Mormon Temple in Rome, happening today

[lax16]

Given that the actual Mormon website says it, doesn’t it make it infallible?

continued:

Should We Pray to Jesus Christ?

BOOK OF MORMON: YES LDS CHURCH: NO
“…Jesus came and stood in the midst…he spake unto the multitude, and commanded them that they should kneel down again upon the earth, and also that his disciples should kneel down upon the earth. And it came to pass that when they had all knelt down upon the earth, he commanded his disciples that they should pray. And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.”—3 Nephi 19:15-18
“Elder Bruce R. McConkie clearly explained what our relationship with each member of the Godhead should be, pointing out that some misguided members of the Church may ‘begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed’ with him. This is wrong, said Elder McConkie. We should pray directly to the Father…”—The Ensign, June 1998, p. 59

Should We Worship Jesus Christ?

BOOK OF MORMON: YES LDS CHURCH: NO
“And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ… wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.”—2 Nephi 25:29

“…I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.”—1 Nephi 11:24

“Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.”—3 Nephi 11:17
“We Worship the Father… In an official interpretation of Moses 1:6, the First Presidency (Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, And Charles W. Penrose) said: ‘But the sole object of worship, God the eternal Father, stands supreme and alone…’ Who is the sole object of worship?.. President George Q. Cannon taught: ‘…We know also that our Father in Heaven should be the object of our worship… He will not have any divided worship. We are commanded to worship Him, and Him only.’ (Gospel Truth, 1:135)” —Come Unto Christ —Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, 1986, p. 46-47

Does God Forgive Us for Murder?

BOOK OF MORMON: YES DOCTRINE & COVENANTS: NO
“…And I shall also thank my God, yea, my great God, that he hath granted unto us that we might repent of these things, and also that he hath forgiven us of those our many sins and murders which we have commited, and taken away the guilt from our hearts, through the merits of his Son.”—Alma 24:10 “…And it shall come to pass, that if any persons among you shall kill they shall be delivered up and dealt with acccording to the laws of the land; for remember that he hath no forgiveness; and it shall be proved according to the laws of the land.” —Doctrine and Covenants 42:79

Do Babies Who Die Grow in the Spirit World?

PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH: NO JOSEPH F SMITH: YES
“But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead…It will never grow: it will still be the child, in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother’s arms…Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, will not one cubit added to their stature.”—Joseph Smith, 1844, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10 “All spirits are in adult form. They were adults before their mortal existence, and they are in adult form after death, even if they die as infants or children (see Joseph F Smith, Gospel Doctrine, p. 455).”—Gospel Principles, 1992, p 290

 

[ParkerD]

People who are living according to God’s plan don’t need to change their hearts or desires. And who in your church has the right to judge another person’s worthiness?
The fact that the LDS church has set up these hoops to jump through is the complete opposite of what Jesus taught.

Lax16,
I had said I would get back to you. I don’t get the feeling that you have much of a background in either the Old Testament or the New Testament to understand my responses. I already had written about the apostles, who had the specific responsibility (which Catholics seem to think was handed down to the bishops) to make some sort of determination about worthiness (which would seem to be why Catholic priests listen to confessions, rather than teaching the correct doctrine that confession should be directly to God in prayer.) That is why I had brought up the Catholic post where the person was troubled that they couldn’t partake of the Eucharist.

So, we’re just going around in circles and it serves no purpose.

I could easily answer each of your later points in your recent discussion with other posters, but you have precisely the kinds of justifications that you have wanted–don’t know why you bothered.

As far as the economics of temple building and the economics of paying craftsmen and workers to do excellent work, and the money circulating in an economy and thus creating jobs, then I see that is a topic that would probably not be understood by people who seem only to see money as being needed to help the poor directly rather than pay people to work and thus help the poor by providing them means for work and an income through that work.

So enjoy what you have, and be glad you’ve chosen what you’ve chosen, and I will do the same, with full understanding of the whys of my choices.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Lax16,
I had said I would get back to you. I don’t get the feeling that you have much of a background in either the Old Testament or the New Testament to understand my responses. I already had written about the apostles, who had the specific responsibility (which Catholics seem to think was handed down to the bishops) to make some sort of determination about worthiness (which would seem to be why Catholic priests listen to confessions, rather than teaching the correct doctrine that confession should be directly to God in prayer.) .

So an LDS need not ever confess to a bishop and go through “the repentance process” and of course should never be dis-fellowshipped or excommunicated because all they need to do is confess directly to God. Your church is not following correct doctrine it seems from the tales of woe I’ve read on NOM about members who go through tremendous anxiety about the “requirement” to confess certain sins to a bishop, not to mention the treatment some have receive at those bishops hands. Don’t be a hypocrite Parker you know good and well your church expects confession to bishops, you interview all your members annually for heavens sake.

 

[ParkerD]

So an LDS need not ever confess to a bishop and go through “the repentance process” and of course should never be dis-fellowshipped or excommunicated because all they need to do is confess directly to God. Your church is not following correct doctrine it seems from the tales of woe I’ve read on NOM about members who go through tremendous anxiety about the “requirement” to confess certain sins to a bishop, not to mention the treatment some have receive at those bishops hands. Don’t be a hypocrite Parker you know good and well your church expects confession to bishops, you interview all your members annually for heavens sake.

Zaffiroborant,

The context of the conversation was a “temple recommend interview” in which a list of specific questions are asked that have to do with worthiness to enter the temple–the “house of the Lord”. Those questions are determined by the Twelve Apostles, and usually the members give a simple “yes” or “no” answer because the questions are not asking for confession of everyday kinds of sins. If an LDS member had committed adultery, fornication, child or spouse abuse, or a criminal act punishable by law, then they would have been expected based on the teachings of their church, to have disclosed that in a private interview with the bishop long before a “temple recommend interview”, and would know that a “temple recommend” was out of the question unless such had been done and been resolved through such a person confessing to God, resolving the action by changing behavior and making restitution if circumstances included needing to do that, and in that repentance process had disclosed the serious sin to the member’s bishop so that he could discern whether the person was going through the process of sincere repentance and had resolved the matter.

I suppose one could call that “hearing confession,” but I think it is understood by LDS members that they are to confess any sin in their life to God directly in prayer, and thus the Savior will lift them toward making changes in their life and will heal their heart, and if they do that and know the Ten Commandments and keep them then they will never during the course of their life “need” to resolve a serious sin because they will have resolved “less serious sins” directly with God through prayer, and won’t get into the position of committing one of those serious sins. (Being dis-fellowshipped or excommunicated has to do with whether the person can partake of communion and whether a man loses his authority of the priesthood–not whether the person can enter the temple since they already know they can’t. It has to do with those specific serious sins that I already listed, and the bishop considers the circumstance based on written guidelines from the apostles if a member committed one of those serious sins.)

 

[KathleenGee]

I wonder how much the Mormons consult with Jewish scholars regarding the practices of the Jewish temple. The Jewish Temple was for the Jewish people. Christ replaced the Jewish temple.

There is a book out that helps guide people in understanding past practices, ‘Cultural Tools for Interpreting the Good News’, by John Pilch.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

The Christian Mass replaced the sacrificial worship of the Jewish Temple. Every Gospel of Christ has reference to the Christian liturgy.

The Catholic Church receives its life from the Holy Spirit, and also the Holy Spirit’s work through every generation, which we call Tradition. To discern truth from falsehoods, we need the Holy Spirit Who has always been with us. If we did not, we would not have the uniformity of faith that is accepted throughout the Christian world.
A tragedy today we also witnessing is the attempted genocide of the Assyrian Catholic Christians in Iraq who have been there practically since the beginning of Christianity almost 2,000 years.

The Mass was previously called, ‘The Breaking of the Bread’ drawn from the ancient Jewish practice of calling down God’s blessings before a meal. Christ numerous times spoke of His oneness with us as being at the Banquet Table, and that His kingdom is here now among us. The Apostles were commanded by Christ to do this: providing the Sacred Banquet of the Word and Eucharist – as the first priests – for us. Christ fulfilled Malachi’s prophesy that in time there would come about the perpetual sacrifice.

I have read your posts regarding the Mormon difference regarding the understanding and practice of the priesthood. St. Justin the Martyr commented in 150 AD…less than the time I have been alive – 60 years after the death of the last apostle and documented the practice of the Christian Mass everywhere in both east and west in the Roman Empire:

“There is not one single race of men…among whom prayers and Eucharist are not offered through the name of the crucified Jesus.” The Early Church Fathers appointed by the Apostles and some of them, appointed by the successors to the Apostles had the practice of drawing from the Old Testament of Malachi’s prophecy to the Mass:

“From the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering.”

St. Paul, who was Jew, spoke to the Greek Christians, passing on the culture of the Breaking of Bread: “For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when He was betrayed took bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it, and said, ‘This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ He also referred again, 1 Cor: 11:23-25, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me’”.

The Mass is the perpetual sacrifice that can be said in a church or in a barn, or in a field, these times of persecution.

For those seeking the truth of Christianity in historical practice, Dr Scott Hahn’s book, ‘The Lamb’s Supper’ is very helpful.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,
I had said I would get back to you. I don’t get the feeling that you have much of a background in either the Old Testament or the New Testament to understand my responses. I already had written about the apostles, who had the specific responsibility (which Catholics seem to think was handed down to the bishops) to make some sort of determination about worthiness (which would seem to be why Catholic priests listen to confessions, rather than teaching the correct doctrine that confession should be directly to God in prayer.) That is why I had brought up the Catholic post where the person was troubled that they couldn’t partake of the Eucharist.

Hi Parker - Just because there is no connection between animal sacrifices that took place in The Temple and the baptisms for the dead, sealings and endowments in mason-type rituals that occur in LDS temples does not mean I don’t understand the Old and New Testaments.
Yes, you did write about the twelve apostles but do they grant someone a temple worthy card?
A priest who hears my confession does not tell me whether or not I am cleared to receive communion for the next two years. It is not the same at all. I am always welcome to attend our church activities and celebrations. I am not kept out even if I need to go to confession.
There are Catholics who I am sure partake in the Eucharist though they are probably in need of confession, but they are not denied communion (unless it is a person who publicly supports abortion or some other serious sin).
Confession should be directly to God in prayer? I do pray to God in repentance at confession. All Catholics do. What is your misunderstanding of this sacrament? Do you think Catholics pray to the priest for repentance?
Don’t Mormons go to their bishops with their “sins”? Why don’t they just go straight to God? Our friend the bishop says he is very busy listening to people’s problems and giving them counsel. Our neighbor boy explained that any LDS boy in the neighborhood who doesn’t “straighten up” once he has been caught getting into trouble (drugs etc) will not be permitted by the bishop to go on a mission.
So, the bishop makes a lot of judgment calls, right?

I could easily answer each of your later points in your recent discussion with other posters, but you have precisely the kinds of justifications that you have wanted–don’t know why you bothered.

Are you referring to the LDS, I mean Catholic, poster who posted on this thread about LDS doctrine being infallible?
Please let us start a new thread about that one!
I would love to hear explanations about the every-changing LDS doctrine being infallible.
What justifications? If someone makes a claim I have a right to refute it USING LDS SCRIPTURE.

As far as the economics of temple building and the economics of paying craftsmen and workers to do excellent work, and the money circulating in an economy and thus creating jobs, then I see that is a topic that would probably not be understood by people who seem only to see money as being needed to help the poor directly rather than pay people to work and thus help the poor by providing them means for work and an income through that work.

Who is against creating jobs? However a shrine to secret rituals is not going to appeal to those who are not LDS or just plain curious.

So enjoy what you have, and be glad you’ve chosen what you’ve chosen, and I will do the same, with full understanding of the whys of my choices.

I haven’t chosen to be Catholic - there is no choice. Jesus Christ established only ONE church and He promised to stay with It until the end of time. To believe otherwise would be unthinkable.

 

[KathleenGee]

Agree.

It is simple to me. To not appoint successors is also to deny the reality of Christ as Savior and Redeemer of the world. And to deny the Apostles the right to have successors while Mormons can – considering the gravity of being witness to the Savior and Redeemer of the world and then to abandon that mission by not ensuring the continuation of the faith in union with the Holy Spirit – is ludicrous.

To do otherwise, one would indeed have to create a new doctrine of Who Jesus is, then going back to Who God is, and then going forward, have to create a new book in addition to the Bible and then re-arranging a new history and new practice and deny all other Christians.

The rite of Baptism is Catholic/Universal.

And you cannot baptize people against their will. God created all creatures free with their own intelligence and being. The human being is made free. God only recognizes the choices of that person’s free will. And if people are being initiated – you shouldn’t call it baptism – into Mormonism against their knowledge or will, then God doesn’t recognize it.

To initiate people into a belief system against their will goes against Judeo-Christian salvation history.

 

[lax16]

Agree.

It is simple to me. To not appoint successors is also to deny the reality of Christ as Savior and Redeemer of the world. And to deny the Apostles the right to have successors while Mormons can – considering the gravity of being witness to the Savior and Redeemer of the world and then to abandon that mission by not ensuring the continuation of the faith in union with the Holy Spirit – is ludicrous.

Yes, Jesus knew what He was doing! And God’s plan is complete.

To do otherwise, one would indeed have to create a new doctrine of Who Jesus is, then going back to Who God is, and then going forward, have to create a new book in addition to the Bible and then re-arranging a new history and new practice and deny all other Christians.

Yes, exactly. We cannnot recreate God into a new version (and make Him unlike the God of the Old Testament) then say His Plan did not work, His Promise was not fulfilled, and that His Son couldn’t make it last! To say that the Apostles hand-picked by Jesus Christ Himself couldn’t pass on the work after Jesus died is shocking!
Why would Jesus go through all that He did just to have it all fall apart?
Why would God promise a Messiah that couldn’t keep a church together?

The rite of Baptism is Catholic/Universal.

Yes, as I like to say, we Catholics are a motley crew! Come one, come all! Jesus wants all of us to come to Him!

And you cannot baptize people against their will. God created all creatures free with their own intelligence and being. The human being is made free. God only recognizes the choices of that person’s free will. And if people are being initiated – you shouldn’t call it baptism – into Mormonism against their knowledge or will, then God doesn’t recognize it.

Judaism and Christianity has never allowed for baptism of the dead.
We are very good at praying for the dead though! And that is why there is purgatory.
We really are all connected aren’t we - the living and the dead, the communion of saints…

To initiate people into a belief system against their will goes against Judeo-Christian salvation history.

Yes, and it relieves those of us still living of the obligation of praying for the souls of the dead.

 

[KathleenGee]

My final point on this is that as the Christian Mass had spread throughout the entire Roman empire by 150 AD, whose basic practice is like the one we have of the Roman/Latin rite, one can not attribute this as a sign of our faith being corrupted.

Mormons say in lieu of the corruption of faith after the first Apostles, there were righteous people among these Christians. However, that is implying as well however, that the successors to the Apostles – the bishops, presbyters (priests), and teachers who institutionalized faith through the development of defining doctrine were not.

Here is one description, that of Sunday Mass in Rome written by St. Justin the Martyr around 150 AD in consideration of the Mormon Temple now being erected in the countryside next to Rome. He did his writing from Rome.

"On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or countryside gather in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then, when the reader has finished, the president instructs and exhorts them to imitate these good things. Then we all rise together and pray…When our prayer is ended, bread and wine with water are brought forth, and the president offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability. The people assent, saying “Amen”; and there is a distribution to each of the Eucharistic elements. The deacons carry a portion to those who are absent.

Those who are able give willingly whatever sum they each think appropriate. The money collected is deposited with the president. He gives it, then, to comfort orphans, widows, and those who are wanting, through sickness or other cause, and those who are imprisoned, and strangers traveling among us. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

Sunday is when we hold our assembly because it is the first day, on which God brought forth the world from darkness and matter. On the same day, Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before Saturn’s day (Saturday); and on the day after Saturn’s day, which is the day of the sun, he appeared to His apostles and disciples and taught them these things, which we have submitted to you for your consideration." - First Apology 67

Lord Jesus, You are the True Light of the world that nothing of this world can conceal. You did not leave us orphans in darkness but guide us in all times and in every generation. Ame.

 

[SteveVH]

My final point on this is that as the Christian Mass had spread throughout the entire Roman empire by 150 AD, whose basic practice is like the one we have of the Roman/Latin rite, one can not attribute this as a sign of our faith being corrupted.

Mormons say in lieu of the corruption of faith after the first Apostles, there were righteous people among these Christians. However, that is implying as well however, that the successors to the Apostles – the bishops, presbyters (priests), and teachers who institutionalized faith through the development of defining doctrine were not.

Here is one description, that of Sunday Mass in Rome written by St. Justin the Martyr around 150 AD in consideration of the Mormon Temple now being erected in the countryside next to Rome. He did his writing from Rome.

"On the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or countryside gather in one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then, when the reader has finished, the president instructs and exhorts them to imitate these good things. Then we all rise together and pray…When our prayer is ended, bread and wine with water are brought forth, and the president offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability. The people assent, saying “Amen”; and there is a distribution to each of the Eucharistic elements. The deacons carry a portion to those who are absent.

Those who are able give willingly whatever sum they each think appropriate. The money collected is deposited with the president. He gives it, then, to comfort orphans, widows, and those who are wanting, through sickness or other cause, and those who are imprisoned, and strangers traveling among us. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

Sunday is when we hold our assembly because it is the first day, on which God brought forth the world from darkness and matter. On the same day, Jesus Christ our Savior rose from the dead. For he was crucified on the day before Saturn’s day (Saturday); and on the day after Saturn’s day, which is the day of the sun, he appeared to His apostles and disciples and taught them these things, which we have submitted to you for your consideration." - First Apology 67

Lord Jesus, You are the True Light of the world that nothing of this world can conceal. You did not leave us orphans in darkness but guide us in all times and in every generation. Ame.

What I find the most interesting is that Mormonism claims to be a restoration of the original Church, yet no uniquely Mormon doctrines can be found in the early Church. Instead they are distinctly Catholic, as you have demonstrated. They will answer “of course you can’t find them because all truth was lost after the death of the last Apostle and the Church tweaked scripture and history to hide the truth”.

I also find it interesting that if other “Apostles” were necessary, rather than their successors, the bishops, then why weren’t they appointed? It wasn’t as if all the Apostles died at the same time in a plane crash. If this was necessary, why, upon the death of any of them, wasn’t another immediately appointed in their place? Either they were just negligent in this most important duty, or Jesus had a really bad plan for his Church and would have known, after commanding them to “preach the gospel to all nations”, that it would only last into the first century. The whole idea stands upon nothing more than a claim by a man and is completely lacking in any historical evidence or common sense.

They forget that the Church belongs to Christ, it was His Church that was founded upon Peter, and if it fails, after He said it would never fail, then the logical conclusion must be that Christ failed.

 

[KathleenGee]

Amen to the responses of Lax and Steve…just the initial premise of Mormonism can not hold up – not to theology – but to human nature and native intelligence.

My intent is not to demean but to help others who are willing to come to the light of Christ.

 

[Stephen168]

It’s funny to see so many people rip on the LDS. and not call them Christian, they are probally the only people that act like decent christians. Most of my friends are LDS, because everyone else in this drug catering state of Florida, is a methhead, coke head pill head or crack head, drunk or prostitute. But, “don’t judge them, be victim instead” Mormons are more chrisitian then most people I know; they take care of there own.

By your definition the most Christian people, I’ve met were Muslims. But they never confused ‘being good’ with ‘being Christian.’ Mormons take care of their own and Christians take care of everyone else.

 

[KathleenGee]

Today, as in ancient Roman times, people were free to choose their own amount in giving alms. Tertullian said many converted to Christianity because of the love they had for each other.

The Catholic Church over time was the one that instituted hospitals and hospice, and education centers for the common people. Every parish since its beginnings, gives alms to those in need within the parish. I found out this past year that the parish contributions we give every Sunday often go to many, many non-Catholic community help organizations in our area. When we know a family is in need, people are very generous to help.

 

[The_One_Trinity]

Ive lived in Utah for 19 years now and from everything ive learned about this so-called christian religion is that they are all racist & hypocrites. I have no tolerance for these people at all. I know its not very christian to be this way but in the Mormon Capital (Salt Lake City) you build these feelings up. They dont like us and look down on us for being Catholic. They will argue till they are blue in the face that they have it all figured out and our religion that is nearly 2,000 years old is wrong. Im sorry for this, but ive seen and heard it with my own 2 eyes and ears. This is a slap in the Churches face to build a temple in Rome.

 

[ParkerD]

(1) Don’t Mormons go to their bishops with their “sins”?
(2) Why don’t they just go straight to God?
(3) Our friend the bishop says he is very busy listening to people’s problems and giving them counsel.
(4) Our neighbor boy explained that any LDS boy in the neighborhood who doesn’t “straighten up” once he has been caught getting into trouble (drugs etc) will not be permitted by the bishop to go on a mission.
(5) So, the bishop makes a lot of judgment calls, right?

(6) What justifications?
(7) If someone makes a claim I have a right to refute it USING LDS SCRIPTURE.

(8) I haven’t chosen to be Catholic - there is no choice. Jesus Christ established only ONE church and He promised to stay with It until the end of time. To believe otherwise would be unthinkable.

Lax16,
Here are brief responses:

1. Not unless they are the specific kinds of serious sins I had previously noted, so not generally, no.
2. They do. For the serious specific ones I mentioned before, it is a case of the apostles having been given a specific responsibility as described in the following verses:

1 Cor. 11: 27, 29
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

3 Ne. 18: 28-29
28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;
29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

1. Yes, but the word “problems” is not a synonym for the word “sins”. I suspect that more of his time is spent counseling about marital disharmony, family financial issues, and youth leadership issues than about how a person in his ward is doing in completing the repentance steps from a serious sin in their life.
2. As I had noted, the bishops follow specific instructions sent out by the apostles, including specific instructions regarding worthiness of missionaries before they are called.
3. The bishop certainly seeks divine guidance in counseling people, if that’s what you mean. He is also described as a “common judge in Israel.”
4. People justify their choices in life.
5. Yes, but that clearly does not mean you have understood what you quoted from LDS sources.
6. See 6.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,
Here are brief responses:

1. Not unless they are the specific kinds of serious sins I had previously noted, so not generally, no.
2. They do. For the serious specific ones I mentioned before, it is a case of the apostles having been given a specific responsibility as described in the following verses:

1 Cor. 11: 27, 29
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

3 Ne. 18: 28-29
28 And now behold, this is the commandment which I give unto you, that ye shall not suffer any one knowingly to partake of my flesh and blood unworthily, when ye shall minister it;
29 For whoso eateth and drinketh my flesh and blood unworthily eateth and drinketh damnation to his soul; therefore if ye know that a man is unworthy to eat and drink of my flesh and blood ye shall forbid him.

1. Yes, but the word “problems” is not a synonym for the word “sins”. I suspect that more of his time is spent counseling about marital disharmony, family financial issues, and youth leadership issues than about how a person in his ward is doing in completing the repentance steps from a serious sin in their life.
2. As I had noted, the bishops follow specific instructions sent out by the apostles, including specific instructions regarding worthiness of missionaries before they are called.
3. The bishop certainly seeks divine guidance in counseling people, if that’s what you mean. He is also described as a “common judge in Israel.”
4. People justify their choices in life.
5. Yes, but that clearly does not mean you have understood what you quoted from LDS sources.
6. See 6.

Hi Parker - All that matters is that Jesus Christ came as God promised. He is our Messiah and through Him we can find eternal life. He did not fail. He is the final sacrifice. He loves us and wants us to love Him. We do not need to go to the temple to please God as in the days of the OT- the perfect Sacrifice has been made.

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?…so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. Hebrews 9:12-14,28

By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus. Hebrews 3:1

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. Hebrews 4:14

called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” Hebrews 5:10

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Hebrews 7:26-27

But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:11-14

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker - All that matters is that Jesus Christ came as God promised. He is our Messiah and through Him we can find eternal life. He did not fail. He is the final sacrifice. He loves us and wants us to love Him. We do not need to go to the temple to please God as in the days of the OT- the perfect Sacrifice has been made.

Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?…so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. Hebrews 9:12-14,28

By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus. Hebrews 3:1

Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. Hebrews 4:14

called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” Hebrews 5:10

For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people’s, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. Hebrews 7:26-27

But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:11-14

Lax16,

The LDS who attend a temple after it is dedicated understand that the law of sacrifice has been fulfilled through Christ, and that the temple is not continuing the same function as the tabernacle or Solomon’s temple as regards animal sacrifices. However, the “sea” that held about 9,000 gallons of water was not to wash the priest’s hands, and thus not everything that was done in preparation for entering the temple or in the temple was described in the Bible (perhaps because we don’t have the words of the prophet Nathan who was Solomon’s contemporary).

I agree certainly that Christ did all that Paul wrote that He did, but the translation you have used for Hebrews 4:14, last word, should be “profession” in English and that makes better sense. The same difference goes for Hebrews 3:1. (That really is a substantive difference.)

Of course I agree that Christ did not fail, nor will He fail in His fully operative redemptive work which will have a far higher rate of “success” than attributed to Him by the Catholics whose opinions I have read. There will be far less people in “eternal damnation forever” than believed by the Catholics whose opinions I have read.

“He loves us and wants us to love Him.”

 

[flyonthewall]

Ive lived in Utah for 19 years now and from everything ive learned about this so-called christian religion is that they are all racist & hypocrites. I have no tolerance for these people at all. I know its not very christian to be this way but in the Mormon Capital (Salt Lake City) you build these feelings up. They dont like us and look down on us for being Catholic. They will argue till they are blue in the face that they have it all figured out and our religion that is nearly 2,000 years old is wrong. Im sorry for this, but ive seen and heard it with my own 2 eyes and ears. This is a slap in the Churches face to build a temple in Rome.

Your chip is showing…

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

The LDS who attend a temple after it is dedicated understand that the law of sacrifice has been fulfilled through Christ, and that the temple is not continuing the same function as the tabernacle or Solomon’s temple as regards animal sacrifices. However, the “sea” that held about 9,000 gallons of water was not to wash the priest’s hands, and thus not everything that was done in preparation for entering the temple or in the temple was described in the Bible (perhaps because we don’t have the words of the prophet Nathan who was Solomon’s contemporary).

Maybe the LDS understand it, but it is not based on Christianity and therefore not meant for all Christians.

I agree certainly that Christ did all that Paul wrote that He did, but the translation you have used for Hebrews 4:14, last word, should be “profession” in English and that makes better sense. The same difference goes for Hebrews 3:1. (That really is a substantive difference.)

The Douay-Rheims translation also uses “confession” and that is the closest to the original as it can get.

Of course I agree that Christ did not fail, nor will He fail in His fully operative redemptive work which will have a far higher rate of “success” than attributed to Him by the Catholics whose opinions I have read. There will be far less people in “eternal damnation forever” than believed by the Catholics whose opinions I have read.

Are you referring to baptism of the dead as success of Christ’s redemption?

Where have you read the opinions of Catholics who believe in eternal damnation forever? Purgatory is not eternal damnation so I am not sure what you are referring to?
I am not as concerned about opinions as I am doctrine.

**From the CCC:III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY **

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.604 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:605

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.606
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."607 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.608 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:

Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.609