Mormon missionaries at it again!

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Mormon church appeals Main Street free-speech ruling

SALT LAKE CITY — The Mormon church filed an appeal yesterday seeking to overturn the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeal’s ruling that the sidewalks of the church-owned Main Street plaza must remain open to free speech

On Oct. 9, the 10th Circuit ruled that Main Street plaza sidewalks are traditional public spaces. The court said restricting free speech on the Main Street sidewalks, even though owned by the church, was unconstitutional.
firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=3282
We need to remember that main street is not far from temple square. Free speech can mean many things to many people, including opening a sex shop near the temple. When I was living in Utah, porn was well regulated but today we are living in a different world.

I do believe that even catholics would like to limit free speech in some cases. The lds and the catholics do agree on pornography and other like matters.
 
We need to remember that main street is not far from temple square. Free speech can mean many things to many people, including opening a sex shop near the temple. When I was living in Utah, porn was well regulated but today we are living in a different world.

I do believe that even catholics would like to limit free speech in some cases. The lds and the catholics do agree on pornography and other like matters.
My home is a Temple it is dedicated to The Catholic Church
 
I am not sure it newness. I think it more that they have a problem with cults that other than the names they use have little to no bases in Scripture.
The orthodox church does not want to lose their flock and so, they would like to limit religious freedom. The catholic church may fare no better in such slavic countries. The Russian church does not like all the new religions that have come to Russia. This would also include the penecostals and born againers. But the state needs to have freedom of religion or the USA and the west would be highly critical, especially when Russia became a state once again in 1991 along with Bulgaria. Freedom of relgion needed to be implemented, to the dismay of the orthodox church.
 
Well, if mormons weren’t disingenuous and lying then I wouldn’t be typing it out. You don’t disclose all of your beliefs to potential converts. Your missionaries attend other services when invited as part of their effort to convert the person. Pretending otherwise only makes you look DISINGENUOUS.

I does not appear you read my comment. They apparently had made a positive connection to the person who invited them. Therefore it is possible that they had already taught some lessons making their intentions clear.
Maybe you would prefer if I use the term “lying for the Lord”?
That certainly would be a more reasonable coarse of action. The Bulgarian priest was not.
The laws in Bulgaria are not the laws in the US. I thought mormons believed in obeying secular laws. Does that only mean US laws? Or laws that are to your favor?
No one broke any laws at all

Paul
 
MINSK, Belarus — Authorities expelled two U.S. citizens for what they said was “illegal missionary activity,” the Belorussian security agency said Monday.

The KGB said the two were expelled because they were conducting “illegal missionary activity” and because the church was not registered in the Mogiliyev region.
mission.net/russia/moscow/news.php?nID=2283

2 LDS Volunteers Expelled from Belarus
 
I think this is an oversimplification of the issue to your advantage, people are welcome what wasn’t welcome were those that behave inappropriately, some rules where set up to create a pleasant atmosphere for all. If you don’t think that the appeals the church as undertaken has nothing to do with you and yours, guess again. It could have wide implications as to what people can get away with in regard to behaviour in or near church owed property not just LDS. This may be the reason the appeal court refused to hear it – a real hot potato. But from your attitude that’s ok because it hasn’t affected you yet – give it time.

I can’t think of another church that tried to control behavior ( AND particularly religious speech) in public areas surrounding their church.
Paul G;3783741:
Also in Rome when the missionaries want to do a “Mostra stradale” which means “to show something on the street”, they need to have the permit from the police, which takes two or three days to obtain. When you obtain the permit, you have some strict rules to obey. Basically, the missionaries can set up a table, can have posters, can talk to the people, but only if they are willing to do so, don’t disturb the peace, don’t offend anyone, etc. The violation of these rules would bring about imprisonment and denial of further permits to mission.
Well Rome (Italy or Vatican) has it’s own laws and I’m more concerned with cities in this country enforcing the beliefs of any given religion on public property than I am with the bureaucratic rules of a city in another country. Personally I’m all for proselytizers registering with the city/village/township in order to go house to house and annoy me but I guess this is not in keeping with our constitution.

That certainly would be a more reasonable coarse of action. The Bulgarian priest was not.

I’ve seen nothing to convince me that the Bulgarian priest "spin"is any less believable than the LDS church “spin”. They are both declaring themselves to be the injured party and like others here have said, I have had unpleasant encounters with LDS missionaries and not had the same with any Orthodox I have a bit of trouble buying into the “LDS missionaries wouldn’t do something like this” defense.
 
I does not appear you read my comment.
I read your comment. What you are not understanding is that a missionary is a missionary period. And you are pretending that while they were accepting an invitation and standing there at Mass, they were something other than a missionary.
That’s just as pretentious
It is calling a duck a duck.

I think you are quite imaginative.

In what way? That missionaries aren’t engaged in missionary work, in everything they do and say? Tell me, what kind of missionary would that missionary be if they weren’t engaged in their mission work at all times?
I think this is an oversimplification of the issue to your advantage, people are welcome what wasn’t welcome were those that behave inappropriately, some rules where set up to create a pleasant atmosphere for all.
ummm, no, the church engaged in political activities in order to create an atmosphere that is free from criticism and competition.

Let’s review. The city made a deal with the LDS church, to sell a block of Main street. In that deal, it was clearly written that their was a public easement. A public easement is not some wild frontier. Normal modes of conduct are expected with the established laws.

This public easement was the very first condition of the city council. The city council recommended the sale as long as their were no more restrictions than there would be at a public park. These were public meetings.

This was followed by a CLOSED meeting between the LDS church and the Salt Lake attorney, where the LDS church stated it must control all activities. The Salt Lake attorney gave a draft of the easement to the city council, stating that public access was consistent with what the planning commission had approved.

In a public hearing, no one from the city attorney’s office pointed out that they had removed the planning commissions requirement for public access. A citizen member of the planning commission pointed out that the petition being put forth is not the same as the petition that was approved by the planning commission.

The Mayor then signed a special warranty deed, stating the city retrained rights to the public easement with special extensive conditions for conduct. With a clause for severing the deed if any of it is found to be unconstitutional.

The ACLU filed a lawsuit against the city, saying the restrictions are unconstitutional. The LDS Church ADDED THEMSELVES as a defendant in the case.

The district Federal court ruled in favor of the city and church. The ACLU appealed to the circuit court, this court ruled the restrictions are unconstitutional (First Amendment rights).

The new Mayor then vowed that the easement would not be transferred to the LDS church. Siting that the easement is not as important as the guarantee of public access. Deseret News poll showed that mormons believe the LDS church should be given the easement, and a majority of non-LDS believe the city should keep the public easement. The issue became a cultural and religious divide.

The LDS church dispensed an expensive, glossy, full color folder with inserts, with a letter from Pres. Hinckley regarding the “The New Church Plaza” to thousands of businesses and citizens (I received one).

The Mayor proposed the easement be narrowed to the width of a sidewalk, removed from temple activity, and laws established that impose time, place and manner restrictions.

Due to the cultural and religious divide, an alliance is formed by citizens, which proposes to the Mayor that the LDS church exchange for an easement on the west side of the city, and fund the building of a community center on the west side.

Numerous public meetings are held, eventually a unanimous city council signs the easement.

The US Supreme court refuses to hear the LDS church appeal.

The ACLU sued again, calling for a examination of the entire process and whether or not the LDS church received special treatment. And, if the agreement violates free speech.

The court granted the city and LDS church request to dismiss the case, based on the fact that the city had the right to the transaction. The court declared the Main St Plaza as no longer a public forum.

I agree, it has wide implications. It obviously validated the LDS church’s stance that they can do whatever they like in the state of Utah and abroad.

continued…
 
Perhaps you don’t mind what happens downtown when we have special event, and that everyone is entitled to do and say what ever they wish, whether is private land or not. It seems though that these same civil liberty people, regarding those who are protesting free standing abortion clinics demand that they not be allowed within 100 yards of the building or be thrown in jail for picketing in front of the building on “public property”
It is the same law! People have a right to speak out, even when we don’t like what they are saying. What the LDS church did is ensure that free speech is removed from what was formerly a public street in the heart of downtown SLC.

There are laws that people have to abide by on public easements, permits for picketing, staying on public property…in effect the time, place and manner laws that the Mayor proposed for Main St. Which, the LDS church opposed.
Basically, the missionaries can set up a table, can have posters, can talk to the people, but only if they are willing to do so, don’t disturb the peace, don’t offend anyone, etc. The violation of these rules would bring about imprisonment and denial of further permits to mission.
I see nothing wrong with this and it only supports my point. Your missionaries have public access, can exercise free speech, your church removed it.
But hey, it’s ok for this kind of behaviour in Salt Lake City their just crazy mormons right.
What sort of crazy behavior? That of the LDS church?
That certainly would be a more reasonable coarse of action. The Bulgarian priest was not.
He is acting within the laws of his country. Apparently you are opposed to this when it does not involve a benefit to your church.
No one broke any laws at all
That remains to be seen.
 
The orthodox church does not want to lose their flock and so, they would like to limit religious freedom. The catholic church may fare no better in such slavic countries. The Russian church does not like all the new religions that have come to Russia. This would also include the penecostals and born againers. But the state needs to have freedom of religion or the USA and the west would be highly critical, especially when Russia became a state once again in 1991 along with Bulgaria. Freedom of relgion needed to be implemented, to the dismay of the orthodox church.
from a A
The Catholic Church has been dealing with restrictions in countries such as Russia since the Great schism of 1054 I may be off by a few years give or take. This is not a freedom of religion issue this is an issue of people disturbing the services that were being held.

As I said looking at it from and American point of view the Priest may have over reacted. But I don’t know since I was not there. Agian I have to wonder and ask if they were the guest of another parishioner why were they standing in the back instead of sitting with her?🤷
 
As I said looking at it from and American point of view the Priest may have over reacted. But I don’t know since I was not there. Agian I have to wonder and ask if they were the guest of another parishioner why were they standing in the back instead of sitting with her?🤷
Assuming they sit in the Bulgarian Orthodox Church. Do they?
 
You may wish to read the story about this incident on MormonTimes.com:

mormontimes.com/WC_aroundChurch.php?id=1284

MormonTimes.com is a sister Web site to the Deseret News newspaper Web site.
As I suspected, this seems to be an effort by the Orthodox priest to have Mormon missionaries removed from the country completely. I have seen this tactic before. I have heard of the same type of thing happening in Russia where the missionaries are attacked mainly for being there. It is an attempt to stifle freedom of religion. As much as I may disagree with Mormonism, I think they have the right to teach their story and give people the right to accept or reject it. The Orthodox priest is simply trying to stir up trouble.
 
As I suspected, this seems to be an effort by the Orthodox priest to have Mormon missionaries removed from the country completely. I have seen this tactic before. I have heard of the same type of thing happening in Russia where the missionaries are attacked mainly for being there. It is an attempt to stifle freedom of religion. As much as I may disagree with Mormonism, I think they have the right to teach their story and give people the right to accept or reject it. The Orthodox priest is simply trying to stir up trouble.
Or it could be that since the site only gives comments from the LDS side that it is not an accurate report.
 
I can’t think of another church that tried to control behavior ( AND particularly religious speech) in public areas surrounding their church.

Well Rome (Italy or Vatican) has it’s own laws and I’m more concerned with cities in this country enforcing the beliefs of any given religion on public property than I am with the bureaucratic rules of a city in another country. Personally I’m all for proselytizers registering with the city/village/township in order to go house to house and annoy me but I guess this is not in keeping with our constitution.

That certainly would be a more reasonable coarse of action. The Bulgarian priest was not.

I’ve seen nothing to convince me that the Bulgarian priest "spin"is any less believable than the LDS church “spin”. They are both declaring themselves to be the injured party and like others here have said, I have had unpleasant encounters with LDS missionaries and not had the same with any Orthodox I have a bit of trouble buying into the “LDS missionaries wouldn’t do something like this” defense.
I here stories from some here that they have encountered aggressive missionary. I don’t discard this information out of hand; though have not experienced any myself in the 28 years before I joined the Church or all the years since. The trouble is that there will always be bad actors in any group.

Regarding this current issue at hand, one has to read all reports and then decide what the more likely story is – one way or the other. The Church takes these incidents very seriously, and any wrong doing by the missionary is met with a quick trip home.

Paul
 
Both sides have been presented, so now you can decide what you want to believe.

Paul.
At first I was of the mind that to Priest may have been over reacting. But since the stories from the Mormon side do not even bother to give quotes from those involved. And they argumentative and aggressiveness of those on this site I am now leaning more and more to believe things happened just as the Priest said.
 
At first I was of the mind that to Priest may have been over reacting. But since the stories from the Mormon side do not even bother to give quotes from those involved. And they argumentative and aggressiveness of those on this site I am now leaning more and more to believe things happened just as the Priest said.
We all make up our mind based on a process. The problem as I see it is there is no follow up, we have only the initial reports, and no follow up, no interview with the priest, not interviews with parishioners, just a sensational accusation. In the post above there are comments that describe the incident in detail as experienced by the missionaries. I think perhaps there should be more information from Orthodox position before a real decision can be made.

Paul
 
We all make up our mind based on a process. The problem as I see it is there is no follow up, we have only the initial reports, and no follow up, no interview with the priest, not interviews with parishioners, just a sensational accusation. In the post above there are comments that describe the incident in detail as experienced by the missionaries. I think perhaps there should be more information from Orthodox position before a real decision can be made.

Paul
I don’t think people care enough about this “event” to get more information. At any rate, the story in the SL Trib says the Catholic community wanted nothing to be done to the missionaries or the LDS church.

The Priest may not have had an appropriate response, but it is understandable considering the overt and aggressive rrecruiting of Mormons, and our view that they are leading people into a man-made startup religion that has no basis in any truth.

As for how missionaries act, some Mormons treat other Mormons much differently than they do non-Mormons. And, there is that pecking order. A Mormon missionary absolutely is taught and believes that they are above the people they are teaching. Especially when talking to a woman. When I talk to Mormon missionaries, this is very palpable. And growing up Mormon, this was the social norm. When Mormon men talk to other Mormon men, it is different. They talk as equals, or differ to one another based on their calling.

This is what I see in some of the Mormon men, here, as well.
 
. A Mormon missionary absolutely is taught and believes that they are above the people they are teaching. Especially when talking to a woman. When I talk to Mormon missionaries, this is very palpable. And growing up Mormon, this was the social norm. When Mormon men talk to other Mormon men, it is different. They talk as equals, or differ to one another based on their calling.

This is what I see in some of the Mormon men, here, as well.
Wrong, wrong and wrong. I have seen no such thing. Mormons live and work in the greater community. If they behaved the way you say they behave, they would be outcasts. And lest we forget, not all missionaries are men. Many are young women who may go on a mission when they are 21. They are usually more mature than the young men. I hear no such complaints from female missionaries about the male missionaries.
 
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