Mormon/Polygamy question

[teancum79]

you know for a church that focuses so much on problems with the “translation” of the bible you don’t seem very intent on trying to fix those type of problems. the word used in the original hebrew is thou shalt not MURDER. bit of a difference. mosaic law covers “killing” in great detail. if that had been the literal commandment then we would have to be vegetarians. but if you read it as intended…don’t murder! it makes sense and so does the rest of Gods commands.

Would your understanding of “murder” include knocking off young children?

 

[majick275]

Would your understanding of “murder” include knocking off young children?

depends on the children. i subscribe to the “just war” doctrine. children have been killed in many wars and often times destroying population centers (every man , woman and child) was the price of victory. I trust God to care for their souls. i don’t consider hiroshima or dresden murder. if we can win a war (assuming the war necessary to begin with) without children dying or suffering that’s preferable but sometimes it has to happen. war is hell. that’s a fact and while i wish it didn’t happen sometimes it’s necessary.

 

[Benadam]

At times however God may command some people to take actions that are not the same as the general rule.

Plural marriage under commandment from God is the right thing to do.

What conditions or circumstances would make polygamy necessary in the 17th century?

There are good reason that an act would be moral at one time and immoral at another.

I’m just wondering what made it a moral act then as opposed to now?

 

[distracted]

I was pointing out the stupidity of the cheep shot.

You see it as cheap shot, i see it as simply stating a fact…

At times however God may command some people to take actions that are not the same as the general rule.

some people?? Like males? Does God also sometimes say it is OK for a woman to have 20 husbands??
Gee, i wonder why THAT is never mentioned in the Bible…

This was one of many times when God commanded people to brake the no killing rule.

God never condones multiple marriage partners… He doesn’t and never has even condoned divorce-&-re-marriage… It was only because Moses allowed it -because of the hardness of men’s hearts… and various other people allowed polygamy in the OT but God never did…

Plural marriage is much the same it is contrary to God commandments for men to have more than one wife. Unless God says that they are. .

This is not logical… If God is against polygamy (or anything for that matter) He is against it always and forever… God does not change… People do… but God never does… He does not say that something is right today and wrong tomorrow… He may even allow some practice or another that He didn’t always allow but that doesn’t mean he approves of it…
I have no idea why he would allow somethin he doesn’t condone… but i don’t understand a lot of things about God… All i know is that he is against polygamy and divorce/re-marriage… and i wouldn’t want to be in t he shoes, at Judgemnt Day, of one who goes against what God wants…

God is never in favor of antyhing that causes “damage” to another human being… No woman wants to share her man with another woman - and if she does, she is abnormal - possibly possessed…

 

[teancum79]

What conditions or circumstances would make polygamy necessary in the 17th century?

There are good reason that an act would be moral at one time and immoral at another.

I’m just wondering what made it a moral act then as opposed to now?

I’ve seen many speculations about the issues of more way more women than men and such they may well be true but God’s command is the factor.

In the BoM Jacob gives his people a good tongue lashing about their having more than one wife. in part

" 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things."

 

[Benadam]

You see it as cheap shot, i see it as simply stating a fact…

This is not logical… If God is against polygamy (or anything for that matter) He is against it always and forever… God does not change… People do… but God never does… He does not say that something is right today and wrong tomorrow… He may even allow some practice or another that He didn’t always allow but that doesn’t mean he approves of it… who knows what it means except that God is above us… and our understanding of him is weak…

What i am saying is that God is never in favor of antyhing that causes destruction to another human being. No woman wants to share her man with another and if she does, she is abnormal and possibly possessed…

but you know, who cares what God wants??

Seriously… this world just doesn’t seem to care waht God wants… (the definition of sin)… No wonder, as apparitions of Mary tell us, many people go to Hell… very few directly into Heaven…

If an act is necessary in order for man to return to God it is natural and good to do.

The necessity for siblings to intermarry in the beginning for example.

 

[teancum79]

You see it as cheap shot, i see it as simply stating a fact…

This is not logical… If God is against polygamy (or anything for that matter) He is against it always and forever… God does not change… People do… but God never does… He does not say that something is right today and wrong tomorrow… He may even allow some practice or another that He didn’t always allow but that doesn’t mean he approves of it… who knows what it means except that God is above us… and our understanding of him is weak…

What i am saying is that God is never in favor of antyhing that causes destruction to another human being. No woman wants to share her man with another and if she does, she is abnormal and possibly possessed…

but you know, who cares what God wants??

Seriously… this world just doesn’t seem to care waht God wants… (the definition of sin)… No wonder, as apparitions of Mary tell us, many people go to Hell… very few directly into Heaven…

So was God always for or alway against killing animals for sacrifices?

Was God always for requiring or not of circumcision?

Was God always for or not the Israelites killing everyone who lived in their lands?

 

[distracted]

If an act is necessary in order for man to return to God it is natural and good to do.
.

That still doesn’t make it “right” or something God condones… and God would not use polygamy to bring someone back to Him… unless man commits polygamy and leaves God no choice… God brings good out of evil but that does not mean he wants evil…

 

[distracted]

So was God always for or alway against killing animals for sacrifices?

God commanded animal sacrifice… As far as i know and Scripture tells us… of course, i wasn’t “there”… so i have to take the Bible’s word for it… and do…

Was God always for or not the Israelites killing everyone who lived in their lands?

No, he wasn’t… but he was against idolatry (etc) more…

 

[teancum79]

see this is the hard part beacuse commanded the killing of animals and Christ said to stop. The Israelites where commanded to kill those who lived in their lands. If Gods commandments are always the same and are not adaptive to a particular situation than the Bible needs some serious work. If however God can command group A to do one thing and group B to do another and they are both going to be blessed for obeying we can keep the Bible.

 

[Benadam]

That still doesn’t make it “right” or something God condones… and God would not use polygamy to bring someone back to Him… unless man commits polygamy and leaves God no choice… God brings good out of evil but that does not mean he wants evil…

slow down a bit there. That statement outlines a criteria necessary for God to ‘command’ polygamy. It wasn’t necessary in the beginning why would it ever be necessary?

 

[Benadam]

see this is the hard part beacuse commanded the killing of animals and Christ said to stop. The Israelites where commanded to kill those who lived in their lands. If Gods commandments are always the same and are not adaptive to a particular situation than the Bible needs some serious work. If however God can command group A to do one thing and group B to do another and they are both going to be blessed for obeying we can keep the Bible.

Well would John the Baptist be ableto recognize Christ without knowing the meaning of the spotless Lamb led to slaughter?

 

[teancum79]

Well would John the Baptist be ableto recognize Christ without knowing the meaning of the spotless Lamb led to slaughter?

The law of Moses was a huge symbolic thing. The point I was making is that God can and does give different commandments to people for specific reasons.

extra thought I think john was connected enough to the HS to get it, but for the rest of the nation it was needed.

 

[Benadam]

see this is the hard part beacuse commanded the killing of animals and Christ said to stop. The Israelites where commanded to kill those who lived in their lands. If Gods commandments are always the same and are not adaptive to a particular situation than the Bible needs some serious work. If however God can command group A to do one thing and group B to do another and they are both going to be blessed for obeying we can keep the Bible.

You are right. But I don’t understand how polygamy in the 1800’s for a group of folks…even if they are the Latter Day Saints…would be a moral act and a century later it’s not.

 

[Filius99993]

I hope this isn’t too off topic:

I recently read “A Study in Scarlet”. I’m pretty sure that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was against polygamy and Mormonism… as the victims of the crime were both polygamist Mormons who happened to kill two people through their polygamist Mormon exploits. I think it’s a bit far-fetched myself, but it’s always a bad thing to treat a woman as if she were one’s property. And that’s the gist of what polygamy does.

 

[distracted]

see this is the hard part beacuse commanded the killing of animals and Christ said to stop.

Where in the Word of God does it say that Christ said to stop???

The Israelites where commanded to kill those who lived in their lands. If Gods commandments are always the same and are not adaptive to a particular situation than the Bible needs some serious work.

I think you are missing something… I’m sure we all are because we are not God… but in any case, it is not as if God “adapts” because of change… or whatever… In having the Israelites kill off all those people, he was stamping out idolatry, which i believe was just another word for Satanism though such terminology was not used back then… In any case, it was not so much adapting to a situation as God hating one evil more than another… He knew that allowing those people to live meant allowing their idolatry to survive… & He had to protect His chosen people… this is just my surmising & not necessarily what the Church would offically say. However, i am 99% sure of what i am saying.

God does NOT change… because Truth does not change… God is limited in what He can do because human beings have free will & He won’t violate that…

 

[distracted]

I’m just wondering what made it a moral act then as opposed to now?

God doesn’t change… If he is against polygamy now, he always was… just because he didn’t annhilate whole populations way back when, when they practiced polygamy doesn’t mean he was in favor of it… God allows all kinds of things, even diabolical evil, only because man allows it… Man, with all his selfishness and inconsidertion of others… man who is responsible for things like WWI and II… the Stalin and Saddaam regimes…

Man seems to like the ideaa of a changable God… otherwise, we could not condone what our evil minds tell us to do… We say that masturbation is “OK” in some situations… abortion is OK in some situations (other than physical life of mother)… Man is a good rationalizer…

 

[distracted]

I hope this isn’t too off topic:

Not hardly…

I recently read “A Study in Scarlet”. I’m pretty sure that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was against polygamy and Mormonism… as the victims of the crime were both polygamist Mormons who happened to kill two people through their polygamist Mormon exploits.

What is meant by “polygamist Mormon exploits”??

I think it’s a bit far-fetched myself, but it’s always a bad thing to treat a woman as if she were one’s property. And that’s the gist of what polygamy does.

**
A big AMEN to that!!**

 

[distracted]

You are right. But I don’t understand how polygamy in the 1800’s for a group of folks…even if they are the Latter Day Saints…would be a moral act and a century later it’s not.

Right - Jesus Christ would not tell people something is immoral one year and moral the next… It is PEOPLE who do that…

There is a God-made Church and then there are man-made ones…

 

[teancum79]

Where in the Word of God does it say that Christ said to stop???

I think you are missing something… I’m sure we all are because we are not God… but in any case, it is not as if God “adapts” because of change… or whatever… In having the Israelites kill off all those people, he was stamping out idolatry, which i believe was just another word for Satanism though such terminology was not used back then… In any case, it was not so much adapting to a situation as God hating one evil more than another… He knew that allowing those people to live meant allowing their idolatry to survive… & He had to protect His chosen people… this is just my surmising & not necessarily what the Church would offically say. However, i am 99% sure of what i am saying.

God does NOT change… because Truth does not change… God is limited in what He can do because human beings have free will & He won’t violate that…

God is consistent, but he does give commandments to do different things. As to killing animals Christ was the end of that practice (If not we all need to invest in some sheep beacuse we all are way behind).

God’s command to not kill just like only one wife can be trumped by God giving another command