Mormon God is only God because we sustain him as God

[nebula]

mf,

Oh yes, another brief but obvious point of observation concerning Mormon ways of doing theology- there are no professional Mormon theologians as there is in say evangelical Christianity, liberal Christianity and so forth… so there is a different sort of approach going on.

 

[RebeccaJ]

mf,

Oh yes, another brief but obvious point of observation concerning Mormon ways of doing theology- there are no professional Mormon theologians as there is in say evangelical Christianity, liberal Christianity and so forth… so there is a different sort of approach going on.

There is not a theological degree to be found at BYU, which is interesting.

 

[nebula]

Rebecca,

I agree. And the Mormon leadership in general doesn’t know about theology proper, which is also interesting, but explains a lot. If the prophet/president isn’t an actual theologian (in the technical sense of the word) and can’t even be said to have theological or philosophical training, then is it any surprise that pinning down what Mormon theology is is like trying to pin the tail on a rabid donkey?

 

[mfbukowski]

How does this relate to your question about God violating ‘his own laws’? Well, like I said, we’re in a very precarious state. If God wished, we’d cease to exist in a moment. Without God, we are vapor. I don’t like to get into arguments about whether or not God could make a rock so heavy he couldn’t lift it, or whether or not God could be ‘evil’ because all of that seems so beside the point and frankly a waste of time.

No argument here. But I was really asking another question that maybe I didn’t ask clearly enough. Is a miracle of violation of the laws of physics or not, and would God violate the laws of physics?

I am only asking the question to probe the OP a little because I think this is essentially what Skousen was saying – not that God can be evil, but even if he violates his own laws for “good” he would cease to be God. In a sense, perhaps this is the “rock big enough he cannot lift” problem, but frankly I feel no vested interest in if Skousen is right or not. It doesn’t really impact LDS theology much that I can see at the moment.

When we violate laws we make for ourselves we know it. “OK no chocolate for Lent. Absolutely none”. That’s making your own law. Then if you violate it is it a “sin” even though otherwise it would not be a sin? I think that is the central question of the OP, and the other part of that, does that idea pertain to God?

So if God violates his own laws, is it a sin, and thus, he ceases to be God but becomes a sinner?

Another interesting point is that in some sense the elements themselves “voluntarily” obey his commands and thus moutains are moved and worlds created.

I suppose this plugs ultimately into the “Gaia” notion that the earth is in some sense alive which I find an interesting idea worth exploring.

I hope that answers your question mf. I’m not trying to be cute- I literally don’t think we can TRULY comprehend God beyond what he has revealed to us about his nature and therefore cannot answer your question because we cannot, by nature, understand the trascendent Creator to that extent.

I don’t disagree at all, but what this implies to me is that we should all stop this discussion, forget about it, and go have lunch.

Which actually sounds like a good idea at the moment.

 

[mfbukowski]

Rebecca,

I agree. And the Mormon leadership in general doesn’t know about theology proper, which is also interesting, but explains a lot. If the prophet/president isn’t an actual theologian (in the technical sense of the word) and can’t even be said to have theological or philosophical training, then is it any surprise that pinning down what Mormon theology is is like trying to pin the tail on a rabid donkey?

Ah yes. And yet for some silly reason we rely on the theology of that silly uneducated fisherman… what was his name? Oh yes, Peter. That man had no qualifications whatsoever, right?

God should have chosen someone smarter, like one of us-- what was God thinking anyway?

 

[mfbukowski]

mf,

Oh yes, another brief but obvious point of observation concerning Mormon ways of doing theology- there are no professional Mormon theologians as there is in say evangelical Christianity, liberal Christianity and so forth… so there is a different sort of approach going on.

Are you nuts? Of course there are professional Mormon theologians! Did I miss the sarcasm here or something? Every professor in the religion department at BYU is a professional Mormon theologian. I guess I missed a joke here somewhere?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ah yes. And yet for some silly reason we rely on the theology of that silly uneducated fisherman… what was his name? Oh yes, Peter. That man had no qualifications whatsoever, right?

God should have chosen someone smarter, like one of us-- what was God thinking anyway?

Didn’t I see that your opinion is that Jesus must have anticipated a great apostasy because He lived at a time when people were uneducated?

Can’t have it both ways bukowski.

 

[Ross09]

No argument here. But I was really asking another question that maybe I didn’t ask clearly enough. Is a miracle of violation of the laws of physics or not, and would God violate the laws of physics?

I am only asking the question to probe the OP a little because I think this is essentially what Skousen was saying – not that God can be evil, but even if he violates his own laws for “good” he would cease to be God. In a sense, perhaps this is the “rock big enough he cannot lift” problem, but frankly I feel no vested interest in if Skousen is right or not. It doesn’t really impact LDS theology much that I can see at the moment.

When we violate laws we make for ourselves we know it. “OK no chocolate for Lent. Absolutely none”. That’s making your own law. Then if you violate it is it a “sin” even though otherwise it would not be a sin? I think that is the central question of the OP, and the other part of that, does that idea pertain to God?

So if God violates his own laws, is it a sin, and thus, he ceases to be God but becomes a sinner?

The laws of physics are not part of the moral code. If an astronaut defies gravity as the shuttle gets lift off, is he sinning? I think you know a law in science has a different meaning from moral law or even legal law.
God is not bound by the “laws” of science. He is above and beyond them. God is not of this world anyway, so it doesn’t bother me to think there are “different rules” in heaven, which I believe is a state of being more than a physical place. That sort of makes physical laws irrelevant. Maybe you will disagree.

 

[nebula]

Are you nuts? Of course there are professional Mormon theologians! Did I miss the sarcasm here or something? Every professor in the religion department at BYU is a professional Mormon theologian. I guess I missed a joke here somewhere?

It’s nto theology, it’s chuch history and ‘doctrine’. It’s a different approach. A professor of ancient scripture isn’t a professional theologian, neither is a professor of history. Again, Mormonism takes a unique approach.

 

[nebula]

Ah yes. And yet for some silly reason we rely on the theology of that silly uneducated fisherman… what was his name? Oh yes, Peter. That man had no qualifications whatsoever, right?

God should have chosen someone smarter, like one of us-- what was God thinking anyway?

Why so defensive? Simply pointing out a fact. We can argue about the merits and demerits of the system in a different thread if you wish.

 

[josie_L]

I agree, but let me ask another question then

If God created the laws, would he violate his own laws?

And if he violated his own laws, would he cease to be God?

I hope you actually answer these questions instead of letting them pass.

YES, God can violate his own (Natural) laws for HE lives outside of the confines of space and time, that is why HE is ETERNAL. Are you implying that if God violates these laws he is no longer God?. What about miracles?

Sorry, if the question was already answered I did not read all the posts

 

[nebula]

No argument here. But I was really asking another question that maybe I didn’t ask clearly enough. Is a miracle of violation of the laws of physics or not, and would God violate the laws of physics?

I am only asking the question to probe the OP a little because I think this is essentially what Skousen was saying – not that God can be evil, but even if he violates his own laws for “good” he would cease to be God. In a sense, perhaps this is the “rock big enough he cannot lift” problem, but frankly I feel no vested interest in if Skousen is right or not. It doesn’t really impact LDS theology much that I can see at the moment.

When we violate laws we make for ourselves we know it. “OK no chocolate for Lent. Absolutely none”. That’s making your own law. Then if you violate it is it a “sin” even though otherwise it would not be a sin? I think that is the central question of the OP, and the other part of that, does that idea pertain to God?

So if God violates his own laws, is it a sin, and thus, he ceases to be God but becomes a sinner?

Another interesting point is that in some sense the elements themselves “voluntarily” obey his commands and thus moutains are moved and worlds created.

I suppose this plugs ultimately into the “Gaia” notion that the earth is in some sense alive which I find an interesting idea worth exploring.

I don’t disagree at all, but what this implies to me is that we should all stop this discussion, forget about it, and go have lunch.

Which actually sounds like a good idea at the moment.

Well I’ve had my lunch so I’m ready to go again.

Yes, God can violate the rules of physics because they are inherent in the natural order that he created and he is not bound by them. He could have chosent hem to be different and therefore they are not necessary, though objective.

Moral laws are trickier because they could be considered to be necessary which makes the argument much different. I refuse to have a dogmatic stance on it for the reasons I already stated to you, though I don’t mind throwing ideas around.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Are you nuts? Of course there are professional Mormon theologians! Did I miss the sarcasm here or something? Every professor in the religion department at BYU is a professional Mormon theologian. I guess I missed a joke here somewhere?

What qualifies someone as a theologian in Mormonism?

 

[PaulDupre]

I agree, but let me ask another question then

If God created the laws, would he violate his own laws?

When we get there, we can ask Him, but my guess would be no.

And if he violated his own laws, would he cease to be God?

You really don’t get it. God cannot cease to be God because it is His nature to be God.

mfbukowski, if you broke the laws of man, would you cease to be a human being? Of course not, because it is your nature to be a human being. You cannot stop being a human any more than God can stop being God. No one can take your human-ness away from you because it is not something you have, it is what you are. No one can take God’s “God-ness” from Him because it is not something he has, it is what He is.

The problem you Mormons have is that you think God is a human who occupies the office of a god. Therefore, just as a town’s mayor can be thrown out of office for malfeasance, you think God can be thrown out of office.

That, I think, is the most fundamental difference between Christians and Mormons.

Paul

 

[PaulDupre]

YES, God can violate his own (Natural) laws for HE lives outside of the confines of space and time, that is why HE is ETERNAL. Are you implying that if God violates these laws he is no longer God?. What about miracles?

Miracles are not necessarily a violation of natural law, but rather a higher operation of those laws that we presently do not understand.

Paul

 

[mfbukowski]

The laws of physics are not part of the moral code. If an astronaut defies gravity as the shuttle gets lift off, is he sinning? I think you know a law in science has a different meaning from moral law or even legal law.
God is not bound by the “laws” of science. He is above and beyond them. God is not of this world anyway, so it doesn’t bother me to think there are “different rules” in heaven, which I believe is a state of being more than a physical place. That sort of makes physical laws irrelevant. Maybe you will disagree.

Of course not. I didn’t know that weightlessness defies the laws of physics.

 

[mfbukowski]

Well I’ve had my lunch so I’m ready to go again.

Yes, God can violate the rules of physics because they are inherent in the natural order that he created and he is not bound by them. He could have chosent hem to be different and therefore they are not necessary, though objective.

Moral laws are trickier because they could be considered to be necessary which makes the argument much different. I refuse to have a dogmatic stance on it for the reasons I already stated to you, though I don’t mind throwing ideas around.

Yeah, me too. So morally, he can’t decide to be bad? I don’t want to phrase that like an omnipotence issue- No trap or anything I promise – just asking to see what you think.

The issue is could God violate ANY rule that would make him cease to be what we would call “God”? A moral law would do… striking someone dead for no reason?

I think we cannot come up with an example because the very question defies what we define as “God”.

Perhaps the whole notion of God breaking a law is contradictory, and if that is the case, maybe that is what Skousen is saying – that would mean he was no longer “God” ----???

 

[mfbukowski]

What qualifies someone as a theologian in Mormonism?

I don’t know-- what qualifies them in Catholicism? A degree I suppose-- “a man must be trained for the ministry”…

“Professional”= someone who makes money doing something

“Theologian”= someone who writes theology

“Professional Thologian”= someone who makes money writing about theology.

Lots of those in Mormonism

 

[Ross09]

Of course not. I didn’t know that weightlessness defies the laws of physics.

they have to defy gravity to leave earth…defying a law…that seems to be the idea behind what you posted with God sinning if he doesn’t follow his own laws, including physical laws of this universe.

 

[Ross09]

I don’t know-- what qualifies them in Catholicism? A degree I suppose-- “a man must be trained for the ministry”…

“Professional”= someone who makes money doing something

“Theologian”= someone who writes theology

“Professional Thologian”= someone who makes money writing about theology.

Lots of those in Mormonism

I guess by those standards Hagee and Joel Osteen would count?