Mormon missionaries tell me Native Americans are from Israel

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lukewarm said:
This entire topic seems like a complete setup to me, like it was trying to coerce the obvious attacks on the Mormon Church. Don’t play coy if you want to make a topic on the DNA BofM issue just go ahead and do it.

It just seems like a bad sales video or after school special where someone is asking such simple questions designed to elicit a general canned response.

You see it over on CARM “I have a Catholic friend at work, he says “it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff”. What is up with that? I thought Jesus said that HE was the way the Truth and the Life?” (queue the canned answers)…
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Don’t kill the messenger…please. Maybe it is time for you to recognise that the LDS take on the peoples of the earth are pretty outrageous in the opinion of many if not most. The above title is from your church and these kids are just parrotting what they been told is the truth, if it is embarrassing to you I feel your pain but I can’t understand why you think it is a setup. DNA has proven (to my satisfaction) that LDS is wrong about American Indians but I don’t think there is any harm in believing it…especially if you want to remain LDS. :o
 
pismopal said:
Don’t kill the messenger…please. Maybe it is time for you to recognise that the LDS take on the peoples of the earth are pretty outrageous in the opinion of many if not most. The above title is from your church and these kids are just parrotting what they been told is the truth, if it is embarrassing to you I feel your pain but I can’t understand why you think it is a setup. DNA has proven (to my satisfaction) that LDS is wrong about American Indians but I don’t think there is any harm in believing it…especially if you want to remain LDS. :o
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I’m Catholic not LDS first off, and I can smell an obvious setup… It reads like a bad sales video it just made me chuckle…
 
lukewarm said:
I’m Catholic not LDS first off, and I can smell an obvious setup… It reads like a bad sales video it just made me chuckle…
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Pardon me for my assumptions and I could make a claim that I was set up. Can you make a case for this as being a set up. It might be interesting?
 
I agree with Lukewarm…this post was a complete set-up:rolleyes: .

The poster feigns lack of knowledge, yet displays WAY too much accuracy in relaying what he “learned” from these missionaries or learned what he read in his “chloroform in print”.

I’m just wondering why.:confused:
 
Catholic20064 said:
Thank you for this information on DNA! By the way the Mormons are coming back on Wednesday night. They said that when the Spaniards came to America they were worshiped by the Native Americans because they had a white skin like Jesus. That’s why it was so easy for the Spaniards to fool the natives into letting them take over. The Native Americans thought the leader of the Spaniards was Jesus returning to them again.
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Gunpowder and cannons aided by small pox had more to do with it than any kind of skin color.
 
lukewarm said:
This entire topic seems like a complete setup to me, like it was trying to coerce the obvious attacks on the Mormon Church.
…
You see it over on CARM “I have a Catholic friend at work, he says “it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff”. What is up with that? I thought Jesus said that HE was the way the Truth and the Life?” (queue the canned answers)…
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No, the two examples aren’t the same at all. Your CARM example shows someone repeating a falsehood about Catholicism; however, Mormons really do teach that Native Americans are the lost tribe of Israel, and other things that have been conclusively shown to be untrue.
 
Jerusha said:
Historically, every time Native Americans show how p----- off they are about the BOM, they end up getting revenged upon. Those Natives who have converted to LDS are generally people who have been generally well deculturated, or know nothing about pre-Columbian Native history specific to the Northeastern part of this continent. Maybe they have been shamed so much that they actually believe that their DNA will be physically changed by becoming LDS.

Given the attitude of white privilege in this country, and the hold that LDS and other racists have on the media, it is pretty well a hopeless battle at this point. 😦 It is really scary.
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Actually if you read the book of mormon, it is the white people that are getting cursed—the modern day gentiles. The indians come out rather well in the book of mormon. This was quite revolutionary since at that time (1820), the Indians were getting wiped out by protestants and catholics. 👍

Do you ever watch the early John Wayne westerns? He always has a drunken Irishman in the army in the west, killing indians.
 
lukewarm said:
This entire topic seems like a complete setup to me, like it was trying to coerce the obvious attacks on the Mormon Church. Don’t play coy if you want to make a topic on the DNA BofM issue just go ahead and do it.

It just seems like a bad sales video or after school special where someone is asking such simple questions designed to elicit a general canned response.

You see it over on CARM “I have a Catholic friend at work, he says “it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff”. What is up with that? I thought Jesus said that HE was the way the Truth and the Life?” (queue the canned answers)…
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I thought so too. But heck, what to do? I thought that I would go along for the ride to keep the others honest. 🙂
 
ibkc said:
No, the two examples aren’t the same at all. Your CARM example shows someone repeating a falsehood about Catholicism; however, Mormons really do teach that Native Americans are the lost tribe of Israel, and other things that have been conclusively shown to be untrue.
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Actually what I listed was directly stated by Pope Boniface VII, it isn’t a “falsehood” about the Catholic Church at all, however it is frequently used to lob grenades at Catholics by quoting it out of context.

“That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins…Furthermore we declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff.”

POPE BONIFACE VIII Unam Sanctam (November 18, 1302 AD)"

See the example I used was right on…
 
lukewarm said:
Actually what I listed was directly stated by Pope Boniface VII, it isn’t a “falsehood” about the Catholic Church at all, however it is frequently used to lob grenades at Catholics by quoting it out of context.

"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins…Furthermore we declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff."

POPE BONIFACE VIII Unam Sanctam (November 18, 1302 AD)"

See the example I used was right on…
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You’ve misquoted the Bull. When translated into English, the text reads:

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. "

Being subject to something and submitting yourself to something are two different things entirely. In being part of the Catholic Church, one is subject to the Roman Pontiff by that very fact. The statement of Pope Boniface is a logical extension of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
 
Dauphin said:
You’ve misquoted the Bull. When translated into English, the text reads:

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff. "

Being subject to something and submitting yourself to something are two different things entirely. In being part of the Catholic Church, one is subject to the Roman Pontiff by that very fact. The statement of Pope Boniface is a logical extension of extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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The point of my post wasn’t the exact rendering of the bull… It wasn’t meant to derail simply to point out how this topic sounds like a bad sales video, I don’t care about the Papal Bull at all, it was one simple example out of 100 I could’ve used.
 
How coincidental that we covered this very thing in religion this morning with my children. (!!)

Boniface VIII lacked the diplomacy required to deal with the difficult and changing political landscape. For years, the Church had enjoyed a pretty balanced influence on temporal authority, one facet of which was the legal foundation of civil society.

To make a long story short, the grandson of St. Louis IX of France, one of its greatest kings and a great friend of the Church, was Philip.

Philip inherited none of his grandad’s saintly characteristics. He undertook a series of wars, particularly against England. To bone up his funds, he turned to Church lands to supplement his treasury. The Church had heretofore been largely exempt, as it is today, from taxation.

In 1296, to chastise Philip, Boniface wrote Clericis laicos, in which he asserted that kings did not have the right to tax clergy of their own voilition. Philip responded by cutting off all French shipments of gold, liver, and jewels to Italy. Philip also aressted the papal legate on trumped up charges. The pope demanded his release on pain of mortal sin. That is what this letter, Unum Sanctam is all about. A perfectly legitimate thing to do.

Philip tried to call his own council, the Estates General, to condemn and depose the pope. He kidnapped the pope and held him for three days. Shortly after, the pope died from the poor treatment he received at his hands. Soon after, the papacy was forced to move to France in an attempt to weaken it.

So, you see, nothing is as simple as it looks at a distance. I think you owe the Church a little bit of slack.**
 
Ceil-1 said:
So, you see, nothing is as simple as it looks at a distance. I think you owe the Church a little bit of slack.
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LOL good grief can anyone see that I brought up this example as something OTHERS do unfairly to disparage the Church? Seriously go read my posts people. Forget it, people here are simply incapable of reading anything in context, it’s sad…
 
Subrosa said:
Do you believe that Jesus came to America? I hope not! 😃

Sub
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Not His physical self. However, if you realize that Catholicism existed at the settlements on Greenland, and if you define Greenland as being part of North America, and acknowlege that there were probably at least a few Masses said in the Newfoundland/Labrador area, His Real Presence was there. 😛
 
why_me said:
Actually if you read the book of mormon, it is the white people that are getting cursed—the modern day gentiles. The indians come out rather well in the book of mormon.

Your take on the story agrees with mine. However, I believe that the story is derived from the stories of Tecumseh and other Indian teachers. You believe it was an ancient record, written on golden plates…la de dah…

This was quite revolutionary since at that time (1820), the Indians were getting wiped out by protestants and catholics. 👍

I much prefer Elias Boudinot’s unsophisticated ramblings on the Jewish theory. Certainly written as an effort to prove Indians descendants of Adam and Eve, and therefore human, within the 6000 year time frame that people believed in then.

Actually, moving forward in time, it is my understanding that most of the genocide committed by white Americans was done by Baptists and Mormons.

.
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Catholic20064 said:
I just had a visit from the Mormon missionaries. They have a book called the Book of Mormon and tell me that Jesus visited the Americas. They said the Native Americans come from Israel. I always was told in school they came from Asia.
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If you believe that you will believe anything:)
 
There is no evidence, DNA, archeological, historic or otherwise to support the Mormon belief that Native Americans are descendants of Judaic colonists.
The Book of Mormon is the only document that makes mention of this supposed ancestry and as the Elders of the LDS church will not allow any but members of the high council of Apostles view the handful of surviving gold plates, there is no way to refute their claim from a scientific study of the plates themselves. Mormons will continue to believe, based on the gold plates from which their scripture was translated, in defiance of all other evidence presented.

Matthew
 
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