Mormonism, Polygamy, and Warren Jeffs

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Praise God, Rebecca…you are set free and have much to offer others in leading them to Christ in the spirit of the true Church.
 
GaryTaylor said:
In other words the women would have to associate giving with sacrifice. So then you give because you somehow believe your getting something better in return. Therefore you do without, that which you give.
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Most definitely it is taught there is something in return: blessings from God.

But the way you’ve phrased it, I see again the dualist nature of Mormonism.

And thinking on this on my way home from our parish this evening, I realize there are differences that must be realized in order to distinguish what is going in Mormonism, and similar beliefs and practices among Catholic.

The first is, our doctrine of the priesthood of all believers…we all share in the priestly, prophetic and kingly office of Christ. This idea does not exist in Mormonism, in any form. A mother who makes the sign of the cross on her child’s forehead, while saying a quiet blessing, would never occur in Mormonism. If a woman wants a child to be blessed in Mormonism, she must call her husband, or another male Mormon.

In this example it isn’t the practices, per se, that define what is missing, but the understanding of who we are, the baptized, joined to Christ in every way, male and female. In Mormonism, a woman is joined to her husband, and the husband to a divine gift of priesthood. She, not having the intimate connection to Jesus Christ that us women in Catholicism have.

So, when it comes to Motherhood in Catholicism and Mormonism, a vital link is missing in Mormonism. A Catholic mother who is blessing her child is doing so by the virtue of her baptism into Christ, as a sharer of the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. This is profound to someone such as myself, who never heard of this in her life.

Second, is a document I read during my time in RCIA, which I don’t have time at the moment to dig out. It was at Vatican.va, and I believe it was an encyclical. At any rate, the role of women in Catholicism was encouraged to be involved, and women’s voices heard, at every level. While I’m not unrealistic, and can see this has yet to be implemented in some areas, the idea that is even there at all was pivotal for me. The voices of women are not heard in Mormonism and the male hierarchy is not saying anything about changing this.

I thought perhaps this might have changed over the years, since I left, and was checking out a website, “Feminist Mormon Housewives”…from what the women there are saying, no, women still do not have a voice in Mormonism.

And last, there is still a fear in Mormonism that women are trying to be men. It is a culture where gender roles are clearly divided, and a woman who crosses the divisions is viewed as trying to be a man. When, that is not the case. Women want to be women, which includes, being involved in our own likes and dislikes. Using our education, talents, passions in important, societal and cultural wide, discussions and decisions.

I was sitting in a meeting at our parish tonight, thinking, what this meeting would be like if its counterpart were being held in a Mormon church. Our DRE is male, and in Mormonism, an equivalent duty would always be male. Women would never be considered. It caused me to remember the last calling I had as a Mormon, which was the Sunday school secretary. The Sunday school organization in Mormonism, consisting of three people in leadership positions, always male.

A Sunday school secretary passes out roles and picks them up, and hands them off to some male leader (can’t remember who). I was aware the three men were meeting without me. So what is the point? It is a position of servitude, more like, make-work to give a girl in her late teens, out of high school and not married. (Mormons don’t know what to do with single women.)

So, I passed out roles, picked them up, gave them to some guy and then took off to friend’s houses to hang out for the rest of the day.

I was so incredibly bored as a Mormon. I am a thinking kind of person, and I realize now, being Catholic, that Mormonism just could not satisfy my thoughts. Which is the same as saying, it could not satisfy my heart.

I finally found what satisfies my heart, and it is not a what but a Who. 🙂 Our Lord, Jesus Christ. He is Who corresponds to my heart.

Peace.
 
RebeccaJ said:
The first is, our doctrine of the priesthood of all believers…we all share in the priestly, prophetic and kingly office of Christ. This idea does not exist in Mormonism, in any form. A mother who makes the sign of the cross on her child’s forehead, while saying a quiet blessing, would never occur in Mormonism. If a woman wants a child to be blessed in Mormonism, she must call her husband, or another male Mormon.
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It is wonderful that every baptised Christian has a share in the one priesthood of Christ. Every woman validly baptised holds the priesthood and can use that priesthood to bless and consecrate her home and her children.

And no Mormon, male or female, has any priesthood at all, despite all their boasting to the contrary.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
PaulDupre said:
It is wonderful that every baptised Christian has a share in the one priesthood of Christ. Every woman validly baptised holds the priesthood and can use that priesthood to bless and consecrate her home and her children.

And no Mormon, male or female, has any priesthood at all, despite all their boasting to the contrary.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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I agree!
 
RebeccaJ said:
The first is, our doctrine of the priesthood of all believers…we all share in the priestly, prophetic and kingly office of Christ. This idea does not exist in Mormonism, in any form. A mother who makes the sign of the cross on her child’s forehead, while saying a quiet blessing, would never occur in Mormonism. If a woman wants a child to be blessed in Mormonism, she must call her husband, or another male Mormon.

In this example it isn’t the practices, per se, that define what is missing, but the understanding of who we are, the baptized, joined to Christ in every way, male and female. In Mormonism, a woman is joined to her husband, and the husband to a divine gift of priesthood. She, not having the intimate connection to Jesus Christ that us women in Catholicism have.

So, when it comes to Motherhood in Catholicism and Mormonism, a vital link is missing in Mormonism. A Catholic mother who is blessing her child is doing so by the virtue of her baptism into Christ, as a sharer of the High Priesthood of Jesus Christ. This is profound to someone such as myself, who never heard of this in her life.
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This is not meant to cut down your experience at all, it’s meant as a smiley at the “profound”. Those of us who have heard of it, who were blessed by our mothers, and who as mothers bless our own children also find it profound. And in my case find it so sad, heartbreaking really, that Mormon women are cut off from such a deep and fortifying experience, an experience that brushes up against the healing found in the Sacraments of the Church. I would imagine a Mormon woman would be amazed or dumbfounded to find out they have the ability to “work” this way, again it is so very sad this situation for women in the LDS church.
RebeccaJ said:
Second, is a document I read during my time in RCIA, which I don’t have time at the moment to dig out. It was at Vatican.va, and I believe it was an encyclical. At any rate, the role of women in Catholicism was encouraged to be involved, and women’s voices heard, at every level. While I’m not unrealistic, and can see this has yet to be implemented in some areas, the idea that is even there at all was pivotal for me. The voices of women are not heard in Mormonism and the male hierarchy is not saying anything about changing this.
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Maybe here you are thinking of John Paul II’s Letter to Women he begins it by thanking women, women who are mothers, women who are wives, daughters, women who are consecrated. On women who work he says this:
Thank you, women who work! You are present and active in every area of life-social, economic, cultural, artistic and political. In this way you make an indispensable contribution to the growth of a culture which unites reason and feeling, to a model of life ever open to the sense of “mystery”, to the establishment of economic and political structures ever more worthy of humanity.
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Is the link I gave what you were thinking of?
 
RebeccaJ said:
It is a culture where gender roles are clearly divided, and a woman who crosses the divisions is viewed as trying to be a man. When, that is not the case. Women want to be women, which includes, being involved in our own likes and dislikes. Using our education, talents, passions in important, societal and cultural wide, discussions and decisions.
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Rebecca thanks for sharing, certainly it shows much growth. Without a doubt your experience and understanding of it has the capacity to free many others caught in this trap. I’m sorry you encountered and endured a false image men created in their own mind. Unfortunate this is actually taught, thats the real tragedy. Truth is for men in general this is not uncommon and many often build this image all on their own. To encourage this behavior is like pouring gas on a fire. Then they can’t seperate the image from who they really are. In other words they “think” the image is who they are. The period of womens liberation in the US comes immediately to mind. Its clear the work in this area isn’t complete.

Don’t allow your own humility to stop you from speaking the truth. Your truth will humble others in these situations, because they will know its the truth. The fact you were raised into this is all the more empowering. That eliminates the “you don’t understand because you were never here” defense, and accelerates growth.

Peace
 
Thanks Gary, that could have been the document you linked, or the one it references, “Mulieris Dignitatem”.

As for speaking out, I am a shy and quiet person, but, being a woman in a field that is predominantly male, I think just by working, my daily interactions with my male colleagues, says something on its own. 🙂

Twenty years ago I experienced sexism in the workplace a lot more than I do now. But not more than a month ago I was working in a shared workspace, in downtown Salt Lake. Two men were there, talking to each other very loudly on LDS subjects. One counseling the other that he should remember that he is the one who is receiving guidance from God, and so needs to lead with that in mind. I was fit to be tied at that point, but didn’t say anything. But then, the same guy starts talking to me, and I’m thinking, “why are you talking to me?” He said something about how unusual it is to have someone nice looking there working with them, which brought back a memory from 20 or so years ago, where a job candidate we were interviewing told me I was the only systems admin. who he had met that didn’t have a beard! That one sort of cracks me up. lol. I didn’t say anything to the LDS guy, but I did get up and move to a different area to work.
 
Ha ha… I remember those days…in the 1970’s, all the sex talk in the office…the remarks…

I had a friend who worked for a television studio, and the skirt chaser there who really bothered the women to the point it was sickening.

She would take his work and always put it at the bottom of the stack. I was promoted out of a hell hole, and once out of there heard that alot of people were glad I was out of there, and the foul mouth manager was sent back to work for a woman.

Oh those were the days!!
 
KathleenGee said:
Ha ha… I remember those days…in the 1970’s, all the sex talk in the office…the remarks…
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The office I’m in now isn’t much different. I tell the men I work with that for me it’s like showing up to work in a jr. high boy’s locker room. I tell them they remind me of my brothers, which, they take as a compliment. Funny stuff.
I had a friend who worked for a television studio, and the skirt chaser there who really bothered the women to the point it was sickening.
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She would take his work and always put it at the bottom of the stack. I was promoted out of a hell hole, and once out of there heard that alot of people were glad I was out of there, and the foul mouth manager was sent back to work for a woman.
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Oh those were the days!!
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We had a guy that talked to all the women with eyes on breasts. All the women in the office started to try to get his attention, in very exaggerated ways, up to our eyes. The same guy had a serious crush on one of the women and would play with her hair while working with her. She was soooo uncomfortable but wouldn’t say anything to him! We got together and sent off a couple of women to talk to HR because it was creeping us out too much and too often.

It’s the adventures of being a woman in the workplace. It’s a lot of fun! Seriously, I enjoy what I do, a lot. The oddness that occurs is rare, but it sure gives a punch to the day when it happens. lol.
 
Welllll, Rebecca…I had a friend in Seattle who transferred up…from Utah. She was originally from Texas with that drawl. She had long straight hair, perfect teach, super smart, meticulous…and a Barbie doll figure.

She told me the Mormons in Utah would come up from behind her and pick her up, hold her…she said the most aggressive male co-workers came from there…

Up here now, it is alot cooler…
 
KathleenGee said:
Welllll, Rebecca…I had a friend in Seattle who transferred up…from Utah. She was originally from Texas with that drawl. She had long straight hair, perfect teach, super smart, meticulous…and a Barbie doll figure.

She told me the Mormons in Utah would come up from behind her and pick her up, hold her…she said the most aggressive male co-workers came from there…

Up here now, it is alot cooler…
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🙂 Yeah HR depts. put the lid on that sort of things, once they learn of it.

But, we’ve gone off on some tangent!

I think the main point is, culturally, Mormonism supports a sexist view of women. That doesn’t mean they have an exclusive market there, but that view is pervasive and institutionalized in polygamous societies. Mormonism and Islam both reduce women to a functional role in relationship to men. One that puts men at the center, and is highly sexualized.

Modern, mainstream Mormonism includes teachings that seek to keep a lid on the extreme abuses that are inevitable in such an environment. Jeff’s took the lid off.
 
After reading this entire thread I thought I would bring up a serious consequence of the polygamist lifestyle and wish more Mormons of all types were aware of the danger.
It’s called Fumarase deficiency.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumarase_deficiency

A public awareness campaign may be in order. Perhaps doctors can try to educate their patients in the affected areas as the young women and men may not have access to the information any other way.
 
zaffiroborant said:
This is not meant to cut down your experience at all, it’s meant as a smiley at the “profound”. Those of us who have heard of it, who were blessed by our mothers, and who as mothers bless our own children also find it profound. And in my case find it so sad, heartbreaking really, that Mormon women are cut off from such a deep and fortifying experience, an experience that brushes up against the healing found in the Sacraments of the Church. I would imagine a Mormon woman would be amazed or dumbfounded to find out they have the ability to “work” this way, again it is so very sad this situation for women in the LDS church.

Maybe here you are thinking of John Paul II’s Letter to Women he begins it by thanking women, women who are mothers, women who are wives, daughters, women who are consecrated. On women who work he says this:

Is the link I gave what you were thinking of?
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Whoops Z, I thanked Gary for the article when it was you. Sorry.

As for profound, yes, I understand what you are saying. Thanks.
 
On the late o’clock news last night, the video recording of Warren Jeffs preparing his flock of very young female followers to be introduced to “pleasing him” was played. This was part of the evidence against him at trial. He told the girls in a hypnotic tone how fortunate they were not to be exposed to the world, that their destiny was to please him. And they replied, Yes, Mr. Jeffs, we don’t want to be in the world. And “you will not be alone, so don’t be frightened” he said. He called it being introduced to “heavenly fire.” The faces of the girls were blurred so they couldn’t be identified. Where were their parents? This is molestation on a massive scale. It was stunning, frightening, sickening, to hear that old perverted guy conning those girls who were so young — “and children will result from the heavenly fire” he told them. I probably got the facts a little confused, and may not have the quotes exactly right, but that was the gist of it. May God have mercy on those children!

Did anyone else see it who can give a more accurate report? I was in shock, I admit it.

Jim Dandy
 
Audio recordings that were presented in court against Warren Jeffs have been released, and are all over the news here in UT. At the time they were played in court, some of the jurors were in tears. I’m not going to listen to them. :nope:

As far as I’m concerned, the parents were complicit, sacrificing their daughters to Jeffs and who knows who else, and putting their sons out on the streets. The whole lot should be in prison.
 
No, Jim…I wasn’t able to, and then decided how I am already, shouldn’t listen to it.

I heard the mothers were present…they should go to prison for that and also for throwing their sons out.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Audio recordings that were presented in court against Warren Jeffs have been released, and are all over the news here in UT. At the time they were played in court, some of the jurors were in tears. I’m not going to listen to them. :nope:

As far as I’m concerned, the parents were complicit, sacrificing their daughters to Jeffs and who knows who else, and putting their sons out on the streets. The whole lot should be in prison.
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If the parents were victims of brainwashing from youth, it’s rather harsh of you to take that stand.
’
 
StrawberryJam said:
If the parents were victims of brainwashing from youth, it’s rather harsh of you to take that stand.
’
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Every adult member of that cult knows what is going on, participates, and does nothing to stop the abuses. They have lived among AZ and UT for decades. They are not as isolated as the news portrays them. They are shopping in the same stores, going to the same restaurants, that everyone else is. AZ and UT authorities have turned a blind eye. People here in UT are furious, the AG is silent, law enforcement makes excuses.

In Texas, they haven’t had the luxury of law enforcement looking the other way. I don’t think TX justice is finished with this group.
 
Also, when I was a kid, the Jeffs group lived a couple of miles away. At that time, they sent their elementary age children to the elementary I attended. With their quasi 19th century dress, everyone knew which kids were the “polygs”. Around 6th grade, they would be taken out of public schools, and would then attend Alta Academy. Which was not too far away from where I grew up. (Everyone knew where the polygamous compound was.)

In the recent trial of Warren Jeffs, a woman testified that when she was a child attending the Alta Academy, Warren Jeffs was principal, and had raped her. At this time, it was Warren’s father, Rulon, who was the leader of the entire group.
 
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