Mormon God is only God because we sustain him as God

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PaulDupre said:
When we get there, we can ask Him, but my guess would be no.

You really don’t get it. God cannot cease to be God because it is His nature to be God.

mfbukowski, if you broke the laws of man, would you cease to be a human being? Of course not, because it is your nature to be a human being. You cannot stop being a human any more than God can stop being God. No one can take your human-ness away from you because it is not something you have, it is what you are. No one can take God’s “God-ness” from Him because it is not something he has, it is what He is.

The problem you Mormons have is that you think God is a human who occupies the office of a god. Therefore, just as a town’s mayor can be thrown out of office for malfeasance, you think God can be thrown out of office.

That, I think, is the most fundamental difference between Christians and Mormons.

Paul
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There you go with “nature” again. Don’t know what it means. A rational non insane guy kills a pregnant woman for fun. Is that human nature? Wouldn’t we say something like “that animal!” That’s inhuman!

Is it human nature to be someone like Mother Theresa, or is she extraordinary because she is “above” human nature?

And why do we have a commandment to overcome the “natural man” if it is not possible?

And what of the chimpanzee who likes the Yankees but not the Mets?
 
Ross09 said:
they have to defy gravity to leave earth…defying a law…that seems to be the idea behind what you posted with God sinning if he doesn’t follow his own laws, including physical laws of this universe.
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Oh come on.
 
mfb,
you said:
“Is a miracle of violation of the laws of physics or not, and would God violate the laws of physics?”
and then:
“So if God violates his own laws, is it a sin, and thus, he ceases to be God but becomes a sinner?”

…
 
mfbukowski said:
I don’t know-- what qualifies them in Catholicism? A degree I suppose-- “a man must be trained for the ministry”…

“Professional”= someone who makes money doing something

“Theologian”= someone who writes theology

“Professional Thologian”= someone who makes money writing about theology.

Lots of those in Mormonism
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That’s not a very good definition. I could make man writing medical journals, which doesn’t make me a doctor.
 
nebula said:
Rebecca,

I agree. And the Mormon leadership in general doesn’t know about theology proper, which is also interesting, but explains a lot. If the prophet/president isn’t an actual theologian (in the technical sense of the word) and can’t even be said to have theological or philosophical training, then is it any surprise that pinning down what Mormon theology is is like trying to pin the tail on a rabid donkey?
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Mormons are among the most theologically minded people of any in Christendom. The source of all Christian theology is the Bible. There is no such thing as Christian theology outside of the revelations of God. Now if you have such a distorted and twisted idea of Christian theology that in your mind you equate it with “philosophy,” then that is another matter. But the truth is that there is no such thing as theology outside of what God has revealed about Himself—which is in the Bible. That means that anybody who knows his Bible well enough to be able to pass independent judgment on what is true Christian doctrine based on what is contained in the Bible, is an accomplished theologian. (In the case of LDS, the Bible is augmented with Book of Mormon and other books of scripture we have received.) That is what it really means to be a Christian theologian. Anybody who is sufficiently well studied in the Bible that he can confidently extract true Christian doctrine from it, and teach and preach it with authority and confidence and by the power of the Holy Ghost, is an accomplished theologian. That is what Jesus and His Apostles were able to do, even though none of them had probably read a “theological” book. Judging by that criterion, then Latter-day Saints are among the most theologically minded people in the world, because nowhere else is the study of the scriptures stressed, and practically applied, to the extent that it is done in the LDS Church. Ask any faithful LDS how much scripture study they do, both formally (in Church) and informally at home, and you will soon get the idea. LDS (as a general rule) are a lot better theologians than Catholics are!

zerinus
 
mfbukowski said:
Yeah, me too. So morally, he can’t decide to be bad? I don’t want to phrase that like an omnipotence issue- No trap or anything I promise – just asking to see what you think.

The issue is could God violate ANY rule that would make him cease to be what we would call “God”? A moral law would do… striking someone dead for no reason?

I think we cannot come up with an example because the very question defies what we define as “God”.

Perhaps the whole notion of God breaking a law is contradictory, and if that is the case, maybe that is what Skousen is saying – that would mean he was no longer “God” ----???
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Well, if moral laws are necessary, that means they must be true in every conceivable world and therefore they are a logical necessity. That would mean that a good God couldn’t break them anymore than he could create a circle-square because such a sentence is nonsense from the start. Like I said though, natural laws aren’t like that which is why I disagree with PaulDupre.

Skousen is referring to something more than where you want to go, I guess you could call it ‘old school’ Mormon theological thought or something of the sort which reaffirms the doctrine that God is a progressed man who is literally bound by pre-existent laws of hte cosmos. An example of that thinking is taht God cannot completely destroy our existence, that our intelligences are innately eternal by natural and beyond the ability of any God to fully destroy. I don’t know if you go with that or go with a different, newer school of Mormon thought (or older I guess if you want to refer to “Kirtland Mormonism” or something).

Anyway, I’d prefer to err on the side of God’s sovereignty and freedom and believe that he won’t do bad things because he promises he’s not like that and I believe him.
 
mfbukowski said:
There you go with “nature” again. Don’t know what it means. A rational non insane guy kills a pregnant woman for fun. Is that human nature? Wouldn’t we say something like “that animal!” That’s inhuman!

Is it human nature to be someone like Mother Theresa, or is she extraordinary because she is “above” human nature?

And why do we have a commandment to overcome the “natural man” if it is not possible?

And what of the chimpanzee who likes the Yankees but not the Mets?
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You still don’t understand what we mean by “nature”. I think you are getting confused because in English there is more than one definition of the word.

Nature:
  1. the essential qualities or characteristics by which something is recognized; “it is the nature of fire to burn”. (this is the one we mean when we talk about the nature of God or of humans)
  2. the complex of emotional and intellectual attributes that determine a person’s characteristic actions and reactions; “it is his nature to help others” (this is what you seem to be using as the meaning of “nature”)
That’s why this discussion is getting nowhere. Go back and read my post #34 with definition 1 in mind, not definition 2. Then maybe you’ll see what we are talking about.

Paul
 
zerinus said:
Mormons are among the most theologically minded people of any in Christendom. The source of all Christian theology is the Bible. There is no such thing as Christian theology outside of the revelations of God. Now if you have such a distorted and twisted idea of Christian theology that in your mind you equate it with “philosophy,” then that is another matter. But the truth is that there is no such thing as theology outside of what God has revealed about Himself—which is in the Bible. That means that anybody who knows his Bible well enough to be able to pass independent judgment on what is true Christian doctrine based on what is contained in the Bible, is an accomplished theologian. (In the case of LDS, the Bible is augmented with Book of Mormon and other books of scripture we have received.) That is what it really means to be a Christian theologian. Anybody who is sufficiently well studied in the Bible that he can confidently extract true Christian doctrine from it, and teach and preach it with authority and confidence and by the power of the Holy Ghost, is an accomplished theologian. That is what Jesus and His Apostles were able to do, even though none of them had probably read a “theological” book. Judging by that criterion, then Latter-day Saints are among the most theologically minded people in the world, because nowhere else is the study of the scriptures stressed, and practically applied, to the extent that it is done in the LDS Church. Ask any faithful LDS how much scripture study they do, both formally (in Church) and informally at home, and you will soon get the idea. LDS (as a general rule) are a lot better theologians than Catholics are!

zerinus
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zerinus,

You could read through the bible day after day and never become a theologian in the sense I meant ;). Heck I knew a guy who read the bible cover to cover literally over a 100 times (not a Mormon), I suppose he’s the best theologian of any of us! I know Mormonism has its own definition of ‘theologian’ and argues that every member is supposed to be one, but I’m talking about someone professionally trained with plenty of philosophy and education about exegesis and so forth.

If you want to get into a debate about the merits or demerits about professional theology and theologians, then by all means, start a thread about that.
 
nebula said:
zerinus,

You could read through the bible day after day and never become a theologian in the sense I meant ;). Heck I knew a guy who read the bible cover to cover literally over a 100 times (not a Mormon), I suppose he’s the best theologian of any of us! I know Mormonism has its own definition of ‘theologian’ and argues that every member is supposed to be one, but I’m talking about someone professionally trained with plenty of philosophy and education about exegesis and so forth.

If you want to get into a debate about the merits or demerits about professional theology and theologians, then by all means, start a thread about that.
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That is not what makes a true theologian. Reading the Bible alone does not make you a theologian either. But reading it by the power of the Holy Ghost (which LDS have), and reading (or rather studying) it in the right spiritual environment and support created by the God’s only true Church (which the LDS Church is), that is what makes you a true theologian. There is no theologian in the world, that is worthy of the name, that would not acknowledge to you that the ultimate source of his theological knowledge is the Bible.

zerinus
 
PaulDupre said:
Miracles are not necessarily a violation of natural law, but rather a higher operation of those laws that we presently do not understand.

Paul
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Hello Paul, not trying to complicate things but a miracle by definition means there has been some violation of the natural order of things. Otherwise, how else could Science or Humans detect the miraculous. I do agree that we do not as yet see the whole picture (Higher operation) but if for example you should see an apple suspended in mid air you would know this is a violation of the Law of Gravity, and thus a miracle of God. God Bless.
 
same old tired rantings of the pseudo mormon zerinus. there are very good reasons why sola scriptura is inadequate for Christs church. sacred Tradition provides context through which we better understand the intent of the scripture writers. The bible contains much theology but not all of it is “direct revelation”, rather significant portions are the instructions of men whom God had taught and placed in positions of authority. even then, the guidance of the holy spirit is also necessary for the proper operation of the church militant.
 
zerinus said:
That is not what makes a true theologian. Reading the Bible alone does not make you a theologian either. But reading it by the power of the Holy Ghost (which LDS have), and reading (or rather studying) it in the right spiritual environment and support created by the God’s only true Church (which the LDS Church is), that is what makes you a true theologian. There is no theologian in the world, that is worthy of the name, that would not acknowledge to you that the ultimate source of his theological knowledge is the Bible.

zerinus
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Right. S o you’ve pulled a definition out of… thin air… and now I’m supposed to accept it as authoritative because… 🙂 especially considering that so many of us deny that Mormons are especially lead by the Spirit and innumerable other problems. When you want to have a real discussion of the topic, by all means zerinus, create a thread to debate the nature and use of theology.
 
Ross09 said:
mfb,
you said:
“Is a miracle of violation of the laws of physics or not, and would God violate the laws of physics?”
and then:
“So if God violates his own laws, is it a sin, and thus, he ceases to be God but becomes a sinner?”

…
Click to expand...
And? I hope I did not say it quite that way, but your point is?
 
RebeccaJ said:
That’s not a very good definition. I could make man writing medical journals, which doesn’t make me a doctor.
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You asked- I didn’t. I don’t know why the definition is important, and you apparantly do so why don’t you define it for us? If anyone cares by now… but don’t include me in that grooup (of possible “carers”)
 
zerinus said:
Mormons are among the most theologically minded people of any in Christendom. The source of all Christian theology is the Bible. There is no such thing as Christian theology outside of the revelations of God. Now if you have such a distorted and twisted idea of Christian theology that in your mind you equate it with “philosophy,” then that is another matter. But the truth is that there is no such thing as theology outside of what God has revealed about Himself—which is in the Bible. That means that anybody who knows his Bible well enough to be able to pass independent judgment on what is true Christian doctrine based on what is contained in the Bible, is an accomplished theologian. (In the case of LDS, the Bible is augmented with Book of Mormon and other books of scripture we have received.) That is what it really means to be a Christian theologian. Anybody who is sufficiently well studied in the Bible that he can confidently extract true Christian doctrine from it, and teach and preach it with authority and confidence and by the power of the Holy Ghost, is an accomplished theologian. That is what Jesus and His Apostles were able to do, even though none of them had probably read a “theological” book. Judging by that criterion, then Latter-day Saints are among the most theologically minded people in the world, because nowhere else is the study of the scriptures stressed, and practically applied, to the extent that it is done in the LDS Church. Ask any faithful LDS how much scripture study they do, both formally (in Church) and informally at home, and you will soon get the idea. LDS (as a general rule) are a lot better theologians than Catholics are!

zerinus
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👍
 
mfbukowski said:
You asked- I didn’t. I don’t know why the definition is important, and you apparantly do so why don’t you define it for us? If anyone cares by now… but don’t include me in that grooup (of possible “carers”)
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Seems you are the one that objects to the fact that there are no Mormon theologians.
 
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