different from a great king.
I hope that clears up the difference.
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why_me
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What are the commandments of the Mormon Church? It seems that the lds follow the teachings of Paul very well, especially the idea that the body is a temple for the holy spirit to dwell and should be treated as such.
Now of course, the lds faith does have its own word of wisdom understanding as commandment. But then again, catholics also have commandments that are particular to the catholic faith—not to eat meat on friday, a popular catholic idea when I was a boy. Not to mention obligatory masses etc.
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why_me
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And yet, God made us in his image.
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BartBurk
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So if we quit sustaining God as God who becomes God?
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ralphinal
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If there was no creation, would there be a God?
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tundramom
Guest
I don’t believe, like nebula, that Mormons are uninterested in theology as a whole. I do believe that they are interested in their OWN theology very much.
Growing up Mormon, I didn’t get a sense that we were that interested in anything that wasn’t Mormon other than to show how we were right and everyone else was wrong.
The end times seemed to be a big part of my religious training with a lot of speculation and interest in the hows and whys.
I don’t remember doing any sort of comparative theology, though.
and I certainly don’t believe that most Mormons would admit that they agree with Skousen. They probably do for the most part, but would never admit it. Probably even to themselves without a lot of contemplation.
in Christ
Steph
Growing up Mormon, I didn’t get a sense that we were that interested in anything that wasn’t Mormon other than to show how we were right and everyone else was wrong.
The end times seemed to be a big part of my religious training with a lot of speculation and interest in the hows and whys.
I don’t remember doing any sort of comparative theology, though.
and I certainly don’t believe that most Mormons would admit that they agree with Skousen. They probably do for the most part, but would never admit it. Probably even to themselves without a lot of contemplation.
in Christ
Steph
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mfbukowski
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Yep. Nor, of course is it doctrinal.
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mfbukowski
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CFR
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mfbukowski
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I disagree. Virtually every high priest I know is an amateur theologian. So say, what, 10-15% of active members who attend sacrament meeting would be in this category. I guess your term “in general” might be correct, since this means 85-90% are NOT in this category, but I strongly suspect that 10-15 % of active catholics are not “amateur theologians”.
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mfbukowski
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I agree, but let me ask another question then
If God created the laws, would he violate his own laws?
And if he violated his own laws, would he cease to be God?
I hope you actually answer these questions instead of letting them pass.
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nebula
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Right… God MADE us. Our parents did not make us in teh same way that God MADE us. Your parents and you are both creatures. God is hte Creator of all of us. See the difference?
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nebula
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Well, first your earlier post- it would be most useful to do a comparison. Are Mormons in general less or more interested in theological issues than other religious groups? If we’re doing a general comparison say, to the whole of Catholicism, then I suspect percentages are going to be similar. Plenty of people who identify as Catholics do so because it’s the thiing to do, it’s their family and so forth, and similar to Mormons. Those types of adherents frankly don’t want to get beyond the basics and don’t want to be challenged. I suspect in any religious group that is large enough and survives more than a hundred yrs this group ends up being a substantial portion of those who are at least somewhat active in their religious group- what shall we say, 60-70%? and it doesn’t matter if Mormon, catholic or what, this group shows up no matter.
A different question would be is if there is something inherent in MOrmon ways of approaching the world that do not promote ‘theology’ as it is done by most of the Christian world who ‘does theology’ and here I argue there is a difference. Mormonism consciously rejects attempts of systematization and much of understanding Mormonism lies in understanding Mormon history in a way that isn’t true of Catholicism or Reformed groups or what have you. That’s actually why we have such a tough time defining what Mormon theology even IS sometimes- if I quote the Gospel Principle manual printed by the LDS church, point out that the very first Gospel Principles class I came to as an investigator, explicitly taught that God the father was once a man on another planet who progressed to godhead like we all can- doesn’t THAT count as Mormon doctrine? And yet, there are Mormons who aren’t going to accept that, and some MOrmons will reject using the BIble dictionary as a similar source-- adn the killer is, there is nowhere for you or me to go in Mormonism to settle the debate as to what counts! I’m not making a judgement here about whether that is a strength or a weakness, just pointing out a fact of Mormon ideology.
Now, as to your post about God, I would say that given God’s nature as transcendent and infinite, and our state as dependent and finite, we just have to trust that God isn’t a liar in his revelation to us. This, I argue, is the essence of faith- trust in another Person, in this case, God. He puts forth his case to us throughout his special revelation (Bible) culminating in the person of Christ, as well as through general revelation (creation) that we have reason to hope. Hope, faith and love
.How does this relate to your question about God violating ‘his own laws’? Well, like I said, we’re in a very precarious state. If God wished, we’d cease to exist in a moment. Without God, we are vapor. I don’t like to get into arguments about whether or not God could make a rock so heavy he couldn’t lift it, or whether or not God could be ‘evil’ because all of that seems so beside the point and frankly a waste of time. As finite beings we cannot comprehend the depths of infinity- by definition. We are newborns who can barely see thrust into a lecture about particle physics and we really think we can come to conclusions about what God can and cannot do?
God asks us to trust in him, puts forth his case, pleads with us, mere creatures, mere dust that he esteems as children, that we trust in him and his goodness. We don’t get certainty, we have faith and I fully trust our faith will be rewarded with full certainty, as a spouse learns just how trustworthy and faithful and loving her new husband is.
I hope that answers your question mf. I’m not trying to be cute- I literally don’t think we can TRULY comprehend God beyond what he has revealed to us about his nature and therefore cannot answer your question because we cannot, by nature, understand the trascendent Creator to that extent.
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