Mormon missionaries vandalize and desecrate Catholic Shrine

[DJgang]

To anyone condemning these “kids”. Let’s find out exactly what they did before condemning them.

zerinus

It just may be possible that they were hanging around the Catholic church, taking care of the grounds, picking up statue heads of saints, replacing them carefully and making sure that all is ready for Catholic Mass tomorrow morning, especially the altar…

 

[Elric]

You are entitled to your choice; and I am to mine. I have read the Book of Mormon, and know that it is true.

Now that isnt actually true.

You cant explain why the BoM was changed as often as it has been (changing it once is far more than enough, considering its source) or even why there was a need to change it in the first place, how on earth could you know the BoM is/was true?

The answer is easy: You dont know.

I will quote from it to explain the thoelogy of my religion. I am not botherecd if somebody doesn’t like it.

zerinus

I think that maybe you should understand what your religion is and what it is based on before you start trying to explain it.

This is NOT an anti-morman sledge, its actually helpful advice.

 

[Lehl]

It just may be possible that they were hanging around the Catholic church, taking care of the grounds, picking up statue heads of saints, replacing them carefully and making sure that all is ready for Catholic Mass tomorrow morning, especially the altar…

 

[Meinrad]

My co-workers and I talked about this subject tonight at work, and this is what I found:

All the LDS people who I work with said it has been blown way out of proportion and it is just another way for Catholics to attack the Mormon Church.

Everyone else was appalled, and criticized the Mormon workers for turning themselves into the victims.

The same thing happened when my room-mate, who is LDS, came home and heard about it. He attacked me for being Catholic and persecuting Mormons for it.

Why do so many people try to make themselves into victims?

 

[why_me]

My co-workers and I talked about this subject tonight at work, and this is what I found:

All the LDS people who I work with said it has been blown way out of proportion and it is just another way for Catholics to attack the Mormon Church.

Everyone else was appalled, and criticized the Mormon workers for turning themselves into the victims.

The same thing happened when my room-mate, who is LDS, came home and heard about it. He attacked me for being Catholic and persecuting Mormons for it.

Why do so many people try to make themselves into victims?

Lets look at it this way: Two or three young mormon missionaries act immaturely and do an offensive act. They will now be punished if they broke the law. There are 50,000 missionaries at any given time serving in the mission field each year. At this moment, we now have two or three missionaries out of thousands and thousands who behave improperly.

Can you put that into perspective and attempt to understand just why these LDS may have such an attitude if true.

 

[why_me]

It just may be possible that they were hanging around the Catholic church, taking care of the grounds, picking up statue heads of saints, replacing them carefully and making sure that all is ready for Catholic Mass tomorrow morning, especially the altar…

Lets us all hope that young catholics never commit an offensive act against anyone or anything.

 

[why_me]

Annie I am sure that all mormons are not like that but I have to tell you of my experience. Three to four years ago I began to feel very strong urges to explore Catholicism and while I was deciding to convert my spouse told one of our friends (that happens to be Mormon) about my feelings. She promptly told my spouse that it was the devil trying to get me to convert and that it was necessary to try and get me to stop going towards Catholicism. She also told my spouse that; “Mormons hate Catholics”.

If any mormon said what you claimed she had said, I can honestly say that she wasn’t a mormon except in name only. I have never heard of any anticatholicism while I was or have been attending lds meetings. Mormons do not hate catholics.

 

[LaMar]

If any mormon said what you claimed she had said, I can honestly say that she wasn’t a mormon except in name only. I have never heard of any anticatholicism while I was or have been attending lds meetings. Mormons do not hate catholics.

It’s easy to hate people if you consider them followers of Satan. Our own leaders have repeatedly said such things. I don’t know how old you are, but I remember the days when the temple ceremony included a Catholic/Christian priest making a deal with the devil to lead people astray.

Please don’t take my word for it, though. Let’s hear what the apostles and prophets of the LORD have to say:

Here we have Spencer W Kimball, prophet, seer and revelator, president of the church, speaking about other churches as false…

“This is the only true church …This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves” (Spencer W. Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.421)

And here we have Apostle McConkie, author of the definitive tome MORMON DOCTRINE on the Catholic Church being led by Satan.

“…the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, …But with the Bible it was not and is not so…it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization, founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was.” (Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13).

Many in this thread have noted that LDS people have been less than honest, both here on this forum and in regular interactions during day to day life.

Catholics would do well to note that it is not considered a sin in Mormonism to lie to people of other faiths. In fact, LDS children learn from an early age that being dishonest in the service of a “higher purpose” is one of the most holy and sacred deeds one can perform.

youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8
This is a recording of a Mormon authority instructing the youth of the church in the art of deceiving outsiders.

mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord
This breaks the teachings about dishonesty down in a bit more detail.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[why_me]

youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8
This is a recording of a Mormon authority instructing the youth of the church in the art of deceiving outsiders.

I hope this is helpful.

The youtube video was edited and the breaks were clearly seen toward the end. What did this gentleman say? He said 'don’t provide meat when milk will do. In other words, start from the basics and go from there. He was also referring to antagnostic toned questions. Such questions always end in an argument. And as you well know the more difficult questions will be answered in time if one wishes to convert an individual.

 

[why_me]

Please don’t take my word for it, though. Let’s hear what the apostles and prophets of the LORD have to say:

Here we have Spencer W Kimball, prophet, seer and revelator, president of the church, speaking about other churches as false…

“This is the only true church …This is not a church. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. There are churches of men all over the land and they have great cathedrals, synagogues, and other houses of worship running into the hundreds of millions of dollars. They are churches of men. They teach the doctrines of men, combined with the philosophies and ethics and other ideas and ideals that men have partly developed and partly found in sacred places and interpreted for themselves” (Spencer W. Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.421)

I hope this is helpful.

What is SWK suppose to say? If a church claims to be the one true church then it only follows that his explanation would put stress on that fact. And I must say, that a quotation alone does not represent the full context of the message.

Does the luthern church or any other protestant church teach the doctrines of men, if they have women pastors and allow same sex marriages?

And what does the catholic church say about other churches?

And what does this mean? “This is the only true church…this is not a church”.

 

[LaMar]

The youtube video was edited and the breaks were clearly seen toward the end. What did this gentleman say? He said 'don’t provide meat when milk will do. In other words, start from the basics and go from there. He was also referring to antagnostic toned questions. Such questions always end in an argument. And as you well know the more difficult questions will be answered in time if one wishes to convert an individual.

What is SWK suppose to say? If a church claims to be the one true church then it only follows that his explanation would put stress on that fact. And I must say, that a quotation alone does not represent the full context of the message.

Does the luthern church or any other protestant church teach the doctrines of men, if they have women pastors and allow same sex marriages?

And what does the catholic church say about other churches?

And what does this mean? “This is the only true church…this is not a church”.

LOL! LOL! LOL!

Thank you for demonstrating the concept of “a higher form of honesty” for our Catholic friends!

Care to address the real issues now? For example: Why is it that Mormons consider it acceptable to desecrate the private, sacred property of others? Why are Mormons taught that the Catholic church is led by Satan? Why are Mormons, when we are finally caught doing what Mormons regularly do to disrupt the sacred spaces of others, so quick to turn the tables and claim that we are being persecuted?

How is it persecution to be caught committing petty crimes against the people and property of those who disagree with us?

Imagine if some group of devil worship types (and from our perspective that would include Catholics) went into the Salt Lake temple and vandalized one of the murals. Then, after being caught, they wailed and whined about how misunderstood they were – and tried to gain sympathy from the world. Imagine if the Pope were to protect them with press releases and make excuses for them. Laughable and pathetic!

 

[Sword_Brethren]

The only REAL victms here are those kids,

They are not the victims. The Victims are our Lord Jesus Christ and His Church, the Holy Catholic Church

 

[tal0n1987]

i still dont understand “a higher form of honesty”
all i know is being honest. if you can attain a higher form of honesty, then is there a lower form of honesty? does that become not quite honest? which, i would think is a lie. exactly how does that work? and im an outsider. please just give a simple answer so i can understand.

“Catholics would do well to note that it is not considered a sin in Mormonism to lie to people of other faiths. In fact, LDS children learn from an early age that being dishonest in the service of a “higher purpose” is one of the most holy and sacred deeds one can perform.” ???

why would anyone need to lie about their faith? is there something wrong with it? when i was a child, i lied occasionally because i did something wrong. but my dad always knew better and i always got in trouble far worse than if i told the truth. Jesus didnt tell a lie to get off the Cross. telling the truth is what got Him there. and im willing to bet he wouldnt want me lying in order to serve a higher purpose of converting people and leading them astray in places like Sangre de Cristo. but maybe your book of mormon tells otherwise. i dunno. never read it. dont plan on iteither. but who knows, your great apostle teaches us that we cant trust the Bible.

but dont listen to me. i worship Mary and all manner of nasty things. actually, i dont worship Mary and all manner of nasty things. what i told you was a lie. kinda like when someone says phrases like Jesus Christ and of Latter Day Saints. thats what you tell outsiders, but what do you really believe?

Semper Fidelis Marines
Mike
P.S. i like how the ‘true’ church and teaching children to lie to outsiders are used in the same post.

 

[LaMar]

i still dont understand “a higher form of honesty”
all i know is being honest. if you can attain a higher form of honesty, then is there a lower form of honesty? does that become not quite honest? which, i would think is a lie. exactly how does that work? and im an outsider. please just give a simple answer so i can understand.

“A higher form of honesty” is a euphemism which describes lying in order to make the LDS church look good, or at least not so bad, in the eyes of the public. It’s like “WhyMe” (a very Mormon, victim mentality name lol) squealing about how “We don’t hate Catholics” despite all the teachings of the church which describe the Catholic church as the Church of Satan, and Catholic people as either deluded or downright evil. That we don’t hate Catholics would be true in some cases. Most Mormons fear and feel sorry for Catholics, though some do hate you guys.

A simple example of “a higher form of honesty” would be the prophet and president of the LDS church Gordon B Hinckley’s appearance on Larry King Live, where he stated “I don’t know that we teach that” in response to a delicate subject that was brought up by the host. King asked him about the Mormon doctrine which holds that devout Mormons will get to become Gods and Goddesses of their own planets, through the plan of eternal progression. Of course, the LDS church does teach that and Hinckley knows that. It was necessary to lie though, in order that the LDS church doesn’t look strange or bizarre to outsiders, and under these circumstances Mormons consider the lie to be “a higher form of honesty” and a noble, holy act.

 

[lukewarm]

Having followed this story and read comments on the Salt Lake trib MADB here and other places, I can’t believe how adept LDS are at making themselves the victims of this thing. Granted it was a limited action done by a select set of young kids and not totally unexpected, but these kids are LDS and DO represent the Church in a formal capacity, they should expect some criticism. I didn’t even really think the act was that big of a deal as long as they paid restitution. But the way the LDS posters around the NET have somehow flipped this into enormous persecution against THEM is nothing short of amazing.

 

[rpp]

Help me out here.

What is the topic of this thread?

 

[Meinrad]

Just to deviate from the real topic again real quick, and going back to the whole thing about the LDS church lying… A lot of it is more omission. Living in Utah, it is hard not to end up dating a Mormon. One in particular broke up with me after a week because I was Catholic. We got back together, but she kept demanding I at least go to church with her and meet with missionaries. The missionaries came, preached their lessons, showed me a DVD about how great Joseph Smith was as a child, and then asked if I believed in Christ. Well, the obvious answer is yes. So they asked when I wanted to be baptized. It shames me to some degree that I did, in fact, get baptized in the Mormon church. THEN they sprung the other beliefs on me. Becoming a god, having goddess wives (yes, that was plural), Joseph Smith being a prophet and having “done more for Humanity than Jesus” (blasphemy!) etc. I promptly left and confessed to my priest. Of course, I studied the Mormon faith while I was there, but I also heard about some of the rituals held in the temples, and something about chanting a prayer that supposedly called Satan to Adam.

Basically, in my own experience, a lot of Utah Mormons in particular are dishonest. The vast majority of the ones I have met have no reverence for the beliefs of anyone else unless they think they can convert them.

I used to think there were a lot more Mormons in any given area of Utah than there really are because their wards were so big. Imagine my surprise when I found out the chapel is one of the smaller rooms, and at least a third of each ward is a basketball court. But I suppose that explains why there are wards every three blocks in every direction, and why two LDS wards are the first buildings to be erected in a new neighborhood, where no one has moved yet.

Back to the topic, and to repeat myself a bit, I wish I could say I was surprised that the Mormons at work would turn themselves into the victims at something their own members did. I remember seeing some kids that had spray painted something on an LDS ward, and all the people who went there for church were standing outside, crying and staring at it.

No matter what happens with these three punks, the damage is done in two ways. Of course the statue will have to be repaired or replaced, if not already done so, but the bad publicity about Mormons is already out there again just waiting for anyone to stumble onto it.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

Please stay on topic. Thank you!

 

[LaMar]

Just to deviate from the real topic again real quick, and going back to the whole thing about the LDS church lying…

I don’t think that an exploration into the motivations behind destroying a sacred shrine, decapitating statues, and other such hate crimes is deviating from the topic.

Mormons do these things often (though it’s rare they are stupid enough to advertise their involvement and subsequently get caught). It helps to know what sort of warped psychological outlook might motivate this lousy behavior. It’s also interesting to explore the defense mechanisms which Mormons employ when they are caught in criminal acts.

Whether anyone likes it or not, this is not going to be the last time that the “saints” wreck property and feel as though they are justified doing so. I think it helps to put these sorts of crimes in context, so that we can understand what propels some to be so disrespectful.

 

[Annie_B]

I don’t think that an exploration into the motivations behind destroying a sacred shrine, decapitating statues, and other such hate crimes is deviating from the topic.

Mormons do these things often (though it’s rare they are stupid enough to advertise their involvement and subsequently get caught). It helps to know what sort of warped psychological outlook might motivate this lousy behavior. It’s also interesting to explore the defense mechanisms which Mormons employ when they are caught in criminal acts.

Whether anyone likes it or not, this is not going to be the last time that the “saints” wreck property and feel as though they are justified doing so. I think it helps to put these sorts of crimes in context, so that we can understand what propels some to be so disrespectful.

“Mormons do these things often”?? Could you please back that up?
Thanks -
Annie