Mormon Religion

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dianaiad said:
Rebecca, the latae sententaei excommunication is instant; that’s the whole idea behind it. Any further, formal excommunication is only a recognition of what already exists; that is, as soon as someone commits the sin for which a latae sententaei excommunication is the penalty, then that excommunication happens. For instance; a woman who has had an abortion is excommunicated as soon as that abortion is concluded. Nobody has to do anything to her, or declare that she is excommunicated; she simply is.

The same thing goes for someone who physically attacks the Pope or a Bishop, or who desecrates the Host, or who commits heresy.

According to what I have learned, what happens after that isn’t about deciding whether someone will be excommunicated; that’s a done deal. What happens after that is about figuring out what must be done to have that excommunication lifted.

If one is truly repentant, evidently, (at least in the case of abortion) that excommunication can be lifted in the confessional–but it can only be LIFTED by a priest; her excommunication was not formally imposed by an eclesiastical court or authority.
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The Church always takes it account the level of culpability. If/when a person confessed to procuring or helping to procure an abortion, the priest would advise them in this matter.

The cases I’ve heard or read about, the person asked for advice from a priest and/or bishop, and went against that advice.

On the other hand, it would unfortunate for a person to think they have excommunicated themselves, when perhaps, they have not. A priest should be consulted in these instances. Nothing should be assumed. (Either for or against excommunication.)
 
aspirant said:
Like any book with a valid copyright, it is available to the public, but only if you pay for it, get it from a library, borrow it from a friend, etc.

The 1967 New Catholic Encyclopedia didn’t just update articles, it replaced them entirely. And there have been new editions of the NCE since 1967.

There have been many changes to canon law since 1907. New Codes were issued in 1917 and 1983, and they were not just minor revisions.
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Plus Papal edicts.
 
dianaiad said:
No Catholic HAS to take communion, and no Catholic HAS to go to confession, right?
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Canonically we do: “After having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.” Of course, many people choose to disobey canon law, just as many people choose to disobey moral law, but it does exist. 🙂
dianaiad said:
However, if a Catholic wants heaven and loves Christ, he will do what he believes Christ wants him to do. that means the confessional and communion; repentance and the recieving of grace.
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Yes.
dianaiad said:
When you begin college, you don’t HAVE to take the core classes and then specialty classes…but if you want that diploma, you WILL.
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Yes.
 
dianaiad said:
What I DID find was interesting; murder does not encure an automatic excommunication.
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Correct.
dianaiad said:
In fact, from what I could tell, murder isn’t a bad enough sin to justify a formal excommunication hearing, either.
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You are thinking like a Mormon, not a Catholic. Murder, if committed with fulll knowledge and consent, is a mortal sin. If unrepented, it will damn the person who commits it. Mortal sins and excommunicable offenses are not the same thing in Catholicism; most mortal sins are not excommunicable offenses. Excommunication is really very rare in the Catholic Church.
 
dianaiad said:
are you telling me that it is possible that a Catholic woman, anywhere at all, does NOT know that procuring one is an excommunicatable offense?
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My guess would be that most Catholic women have no idea. Most Catholics know a lot more about Catholic doctrine and morality than they do about canon law. And though I think they should learn more about canon law, doctrine and morality really are far more important.
 
aspirant said:
Correct.

You are thinking like a Mormon, not a Catholic. Murder, if committed with fulll knowledge and consent, is a mortal sin. If unrepented, it will damn the person who commits it. Mortal sins and excommunicable offenses are not the same thing in Catholicism; most mortal sins are not excommunicable offenses. Excommunication is really very rare in the Catholic Church.
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Excommunicatus vitandus was even rarer.
 
dianaiad said:
I have noted the paragraph swapping; it’s frustrating, especially since it is difficult to identify the primary source. The sources you have given are non-Catholic all–in the sense that there is no official Catholic link or formal approval by Catholicism for them. You know me; that always rings an alarm bell in my head.

So what I did is to go to that 1983 Code of Canon Law, and see if I could find anything there. Dang it, it reads like a congressional bill. :confused:

What I did note, however, is the complete absence of the term 'vitandus…" and for that matter, I couldn’t see where it mentioned anything about what the consequences were for a lay Catholic who encured the penalty of excommunication, whether “latae sententae” or formal. I’m sure it’s there, but someone else is going to have to find it; my eyes are crossing.

What I DID find was interesting; murder does not encure an automatic excommunication. In fact, from what I could tell, murder isn’t a bad enough sin to justify a formal excommunication hearing, either. Such a sin is left for secular authorities to punish. Here: it’s a very short chapter; in Title VI “Offensed against Human life and Liberty” we read the following:

Canon 1397 One who commits murder, or who by force or by fraud abducts, imprisons, mutilates or gravely wounds a person, is to be punished, acording to the gravity of the offence, with the deprevations an prohibitions mentioned in Canon 1336. In the case of the murder of one of those person mentioned in Canon 1370, the offencer is punished with the penalties there prescribed.

Canon 1398 A person who actually procures an abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

That’s it for Title VI.

Now Canon1336 does not prescribe excommunication, as such–that is, while the penalties there include a prohibition against living somewhere (the equivalent of a restraining order) and being fired from any office or job held, the removal of any honors, a ‘penal transfer’ or getting kicked out of the priesthood (if the murderer/abductor whatever happens to be a priest), but there is nothing there about excommunication as such; one is still allowed to take communion and participate as a full lay member of the church.

…unless of course the victim is one of those mentioned in 1370–and that involves a whole lot more hurt. THAT results in a latae sententiae excommunication. 1370 talks about attacks against the Pope or a Bishop.

I also read in the Code of Canon Law about a specific penalty assessed against those without whose aid an abortion could not be completed, but I can’t remember whether that was a latae sententiae excommunication or a 'just penalty–" and now I can’t find it again. Someone with a better eye?

Diana
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The quotes I was referring to were the quotes in a previous post, the large quote in the middle of the post titled “Censures” was a direct quote from the 1983 canon law.
 
aspirant said:
You are thinking like a Mormon, not a Catholic. Murder, if committed with fulll knowledge and consent, is a mortal sin. If unrepented, it will damn the person who commits it. Mortal sins and excommunicable offenses are not the same thing in Catholicism; most mortal sins are not excommunicable offenses. Excommunication is really very rare in the Catholic Church.
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Yes, she is not thinking like a Catholic; judging a person’s heart or mind seems to be more acceptable to Mormons. Sometimes we are not sure if someone has murdered or not, but abortion is murder every time.
 
Stephen168 said:
Yes, she is not thinking like a Catholic; judging a person’s heart or mind seems to be more acceptable to Mormons. Sometimes we are not sure if someone has murdered or not, but abortion is murder every time.
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Here’s the problem with your statement, Stephen; if excommunication latae sententiae is automatic and instant, and only applies when the sinner is aware that whatever s/he did will result in such a penalty, then it’s a matter of God judging, not man judging, isn’t it? Motive, in other words, matters?

…and motive is something that God is quite aware of; the murderer knows when it is murder–yet there is no provision for excommunication latae sententiae for it, whether the murderer and God know that it is or not.

It certainly can be argued that not all abortions are murder–if you define abortion as the Catholic church does, that is; the ending of a pregnancy resulting in the birth/appearance of an unviable fetus/dead child. Some abortions are simply nature doing what nature does. Some are the result of medical procedures where the death of the child is an ‘unwanted, but unavoidable side effect.’ (…and you know what I think about that last…) Those abortions which are sought for the express purpose of ending the inconvenient life of a child–as afterthought birth control–THEY are murders, I believe. However, they aren’t murders because they are abortions. They are murders because they are murders.

Now remember; “killing” and “murder” are not synonyms. The canon law did not mention ‘killing.’ It specifically mentioned ‘murder.’ For you to claim that not all murders are, in fact, murder is not exactly logical. It’s like claiming that not all real diamonds are actually diamonds, or that not all fresh water lakes are, in fact, fresh water lakes.
 
It seems to me that the difference is in the thinking and then the application of the punishment. Excommunication is relatively common as a punishment within the mormon church. Certainly when I was on a bishopric courts of love were not altogether uncommon. Not all of those result in excommunication but significant proportion do. On the other hand it is far less common for Catholics to excommunicate. In my experience mormons make it their business to know what’s going on in other mormons lives, and will report each other so that disciplinary action can be taken. Catholics don’t interfere in lives of their members nearly as much.

I’ll give an example, I have mormon and catholic friends who are gay. Without exception my gay mormon friends have been called to a church court once knowledge of them coming out has reached the church through the grape vine. Most resign before anything happens, but the fact remains that they were about to get excommunicated in all likelihood.

None of my Catholic friends have been asked to see anyone at their local parish. None have been called before church courts or whatever the catholic term is on the basis of hearsay evidence.

Both churches view homosexuality as sinful and yet two different approaches and two different ways of thinking. I’m not catholic so I can’t tell you why, but maybe it’s because the Catholic church sees it as the responsibility of the sinner to confess rather than it being the responsibility of the church to elicit a confession… maybe someone catholic can explain that.
 
dianaiad said:
It certainly can be argued that not all abortions are murder–if you define abortion as the Catholic church does, that is; the ending of a pregnancy resulting in the birth/appearance of an unviable fetus/dead child. Some abortions are simply nature doing what nature does.
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Spontaneous abortion (or miscarriage) is most certainly not included in the definition of abortions capable of incurring an excommunication.
dianaiad said:
Some are the result of medical procedures where the death of the child is an ‘unwanted, but unavoidable side effect.’
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We would not call this abortion at all.
 
averagejoe84 said:
Excommunication is relatively common as a punishment within the mormon church.
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That’s my understanding. Or at least more common than among Catholics, it seems. From what I can tell, if you ask the average Mormon whether they’ve ever personally met someone who either has been excommunicated or was in serious danger of being excommunicated, they are a lot more likely to answer “yes” than the average Catholic. I’ve never known of a Catholic who knows someone who’s been excommunicated.
averagejoe84 said:
I’ll give an example, I have mormon and catholic friends who are gay. Without exception my gay mormon friends have been called to a church court once knowledge of them coming out has reached the church through the grape vine. Most resign before anything happens, but the fact remains that they were about to get excommunicated in all likelihood.

None of my Catholic friends have been asked to see anyone at their local parish. None have been called before church courts or whatever the catholic term is on the basis of hearsay evidence.
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Being homosexually inclined, even openly so, is not a sin from a Catholic perspective, much less an excommunicable offense.

Catholics do believe that having sex with persons of the same sex is immoral and grave matter. In certain circumstances it would be a mortal sin which, if unrepented, could lead to damnation. It is not an excommunicable offense, even if publicly known. A Catholic would not face a tribunal over this. He will either confess in the sacrament of reconciliation or not.
averagejoe84 said:
Both churches view homosexuality as sinful and yet two different approaches and two different ways of thinking.
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Sounds like it.
averagejoe84 said:
maybe it’s because the Catholic church sees it as the responsibility of the sinner to confess rather than it being the responsibility of the church to elicit a confession.
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Yes.
 
TheosisM said:
Let’s not turn this into another abortion thread. :banghead:
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Sorry, that’s not my intention. I just wanted to clarify that the “if you define abortion as the Catholic church does” comment wasn’t accurate.
 
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