Mormon missionaries tell me Native Americans are from Israel

[Catholic20064]

I have wonderful feelings when I attend mass. I’ve always thought that was God. The missionaries asked me to attend the local Mormon church on Sunday. Should I go?

How do I know what the Holy Ghost is saying to me? The Mormon missionaries said I might feel a burning in my heart or some other feeling to assure me the Book of Mormon is true and the Mormon Church is true. I don’t remember anyone ever asking me to pray about the Catholic Church and whether or not it is true.

 

[Jerusha]

I don’t remember anyone ever asking me to pray about the Catholic Church and whether or not it is true.

You never needed to, did you? That is enough evidence in my mind. Catholicism is logical and rational, as well as spiritually fulfilling.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I have wonderful feelings when I attend mass. I’ve always thought that was God. The missionaries asked me to attend the local Mormon church on Sunday. Should I go?

How do I know what the Holy Ghost is saying to me? The Mormon missionaries said I might feel a burning in my heart or some other feeling to assure me the Book of Mormon is true and the Mormon Church is true. I don’t remember anyone ever asking me to pray about the Catholic Church and whether or not it is true.

The Catholic Church tells you to put your faith in Christ. Prayers are focused on getting closer to God, not to the Church. To put it simply, Christ comes first, and we know Christ through the Holy Spirit.

The mormons are asking you to put your faith in their church first. Their church is founded on one man, Joseph Smith, and on a book that he published. If they can convince you that these two things are “true”, then that is what your faith will be based on. If there comes a time where your faith in these two things fails, the whole house of cards comes down and you will be left doubting Christ Himself.

In the Catholic Church, Christ is the foundation of truth. Not the other way around.

 

[hosemonkey]

I have wonderful feelings when I attend mass. I’ve always thought that was God. The missionaries asked me to attend the local Mormon church on Sunday. Should I go?

How do I know what the Holy Ghost is saying to me? The Mormon missionaries said I might feel a burning in my heart or some other feeling to assure me the Book of Mormon is true and the Mormon Church is true. I don’t remember anyone ever asking me to pray about the Catholic Church and whether or not it is true.

Why in the world are you even talking to mormon missionaries???
The Catholic Church is the True Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself. It contains the complete fullness of Truth. The mormon organization is a fraud founded by a liar and con-man and is totally false. That you might “feel good” about the BOM has got absolutely nothing to do with wether it is true or not. Study your Catholic faith. That is where the truth is at.

 

[talter]

I have wonderful feelings when I attend mass. I’ve always thought that was God. The missionaries asked me to attend the local Mormon church on Sunday. Should I go?

How do I know what the Holy Ghost is saying to me? The Mormon missionaries said I might feel a burning in my heart or some other feeling to assure me the Book of Mormon is true and the Mormon Church is true. I don’t remember anyone ever asking me to pray about the Catholic Church and whether or not it is true.

That’s because there is no need to. It’s easily verifiable through history. The LDS would have you believe that sometime, they can’t tell you when, the WHOLE church fell away from Christ’s teachings. As for praying to know if something is right I’d really like to know where in the bible it says that. LDS always point to James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” However wisdom is not knowledge. Wisdom is the proper application of knowledge in a given situation. So if you don’t know that the BoM is true how is praying for it going to tell you that, when God promises wisdom in the quoted verse? Arguing semantics? Maybe, but it’s an important distinction. Also how are we to know that the testimony we feel is of God? Are we not to test all things? If we are testified to that something is true and we see that it is false with our own eyes how do we proceed? I pray faithfully and without wavering and get a testimony that rocks my world, it is so powerful that I can’t help but believe, that I will get the new position at work only to be fired before it happens what then? Or I pray faithfully and without wavering and get a testimony that rocks my world, it is so powerful that I can’t help but believe that the earth is flat what then? Reason and faith can not contradict each other. Therefore one of them must be wrong. Either I wasn’t fired or the testimony was wrong. Either the world is flat or the testimony was wrong. When you evaluate the LDS upon the principals it was founded on it fails to meet reason. So either the verifiable evidence is correct that shows the church did not fall in to whole and complete apostasy or the testimony is correct. Either the verifiable evidence is correct that the Native Americans did not wield steel weapons (steel is NOT iron) or the testimony is correct. Either the verifiable evidence is correct that says there has never been a war that killed over 1 million people anywhere on the North American continent or the testimony is correct. Either the verifiable evidence is correct that says silk manufacturing was not found outside of China until 200BC or the testimony is correct. Either the verifiable evidence is correct that says the BoM is not a record of history or the testimony is correct. It’s an either or statement in all cases. Either the evidence is correct or the testimony is. I’m going to trust the evidence and the faith that agrees with the evidence.

 

[hosemonkey]

That’s because there is no need to. It’s easily verifiable through history. The LDS would have you believe that sometime, they can’t tell you when, the WHOLE church fell away from Christ’s teachings. As for praying to know if something is right I’d really like to know where in the bible it says that. LDS always point to James 1:5 “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” However wisdom is not knowledge. Wisdom is the proper application of knowledge in a given situation. So if you don’t know that the BoM is true how is praying for it going to tell you that, when God promises wisdom in the quoted verse? Arguing semantics? Maybe, but it’s an important distinction. Also how are we to know that the testimony we feel is of God? Are we not to test all things? If we are testified to that something is true and we see that it is false with our own eyes how do we proceed? I pray faithfully and without wavering and get a testimony that rocks my world, it is so powerful that I can’t help but believe, that I will get the new position at work only to be fired before it happens what then? Or I pray faithfully and without wavering and get a testimony that rocks my world, it is so powerful that I can’t help but believe that the earth is flat what then? Reason and faith can not contradict each other. Therefore one of them must be wrong. Either I wasn’t fired or the testimony was wrong. Either the world is flat or the testimony was wrong. When you evaluate the LDS upon the principals it was founded on it fails to meet reason. So either the verifiable evidence is correct that shows the church did not fall in to whole and complete apostasy or the testimony is correct. Either the verifiable evidence is correct that the Native Americans did not wield steel weapons (steel is NOT iron) or the testimony is correct. Either the verifiable evidence is correct that says there has never been a war that killed over 1 million people anywhere on the North American continent or the testimony is correct. Either the verifiable evidence is correct that says silk manufacturing was not found outside of China until 200BC or the testimony is correct. Either the verifiable evidence is correct that says the BoM is not a record of history or the testimony is correct. It’s an either or statement in all cases. Either the evidence is correct or the testimony is. I’m going to trust the evidence and the faith that agrees with the evidence.

Good post. Unfortunately, it is completely logical therefore mormons will not believe it. Logic escapes them. What is worse, they will lie to someone like Catholic20064 who is obviously not firmly grounded in the Faith.

 

[Catholic20064]

Good post. Unfortunately, it is completely logical therefore mormons will not believe it. Logic escapes them. What is worse, they will lie to someone like Catholic20064 who is obviously not firmly grounded in the Faith.

I don’t think they would purposely lie to me. They seem like nice young men. They are clean cut and really polite. I don’t believe much of what they are saying, but it is interesting talking to them.

 

[talter]

Good post. Unfortunately, it is completely logical therefore mormons will not believe it. Logic escapes them. What is worse, they will lie to someone like Catholic20064 who is obviously not firmly grounded in the Faith.

Thanks. Unfortunately I have to agree with you. So much of what Mormonism is, is tied to emotion. I remember being infatuated (I thought I was in love) with a girl in college. Everyone could see that she wasn’t right for me. But my heart and my prayers told me that she was perfect for me. When she lied to me I knew it was a lie but my heart and prayers told me everything would be fine. Let me tell you my prayers had never been more sincere up to that point in my life, I thought I was going to marry her. Well let’s just say I’m wiser now.

 

[hosemonkey]

I don’t think they would purposely lie to me. They seem like nice young men. They are clean cut and really polite. I don’t believe much of what they are saying, but it is interesting talking to them.

Nobody who is trying to sell you snake oil is going to be sloppy or rude. They are carefully trained in canned spiel that is designed to win your confidence. They probably believe what they are telling you because they are just kids and do not know any better. If you interrupt their carefully learned presentation with sharp and searching questions, they are at a loss and will usually retreat in confusion. Their objective is to commit you to baptism into mormonism in six lessons. They do not have the answers to real inquiry. They are very much like the annoying telemarketers that interrupt your supper with a sales pitch read from a script. Do not fall for it.

 

[artist3189]

I have wonderful feelings when I attend mass. I’ve always thought that was God. The missionaries asked me to attend the local Mormon church on Sunday. Should I go?

How do I know what the Holy Ghost is saying to me? The Mormon missionaries said I might feel a burning in my heart or some other feeling to assure me the Book of Mormon is true and the Mormon Church is true. I don’t remember anyone ever asking me to pray about the Catholic Church and whether or not it is true.

YOUR ‘FEELINGS’ ASSOCIATED WITH THIS IS NOT PROOF OF ITS TRUTH. HUMANS ARE OFTEN MISLEAD BY FEELINGS. YOU CAN NOT AND MUST NOT USE THAT AS A GUIDE TO THE TRUTH. STUDY THE SOURCE OF THOSE FEELINGS FIRST. YOU WILL FIND MORMONISM AS FALSE AS THE ‘FEELING’ THEY TRY TO PASS OFF AS CONFIRMATION.

 

[majick275]

I don’t think they would purposely lie to me. They seem like nice young men. They are clean cut and really polite. I don’t believe much of what they are saying, but it is interesting talking to them.

nor do i. the most effective deceptions are those perpetuated by the deceived. they think it’s true, they are well trained in emotional manipulation but it was presented to them as a holy work. of course they are nice young men. they just don’t have the truth and aren’t interested in finding it. they are under heavy pressure to baptize people into their church.

 

[StevenErickson]

nor do i. the most effective deceptions are those perpetuated by the deceived. they think it’s true, they are well trained in emotional manipulation but it was presented to them as a holy work. of course they are nice young men. they just don’t have the truth and aren’t interested in finding it. they are under heavy pressure to baptize people into their church.

Asking someone to independently pray to God is emotional manipulation? Majick, in another post you stated that you have felt the power of God:

On the contrary, I have felt the Power and comforting presence of God. I do believe he can communicate with you in a personal and moving way. I have experienced this in moments of fervent prayer before Mass. I experienced this when I prayed the Lord’s prayer for the first time.

Obviously, you have been able to discern the difference between personal communication from God and your own feelings. God certainly has the ability to communicate to us and have us understand His communication as you have so stated. I can’t think of any better way to find truth then to ask someone to go to the source – God – and ask Him.

 

[PaulDupre]

nor do i. the most effective deceptions are those perpetuated by the deceived. they think it’s true, they are well trained in emotional manipulation but it was presented to them as a holy work. of course they are nice young men. they just don’t have the truth and aren’t interested in finding it. they are under heavy pressure to baptize people into their church.

And they are practiced in the bait-and switch tactic using the Book of Mormon. Many people who have had little religious training read the parts of the BoM that talk about Jesus as the savior and the parts that quote from the bible, and they are emotionally touched. They could have read a similar message in a Billy Graham book or a Jack Van Impe tract (without all the pointless warfare). Then the missionaries tell them, not that their conscience has been pricked and is telling them that Jesus is the savior and they need to repent, but that the Spirit is testifying of Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church.

Most people are not sophisticated enough to detect the bait-and-switch, so they accept that God has revealed to them that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. It can be very exciting to think that you are “special” because God has given you a revelation.

TBMs, like Zerinus, have also fallen for the same con.

Paul

 

[majick275]

Asking someone to independently pray to God is emotional manipulation? Majick, in another post you stated that you have felt the power of God:

LDS missionaries do a lot more than just ask people to pray. they also tend to “interpret” the response (or lack thereof) to people’s prayers for them.

Obviously, you have been able to discern the difference between personal communication from God and your own feelings. God certainly has the ability to communicate to us and have us understand His communication as you have so stated. I can’t think of any better way to find truth then to ask someone to go to the source – God – and ask Him.

I think there is more to it. God expects us to do some study. he expects us to use the mind he gave us and I believe that he gave us the church as a help to our understanding by having it preserve the meaning of what he has already told us in scripture. only one church has always been here doing just that since the day he came in person to deliver his message to us.

 

[StevenErickson]

I think there is more to it. God expects us to do some study. he expects us to use the mind he gave us and I believe that he gave us the church as a help to our understanding by having it preserve the meaning of what he has already told us in scripture. only one church has always been here doing just that since the day he came in person to deliver his message to us.

I don’t disagree that one should study and use one’s mind, but ultimately we need to ask God if what we are studying and reasoning is correct.

You seem to place high importance on your own personal understanding and very little importance on receiving direct communication from God. Surely, you would agree that direct communication from God is superior to our own understanding?

You obviously have reasoned that your choice in faith is the correct one. Your reasoning alone; however, does not make it so. It does not make it so for any of us. God is the ultimate source of all truth and seeking his guidance and inspiration is ceratinly much more powerful than relying soley on our own understanding.

You have also stated that you have felt the power of God so you know what the power of God feels like. Asking someone to experience what you have already experienced is not manipulative – it would actually be selfish not to encourage others to seek God and feel that same power you have felt, for you know that God can speak to us and you know you can discern the communication is from Him.

 

[majick275]

I don’t disagree that one should study and use one’s mind, but ultimately we need to ask God if what we are studying and reasoning is correct.

you seem to assume that he hasn’t already told us. not everyone has to be a prophet to follow god.

You seem to place high importance on your own personal understanding and very little importance on receiving direct communication from God. Surely, you would agree that direct communication from God is superior to our own understanding?

I disagree with you that place little importance on communication with god. prayer is essential and I am very grateful to God for it. However, I try not to be a sign seeker. when he has already made something obvious why should I doubt? Do you place so little importance on public revelation? if he doesn’t deliver his message to you in person do you discount what he told all?

You obviously have reasoned that your choice in faith is the correct one. Your reasoning alone; however, does not make it so. It does not make it so for any of us. God is the ultimate source of all truth and seeking his guidance and inspiration is ceratinly much more powerful than relying soley on our own understanding.

aahh but I do NOT rely on my reasoning alone. it is part of the equation. because I seek in scripture and tradition, because i have faith in his word I have been able to to hear his voice in prayer. ALL of these go together. God IS the source. he gave us the bible, the catholic church, the Eucharist, sacramental graces, sacred tradition, knowledge AND prayer.

You have also stated that you have felt the power of God so you know what the power of God feels like. Asking someone to experience what you have already experienced is not manipulative – it would actually be selfish not to encourage others to seek God and feel that same power you have felt, for you know that God can speak to us and you know you can discern the communication is from Him.

you bet but LDS missionaries do MUCH more than that and I repeat they tend to interpret others prayers for them. Do I believe evagelization is wrong? of course not. I encourage people to come to God through the Catholic faith because I believe it is in their best interest. I don’t disagree with mormons for proselytizing (except here…preach in your own cyber place), I disagree with mormon missionaries on their tactics. (as well as their doctrine)

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

And they are practiced in the bait-and switch tactic using the Book of Mormon. Many people who have had little religious training read the parts of the BoM that talk about Jesus as the savior and the parts that quote from the bible, and they are emotionally touched. They could have read a similar message in a Billy Graham book or a Jack Van Impe tract (without all the pointless warfare). Then the missionaries tell them, not that their conscience has been pricked and is telling them that Jesus is the savior and they need to repent, but that the Spirit is testifying of Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church.

Most people are not sophisticated enough to detect the bait-and-switch, so they accept that God has revealed to them that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. It can be very exciting to think that you are “special” because God has given you a revelation.

Excellent points, Paul.

Worth reposting.

Robert

 

[StevenErickson]

I disagree with you that place little importance on communication with god. prayer is essential and I am very grateful to God for it. However, I try not to be a sign seeker. when he has already made something obvious why should I doubt? Do you place so little importance on public revelation? if he doesn’t deliver his message to you in person do you discount what he told all?

Yet the explanations on your posts are based solely on logic. You do not say I reasoned it out in my mind, it made logical sense and then I confirmed it with God. You stop at your reasoning. Having direct communication from God is much more enlightning then our own understanding and I would think you would emphasize this more.

There is no such thinkg as public revelation. All revelation is personal. To be clear, God can reveal the same thing to millions of people at the same time, but the confirmation must be experienced individually for each one of the million.

Praying to God is certainly not being a sign seeker especially when a sincere request is being offered to know God’s will.

I don’t disagree with mormons for proselytizing (except here…preach in your own cyber place

This is a Non-Catholic Religions" forum is it not? I certainly have not been the one bringing up Mormon doctrine and missionaires, you have. I believe I am being respectful by staying only within this forum and responding to a few Catholic instigated posts that interested me regarding truth. To me debating doctrine is not productive because both sides believe what they believe. It is more intriguing, for me, to see how a person arrived at their beliefs. My apologies if I have offended.

 

[majick275]

Yet the explanations on your posts are based solely on logic. You do not say I reasoned it out in my mind, it made logical sense and then I confirmed it with God. You stop at your reasoning. Having direct communication from God is much more enlightning then our own understanding and I would think you would emphasize this more.

Perhaps I choose to emphasize the wealth of spiritual food god has already given us. the bible IS direct communication from God. The mass is truly a communion with God as intimate as it gets. he is truly present there. I also don’t think he wants us to bypass everything else and just ask and expect him to just tell us everything in person.

There is no such thinkg as public revelation. All revelation is personal. To be clear, God can reveal the same thing to millions of people at the same time, but the confirmation must be experienced individually for each one of the million.

I strongly disagree with you on this and I think even mormon doctrine contradicts it. (the lord does nothing unless he reveals it to his prophets…) I believe very strongly in public revelation. I believe in private revelation too but I believe they are different.

Praying to God is certainly not being a sign seeker especially when a sincere request is being offered to know God’s will.

I believe it depends on what you pray for. praying to god is good. praying for guidance is fine but I question the “show if this is true” approach.

This is a Non-Catholic Religions" forum is it not? I certainly have not been the one bringing up Mormon doctrine and missionaires, you have. I believe I am being respectful by staying only within this forum and responding to a few Catholic instigated posts that interested me regarding truth. To me debating doctrine is not productive because both sides believe what they believe. It is more intriguing, for me, to see how a person arrived at their beliefs. My apologies if I have offended.

discussing mormon doctrine, teachings, practices is appropriate in this forum but actively seeking converts is impolite at best. for what it’s worth I didn’t bring anything up on this thread, I responded to some comments that I thought required it. I disagree with you again on the value of debating doctrine. I think it helps us understand it better. I appreciate your interest in how people arrive at their beliefs and you certainly haven’t offended me.

God bless you.

 

[StevenErickson]

I am glad I have not offended.

Perhaps I choose to emphasize the wealth of spiritual food god has already given us. the bible IS direct communication from God.

Actually, the Bible is not direct communication from God. It is the result of direct communication to His servants who then wrote their communication down. Certainly this communication to His servants is for us. However, a person still has to come to know that the Bible or any other word is actually from God. This can only come through personal revelation. You say it IS from God, I say how do you know?

I strongly disagree with you on this and I think even mormon doctrine contradicts it. (the lord does nothing unless he reveals it to his prophets…) I believe very strongly in public revelation. I believe in private revelation too but I believe they are different.

I don’t believe so. Perhaps we are talking around each other here. The Lord certainly communicates His will to the prophets. I certainly believe this is true. I assume you believe this is true too since this is how the Bible came to being. Furthermore, the Bible is certainly given to the world from God for our benefit. I am assuming this is what you mean by public revelation (please correct if I am misunderstanding you). I too agree with this.

The Bible claims indirect communication from God through his servants. The Koran claim indirect communication through his servants. The Book of Mormon claims indirect communication through His servants. Which is right? Are they all?

My point is that each of us must personally come to a knowledge of what is true or not through direct personal revelation from God.

I would agree that studying these is a great approach. But ultimately, one needs to get confirmation whether some, all, or none of these are sources from God.

I believe it depends on what you pray for. praying to god is good. praying for guidance is fine but I question the “show if this is true” approach.

I am surprised to hear you say this. I can think of no more eternally important question to ask God then which church is true.
Are you suggesting that God will ignore such a prayer?

discussing mormon doctrine, teachings, practices is appropriate in this forum but actively seeking converts is impolite at best.
God bless you.

I agree.